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Cute new schiit speaker amps

Hatto

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Meanwhile, removing the SYS from the stack, I decided on a new configuration which now takes virtually no extra space at all:

20230310_124458.jpg

With absolute zero hiss/hum, very loud output without any distortion (even at full volume), it makes my ears happy as much as my eyes.
 

Elgrosso

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The EMI arena is more complicated that I'll dare enter but I know that powerful transformers generate EM field in close proximity no matter well designed and shielded. That's why I don't like the idea of having the AC-DC conversion device close to rest of the electronics. This isn't much of a problem with smaller electronics like DACs, headphone amps but certainly a challenge with (class A or A/B) speaker amps, since the AC-DC conversion is almost always integrated into the chasis. That is one of the reasons I was so excited about the Rekkr which is a class A/B powered by a wall-wart, and it is dead silent even at point-zero.

The reason that hum is reduced to barely audible when you disassembled the device on the bench may be just because of the fact that you moved the transformer away from the rest of the electronics or electrically isolated it from the chasis, rather than the fact that you dampened the physical vibrations by placing it on a piece of cloth. The rubber pieces you placed around the chasis might have worked through electrical isolation, rather than vibration dampening. These are not absolute claims, just possibilities to keep in mind.

I don't exactly know how, but design symmetry helps reduce the effects of EMI sourcing from the transformer, possibly due to effects of EMI at equal distance cancelling itself on both channels. I'm sure there are more knowledgeable people here who can explain this in better detail. Unfortunately the physical layout of G-horn is not ideal at all. The toroidal transformer is very powerful (80VA), asymmetrically placed and too close to the rest of the electronics. I would be very suprised to see G-horn to be a zero-hum amp under these conditions.

Another trick might be isolating the toroidal transformer with a Faraday cage within the case.
Same here, that’s what I liked about the Rekkr.
But even for my limited needs, 4 would not be enough.

You might be right, placement and/or proximity must have an effect.
Iota pa3 is symmetrical, and does not hum, while Cambridge axa25 is not symmetrical, and did hum.
Is there a real relation here?

I didn’t spend much time optimising it with the transfo out but I do remember the cloth did most of the trick.
It would also sound differently when manipulated by hand.
Could be the weight distribution pressuring wires differently (it felt like few kgs), or/and in relation to my ears.
Placed vertically didn’t help for example.
(Here I must say I did search about safety before touching it “live”, didn’t find anything for this dumb case so just did it since it’s all wrapped, let me know if I should have died...).
Just nude on wood it did still hum, but I don’t remember how much less.
But outside + cloth was the best, better than inside + rubber and stuff.
Cloth was also thicker than the felt I finally used, it’s just too tight in there.
That’s why I thought about a new case, a symmetrical build with a bigger transformer feeding both, maybe audio grade.
Sure it’s probably going too far…but I entertain the idea!

About electric isolation, I’d be curious if the rubber did anything since the screws could still conduct from cover to the sides.
I had to raise it anyway for the new height and wires.
Thought about covering it with a metal box, but a faraday cage would mean butchering the case a lot.
And it’s quite impossible to add even just a metal plate between it and the pcb.
I would rather replace it with a Toroidy, not that expensive for the regular audio grade, but a little too big for the supreme one.

Btw, in my conversation with Schiit they acknowledged it could hum, but I don’t want people to think it’s a crazy hum.
 

Hatto

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Same here, that’s what I liked about the Rekkr.
But even for my limited needs, 4 would not be enough.

You might be right, placement and/or proximity must have an effect.
Iota pa3 is symmetrical, and does not hum, while Cambridge axa25 is not symmetrical, and did hum.
Is there a real relation here?

I didn’t spend much time optimising it with the transfo out but I do remember the cloth did most of the trick.
It would also sound differently when manipulated by hand.
Could be the weight distribution pressuring wires differently (it felt like few kgs), or/and in relation to my ears.
Placed vertically didn’t help for example.
(Here I must say I did search about safety before touching it “live”, didn’t find anything for this dumb case so just did it since it’s all wrapped, let me know if I should have died...).
Just nude on wood it did still hum, but I don’t remember how much less.
But outside + cloth was the best, better than inside + rubber and stuff.
Cloth was also thicker than the felt I finally used, it’s just too tight in there.
That’s why I thought about a new case, a symmetrical build with a bigger transformer feeding both, maybe audio grade.
Sure it’s probably going too far…but I entertain the idea!

About electric isolation, I’d be curious if the rubber did anything since the screws could still conduct from cover to the sides.
I had to raise it anyway for the new height and wires.
Thought about covering it with a metal box, but a faraday cage would mean butchering the case a lot.
And it’s quite impossible to add even just a metal plate between it and the pcb.
I would rather replace it with a Toroidy, not that expensive for the regular audio grade, but a little too big for the supreme one.

Btw, in my conversation with Schiit they acknowledged it could hum, but I don’t want people to think it’s a crazy hum.
This is all very interesting to know and think about. Thanks so much for sharing.

Iota pa3 is symmetrical, and does not hum, while Cambridge axa25 is not symmetrical, and did hum.
Is there a real relation here?
My limited observations sugggest there's a correlation but not sure about the mechanism (or additional factors) in place.
Also if you look ar Vidar's design for example, (in addition to being symmetrical) you'll see that the transformer is as far away from the electronics as possible although it's a traditional transformer (which has more EM leak than toroidal as far as I know).

It would also sound differently when manipulated by hand.
No surprises there as your body is an electrical mass that would interfere with the transformer.

I'm intuitively more distant to the idea of physical vibrations creating and audible result, but I might be wrong.

I'll bookmark this post as a reference to compare with any future observations.
 
D

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This is all very interesting to know and think about. Thanks so much for sharing.


My limited observations sugggest there's a correlation but not sure about the mechanism (or additional factors) in place.
Also if you look ar Vidar's design for example, (in addition to being symmetrical) you'll see that the transformer is as far away from the electronics as possible although it's a traditional transformer (which has more EM leak than toroidal as far as I know).


No surprises there as your body is an electrical mass that would interfere with the transformer.

I'm intuitively more distant to the idea of physical vibrations creating and audible result, but I might be wrong.

I'll bookmark this post as a reference to compare with any future observations.
You can't generalize transformers like that.
You can have good EI transformers and bad toroidals and vice versa.
What you can say for sure, is the better efficiency in toroidals on comparable size but otherwise no rule of thumb. Neither of the below amps. have any noise, hiss or hum.

Yamaha A-S1000-->
1678767846305.png

Yamaha P3200 (Pro amp)-->
1678767721124.png
 

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Elgrosso

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I’m a bit tired of unplugging/plugging everything in the rack but next round I’ll report next time I play.
I might remove the pcb next, to look at the bottom circuitry, and see if the power section could be cut out for an eventual symmetric and all in one build.

Funny thing is that I tried to measure the noise between power off & on, with basic umik close to the amp, and REW in RTA mode.
It was raining so the noise floor was high, and it was barely noticeable, maybe just little spikes around 50 and 100Hz, couldn't be sure.
It was clear by ear, and certainly didn't feel like 50hz, maybe it was just masked by the higher FR noise.
Unfortunately I have the habit to not save my .mdats anymore (just way too many everywhere).
 

mhardy6647

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You can have good EI transformers and bad toroidals and vice versa.

A toroid should be better than an E-I core PT in terms of the amount of 'escaped' EM radiation, higher efficiency, and less mechanical noise (hum), right?
I.e., I am not sure how one gets a "bad" toroid other than QC failure or really, REALLY poor design or execution (i.e., what I would consider "malpractice").
 

fpitas

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A toroid should be better than an E-I core PT in terms of the amount of 'escaped' EM radiation, higher efficiency, and less mechanical noise (hum), right?
I.e., I am not sure how one gets a "bad" toroid other than QC failure or really, REALLY poor design or execution (i.e., what I would consider "malpractice").
Well...in the real world, any DC on the line will get the toroid upset and humming long before the EI transformer.

 

mhardy6647

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Well...in the real world, any DC on the line will get the toroid upset and humming long before the EI transformer.
Huh. I did not know that. :(
Would (might) some toroids be 'better' than others with respect to such sensitivity to DC?

I guess "improvement" is always, essentially, a zero-sum game.
 

fpitas

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Huh. I did not know that. :(
Would (might) some toroids be 'better' than others with respect to such sensitivity to DC?

I guess "improvement" is always, essentially, a zero-sum game.
I think a gapped toroid might be better, but that kind of defeats the reason to use a toroid.

But all is not lost: see the article above.
 

GPx86

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I got a couple Gjallarhorns. Very good. 10W power draw each from the wall when idle. 11W at my normal listening volumes (~60dB) and 12-13W when things get too loud (75-77dB). I am 7.5 feet from each speaker and they are 7 feet apart. They are working very well for what I need them for. They barely get warm to the touch after several hours of use. Dead silent at idle.

schiities-full.jpeg
 

bineverlast

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I currently have 2 x Outlaw 2220 monoblocks powering a pair of Elac DBR65 speakers.
The DAC/Pre-amp is FiiO K9 Pro.
The loudest volume I can tolerate on the preamp is around 40%, normal use is around 30%. That's troubling me because I know the preamp does not perform well at that low volume. I've used this preamp with multiple amp/speaker combos, the ideal volume for best sound on the preamp is around 70%.
Frankly, I need weaker monoblocks. The Outlaw 2220s have way too much power for my usage. I need something weaker so that I can crank up the preamp to its ideal level at 70%.
The Gjallarhorn seems interesting, if it can truly offers full sound at low power, then it may be what I need.
Any thoughts?
 

Elgrosso

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You could measure the voltage out of your amp to check what you currently use and maybe convince yourself for less?
This would really give you the idea of what you use on average and what you eventually need to go full blast (with still headroom).

About the « best » range for a pre amp/amp, noise/thd etc related, that was my idea too, but honestly I’m not sure it’s a valid concern.
 

bineverlast

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Im not too technical with measurements, nor do i have the tools to be. (Wrong forum, i know right?)
I just know from listening that regardless of power level of the amp (tried no less than 10 amps), the preamp needs to be in the 60-80% range to have impactful bass, full and warm sound.
 

Hatto

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I currently have 2 x Outlaw 2220 monoblocks powering a pair of Elac DBR65 speakers.
The DAC/Pre-amp is FiiO K9 Pro.
The loudest volume I can tolerate on the preamp is around 40%, normal use is around 30%. That's troubling me because I know the preamp does not perform well at that low volume. I've used this preamp with multiple amp/speaker combos, the ideal volume for best sound on the preamp is around 70%.
Frankly, I need weaker monoblocks. The Outlaw 2220s have way too much power for my usage. I need something weaker so that I can crank up the preamp to its ideal level at 70%.
The Gjallarhorn seems interesting, if it can truly offers full sound at low power, then it may be what I need.
Any thoughts?
What's your approx. listening distance?
Couldn't find anything under Elac DBR65, could you be referring to Elac DBR62 speakers?
 

bineverlast

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What's your approx. listening distance?
Couldn't find anything under Elac DBR65, could you be referring to Elac DBR62 speakers?
Yup. Typo, it's DBR62. They are computer speakers so Im about 3 feet from them when im working and 6 when i move my chair back for music and movies
 

Hatto

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Yup. Typo, it's DBR62. They are computer speakers so Im about 3 feet from them when im working and 6 when i move my chair back for music and movies
I wouldn't worry about getting loud enough at those distances even with a single Rekkr, let alone 2 G-horns. Even with 2W rating of the Rekkr, you can attain 86.7 dB SPL peaks, which is the equivalent of 74 dB SPL average with enough headroom for 25 dB dynamic range.

If you have a single G-horn, it would go as loud as 82 dB SPL average (95 dB SPL peak) under the same conditions.
 
D

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I wouldn't worry about getting loud enough at those distances even with a single Rekkr, let alone 2 G-horns. Even with 2W rating of the Rekkr, you can attain 86.7 dB SPL peaks, which is the equivalent of 74 dB SPL average with enough headroom for 25 dB dynamic range.

If you have a single G-horn, it would go as loud as 82 dB SPL average (95 dB SPL peak) under the same conditions.
Not full scale it won't.
 
D

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At again with your subjective, unsubstantiated FUD...
"Science". Look it up. Links in nearby thread. Have a good read.

I'm finding it funny you call it subjective. Shows you haven't really looked at any of the documentation or links on the subject. Just treading the same waters. People getting your advice may also want to read a bit about headroom and dynamic range.

I'll link to something new this time. Sharing is caring-->


 
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Hatto

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"Science". Look it up. Links in nearby thread. Have a good read.

I'm finding it funny you call it subjective. Shows you haven't really looked at any of the documentation or links on the subject. Just treading the same waters. People getting your advice may also want to read a bit about headroom and dynamic range.

I'll link to something new this time. Sharing is caring-->


So what? You think the only way to barely hear some bass at 60dB SPL, is to expose our ears to mids/highs at 95 dB SPL?

Please follow up with some numbers and walk us through your calculations, if you can, that is.
 
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