Cute new schiit speaker amps

[l0f3y3]

I think that you will find 1 Gjallahorn will be plenty for a 12X12 room if your only wanting 75db. Mine was with 87db speakers in a 12x12 room, but I was feeding it with a Freya+ and the tube mode adds 12db. So you might not need both of them depending on your pre-amp
The other point I was making is that the price of 2 Gjallahorns is really close to the price of 1 Vidar2, and 1 Vidar2 will power full range speakers way better than the Gjallahorn ever will. They both have there purpose, but for the 600 dollar price tag of 2 jellies, I would just get the Vidar2. Take the 15 days and return them if you need to and let us know how it goes. Schitt will not charge you a restocking fee if you return the amps for an upgraded product of theirs. So use that to your advantage.

Thanks much for the insight...very good to know. If monoblock listening is not significantly different, then I will likely return and exchange up to the Vidar 2 what are your thoughts on the Ageir? I imagine that people that buy a Vidar will mull over the selection. Does it come down to heat, power consumption or possible reliability issues...or simply personal taste in the difference in presentation between the two?

 

[Hatto]

No. Wrong. Not at full range and not even resembling a musical experience.

Have you considered how speakers sensitivity ratings are measured? -To which standard (if any) and in which frequency windows? Is it 1 kHz? 300 - 3.000 Hz? Pink noise?

That's a lot of questions.

Loudspeaker Measurements Standard: Our Procedure for Objectively Analyzing Speaker Performance

The Audioholics Loudspeaker Measurements Standard objectively measures performance of speaker systems. Frequency response, distortion, sensitivity, polar & listening window response, impedance, etc.

www.audioholics.com

Speaker Data - Preference Ratings & Graphs

Speaker Preference Ratings & Graphs

sites.google.com

You brought up a good point, I don't exactly know how speakers sensitivity ratings are measured, but judging from the graph you shared:

Assuming the graph is charted under constant power, the SPL over the entire spectrum varies +-3dB (dip: 78dB, peak 84dB) at around 81dB average for on-axis listening position (red axis), which corresponds to +-3.7% fluctuation. The power differential between the dip (78dB) and peak (84dB) of the on-axis listening position is just 0.2W for 88dB/W/m rated sensitivity at 1m.

Sensitivity differential across the audible spectrum doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference in terms of power requirements.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

You brought up a good point, I don't exactly know how speakers sensitivity ratings are measured, but judging from the graph you shared:

Assuming the graph is charted under constant power, the SPL over the entire spectrum varies +-3dB (dip: 78dB, peak 84dB) at around 81dB average for on-axis listening position (red axis), which corresponds to +-3.7% fluctuation. The power differential between the dip (78dB) and peak (84dB) of the on-axis listening position is just 0.2W for 88dB/W/m rated sensitivity at 1m.

Sensitivity differential across the audible spectrum doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference in terms of power requirements.

Notice that the x-axis is starting at 200 Hz.
Also that this example is done by keeping a 2.83 V signal constant output. It doesn't show how much current the amplifier is going to supply to keep that voltage.

 

[threni]

...IMHO it's a mess...!!!...looks a pile of Schitt...!!!...

It's not a mess - it's an L1 cache!

 

[Presb4]

The Freya+ doesn’t add 12db of SPL. It adds voltage gain that may or may not be needed to hit maximum wattage from the amp.

Aaron,
Thank you for keeping the conversation technically correct.
But the point I was making to the original poster was that a tube pre-amp can add gain and in a low wattage system which is what we are talking about here, if you are looking for every last SPL, then don't forget the effect a tube pre-amp can have.
The way I should have stated it is, In my system, in my home, with the Freya+ feeding the Gjallahorn, I measure a 12db increase in SPL when switching between passive and active tube modes while sitting on my couch 7 feet away from my speakers while using a db measuring app on my phone.
But I figured that was implied with the way I wrote the post, if it was not interpreted that way, I'm sorry and my point is better documented now.
Do you have the same system that I have and measure something different than I? If so I would like to know.
Thanks

 

[Hatto]

Notice that the x-axis is starting at 200 Hz.
Also that this example is done by keeping a 2.83 V signal constant output. It doesn't show how much current the amplifier is going to supply to keep that voltage.

I can't comment any further without seeing the impedance graph over the spectrum.

However, the fact still remains that the power differential between 78dB SPL and 84dB SPL at on-axis listening position is still 0.2W for 88dB/W/m rated sensitivity (at any given frequency range) at 1m.

It requires just 2.1W to drive a pair of 88dB/W/m rated speakers to 88dB SPL peak at 2m at their "rated sensitivity conditions". Increasing the power to 5W would give you 5dB more headroom above that. The difference between the average listening level and 93dB SPL should be enough to provide sufficient headroom for differences across the spectrum.
Any speaker with rated sensitivity over 88dB/W/m would add further to that headroom.

The power requirements only begin becoming an issue when you want to drive speakers to an SPL above the numerical value of their rated sensitivity.

 

[Presb4]

Thanks much for the insight...very good to know. If monoblock listening is not significantly different, then I will likely return and exchange up to the Vidar 2 what are your thoughts on the Ageir? I imagine that people that buy a Vidar will mull over the selection. Does it come down to heat, power consumption or possible reliability issues...or simply personal taste in the difference in presentation between the two?

Before buying the Schiit Vidar2, I considered the Aegir as its generally considered a slightly warmer sounding amp to some, but I went with the Vidar2 for the follow reasons and this thinking can also be applied to the Gjallahorn.

For a general purpose HIFI amp, I needed something that I could use in a number of different rooms and with a number of different speakers. I was was not sure how much power I would need in the future but figured I needed more than 20 to 40 watts per channel to be safe and have the headroom depending on the speakers I might pair with it. Because of this I knew I would need 2 Aegirs running in mono to achieve that. From a price point that was a con as 2 Aegirs would just barely get me to what 1 Vidar2 would have in power.

But even if I was ok with that price and performance, 2 Aegirs in mono = 80 watt per channel compared to 1 Vidar2 at 100 watts per channel, I would still have to consider the ohm rating of the speakers. As my tastes might change over the years this amp will need to be flexible.

I had to think about how the amp bridges the load to run in mono mode, different amps can be wired differently, but in the case of the Aegir, Vidar2 and even the Gjallahorn for that matter. The amps are stereo amps that can be bridged to function in mono. But when this is done, the amp will see a load that is half of the speaker rating, so a pair of 8 ohm speakers will load the amp as would a pair of 4 ohm speakers, and here is where I would get into trouble, a pair of 4 ohm speakers will load the amp the same as 2 ohm speakers. This is why Schiit generally does not provide a 4 ohm mono rating on some of these amps (aegir).
In reality many speakers are a 6ohm average load at best and most are / or dip down to a 4ohm load regardless of what they are rated at. So if I went with the 2 Aegir or 2 Gjallahorn set up in mono, it would limit me to a small selection of speakers I could run at the higher SPL levels or I would have to restrict the volume to prevent the amps from tripping into thermal protection mode.

So back to my original objective, I wanted a general purpose amp that I could use in a multitude of ways without all the gotchas and the single Vidar 2 checked that box for me, and it was more cost effective too. I considered all of the above when thinking, "do I get 2 Rekkrs and run them mono or 1 Gjallarhorn and run in stereo for my desktop? I went with 1 Gjallarhorn and I'm happy I did.

I have not listened to the Aegir in my home, so I don't know how the Vidar2 and Aegir differ in sound Q. But I can say that the Freya+ with some Nos Sylvania 6NS7 GT "bad boy" tubes feeding the Vidar2 is amazing to my ears.

I hope that help.

 

[AaronJ]

Aaron,
Thank you for keeping the conversation technically correct.
But the point I was making to the original poster was that a tube pre-amp can add gain and in a low wattage system which is what we are talking about here, if you are looking for every last SPL, then don't forget the effect a tube pre-amp can have.
The way I should have stated it is, In my system, in my home, with the Freya+ feeding the Gjallahorn, I measure a 12db increase in SPL when switching between passive and active tube modes while sitting on my couch 7 feet away from my speakers while using a db measuring app on my phone.
But I figured that was implied with the way I wrote the post, if it was not interpreted that way, I'm sorry and my point is better documented now.
Do you have the same system that I have and measure something different than I? If so I would like to know.
Thanks

All it means is you will drive the amp to its full power at a lower position on the volume dial. Sure you just added 12db of gain at the push of a button so it will instantaneously play louder. It doesn’t actually give the amp capability to drive the speakers to higher SPL than its maximum rated output. This doesn’t have anything to do with any combination of preamp and power amp.

Point being a preamp doesn't improve upon the amp's limitations.

The Gjallahorn is not going to be happy being pushed. Schiit's own published specs show rising distortion starting at 100mW. In mono it starts bowing a bit higher but it's not much better. Granted those 100mW are quite clean indicating it's perfectly suited for desktop and bedroom systems. Running these in mono is a solution searching for a problem and will turn into a system that takes up a large footprint and a mess of cabling.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I can't comment any further without seeing the impedance graph over the spectrum.

However, the fact still remains that the power differential between 78dB SPL and 84dB SPL at on-axis listening position is still 0.2W for 88dB/W/m rated sensitivity (at any given frequency range) at 1m.

It requires just 2.1W to drive a pair of 88dB/W/m rated speakers to 88dB SPL peak at 2m at their "rated sensitivity conditions". Increasing the power to 5W would give you 5dB more headroom above that. The difference between the average listening level and 93dB SPL should be enough to provide sufficient headroom for differences across the spectrum.
Any speaker with rated sensitivity over 88dB/W/m would add further to that headroom.

The power requirements only begin becoming an issue when you want to drive speakers to an SPL above the numerical value of their rated sensitivity.

You haven't really studied the subject enough.
This dB/W/m. rating in question. Investigate how that has come to be. In which frequency window have the manufacturer measured it?

You will find it is not full spectrum.

And when you know this, you may want to read about where in the frequency spectrum most energy in music lies next.
Perhaps even look at the impedance graph for your speakers in the lower spectrum.

If you do the above and understand it you will stop worshipping your abysmal amplifier.

 

[Hatto]

You haven't really studied the subject enough. This dB/W/m. rating in question. Investigate how that has come to be. In which frequency window have the manufacturer measured it? You will find it is not full spectrum. And when you know this, you may want to read about where in the frequency spectrum most energy in music lies next. Perhaps even look at the impedance graph for your speakers in the lower spectrum. If you do the above and understand it you will stop worshipping your abysmal amplifier.

The point I'm trying to make is independent of any amplifier. I'm coming across with numbers based on calculations, yet all I'm reading are mere words now ad hominem at that.

Would you be so kind to demonstrate calculations for an actual pair of speakers (that you have full access to technical details) with at least 88dB/W/m rated sensitivity, dropping under 75dB SPL (@ 2m distance) at some frequency range despite being fed with 5W of power?

 

[Franknice]

I have the original Fortes with the standard Crites replacement drivers and crossovers connected to a single Gjallarhorn with a Freya S fed by a Cambridge CNX2. My acoustically treated (basic) room is 13 X 14. I don't listen at concert levels. I'm extremely pleased.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

The point I'm trying to make is independence of any amplifier. I'm coming across with numbers based on calculations, yet all I'm reading are mere words now ad hominem at that.

Would you be so kind to demonstrate calculations for an actual pair of speakers (that you have full access to technical details) with at least 88dB/W/m rated sensitivity, dropping under 75dB SPL (@ 2m distance) at some frequency range despite being fed with 5W of power?

Well I think it is well understood that most energy lies in the lower registers.

Does bass really require more power?

Look at pretty much any review where someone upgraded their amplifier, for speakers or headphones, and the number one first thing they will always say is, "there's more bass now." Does such a universal concept have any technical basis? When you reach the power limit of an amplifier, is the bass...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Hatto]

Well I think it is well understood that most energy lies in the lower registers.

Does bass really require more power?

Look at pretty much any review where someone upgraded their amplifier, for speakers or headphones, and the number one first thing they will always say is, "there's more bass now." Does such a universal concept have any technical basis? When you reach the power limit of an amplifier, is the bass...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Still don't see any numbers to your point. What you're doing remains as FUD unless you have the calculations and numbers.

 

[quimbo]

My Gjallahorn arrived last night and I added it to my home desktop chain BiFrost 2/64 > Lokius > Lyr3 >Gjallahorn. I have a pair of AV123 ELT525M speakers that have been in a closet for the last 10 or so years. Source is lossless flac streamed thru a Allo USBridge Sig via the BiFrost USB input. Speakers are on my desktop, 3 feet from my ears and 4 feet apart from each other

Initial listen with multiple genres including classical and hip hop (spouses genre of choice) is that this 'cute new schiit speaker amp' completes my desktop and allows me to use some decent speakers purchased years ago. No issues achieving any volume i want to listen to. The Gjallahorn has enough power to listen in the next room over while doing chores, etc.;

Not concerned with measurements, lack of this or that, etc;, happy with the choice and being able to resurrect some old speakers (these were work desktop speakers driven by a Tweak City Gizmo which is still in a drawer somewhere)

 

[Hapo]

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Still don't see any numbers to your point. What you're doing remains as FUD unless you have the calculations and numbers.

Edit: One more try anyway. Just got my coffee..

Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

E.G. you need 10 dB more at 100 Hz to make it as perceived loud as 1000 Hz. Even more at lower frequencies. Below calculations are just with the 10 dB difference.
The fletcher munson curve below I have sketched the typical window for sensitivity measurements and further down in the calculations I've assumed a speaker sensitivity of 80 dB/W/m.
So you can say, well that's why bass drivers needs to be larger than mid and treble to get a coherent response from the speaker e.g. raising the sensitivity of the bass driver to levels that somewhat match the other spectrum by making a larger surface area. Yeah, of course, but that also means more work needs to be done, more air moved, more power.
Amplifiers are voltage amplifiers. It takes a small voltage signal and amplifies it. Voltage x Current is Watt. If the amplifier at a given point can't supply enough current the voltage will drop.
At 2.83 V as sensitivity ratings many times are measured at, the voltage is constant and a fine curve can be drawn from the speaker. This doesn't say anything about the current needed without a impedance graph.

 

[Hatto]

Edit: One more try anyway. Just got my coffee..

Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

E.G. you need 10 dB more at 100 Hz to make it as perceived loud as 1000 Hz. Even more at lower frequencies. Below calculations are just with the 10 dB difference.
The fletcher munson curve below I have sketched the typical window for sensitivity measurements and further down in the calculations I've assumed a speaker sensitivity of 80 dB/W/m.


View attachment 269475
View attachment 269472
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View attachment 269474

Fletcher Munson curves are for perceived loudness, not SPL. If you want to match perceived loudness across the spectrum, you can shape your output with EQ accordingly and then pass through amplification AFTERWARDS, you don't need extra amplification power to compensate for that. Therefore your "calculations" based on 70dB/W/m sensitivity are utterly useless.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Fletcher Munson curves are for perceived loudness, not SPL. If you want to match perceived loudness, you can shape your output with EQ accordingly and then pass through amplification AFTERWARDS, you don't need extra amplification power to compensate for that.

Yeah but that's why bass drivers need to be larger to achieve coherent sound from the speaker. It needs to move more air to accomodate for the F&M curve. In other words it needs to do more work = power.

EDIT: Actually you just said it yourself: You need more energy down there. How? EQ. What does 10 dB EQ means in the output stage of amplification? 10 dB is 10 dB in pre-amp or power amp..

 

[Hatto]

Yeah but that's why bass drivers need to be larger to achieve coherent sound from the speaker. It needs to move more air to accomodate for the F&M curve. In other words it needs to do more work = power.

EDIT: Actually you just said it yourself: You need more energy down there. How? EQ. What does 10 dB EQ means in the output stage of amplification? 10 dB is 10 dB in pre-amp or power amp..

You are confusing loudness with SPL, they are NOT the same.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

You are confusing loudness with SPL, they are NOT the same.

No. But they are related. Can't say anything about SPL without knowing the exact speaker measurements.

Why is it, you think, that bass drivers are larger? Is it because it does more work or less work? Why does it need to do more work? -Because of the perceived loudness curve and because of masterings have taken this in account in the studio.
*Weighting