CEntrance Hifi-M8 V2 Review (DAC and headphone amplifier)

[SIY]

I wonder how long it will take to approve the Asio driver?

Their website says "Note 2: HiFi-M8 will be supported by upcoming ASIO driver version 9, currently in final beta test. It will be released soon. "

It's interesting that they don't say that they're fixing the driver issues with the other products. When I tested it, the problems with the MixerFace were particularly severe. Maybe Michael can clarify: is the upcoming driver fix across the board or specific to the HiFi-M8 only?

 

[radioman]

Their website says "Note 2: HiFi-M8 will be supported by upcoming ASIO driver version 9, currently in final beta test. It will be released soon. "

It's interesting that they don't say that they're fixing the driver issues with the other products. When I tested it, the problems with the MixerFace were particularly severe. Maybe Michael can clarify: is the upcoming driver fix across the board or specific to the HiFi-M8 only?

An experienced reviewer would certainly know that an OS driver cannot fix hardware issues, such as out of band noise. Which is why we have upgraded the codec, and now the product is fine.

 

[radioman]

2 weeks more... I wonder how long it will take to approve the Asio driver? Really interested in the outcome of this....

We are giving our staff some well-deserved time off for the holidays. Expecting to return to this in Q1, but meantime, the product is popular and fulfillment is keeping us quite busy. If you have a M8 and want to test out the beta driver, please reach out by email.

 

[SIY]

An experienced reviewer would certainly know that an OS driver cannot fix hardware issues, such as out of band noise. Which is why we have upgraded the codec, and now the product is fine.

I didn't mention the out of band noise issues, but glad to hear you fixed that product defect.

 

[radioman]

I didn't mention the out of band noise issues, but glad to hear you fixed that product defect.

This community would certainly take issue with your subjective statement, as humans cannot hear beyond 20kHz. Besides, don't you think bringing other products into the conversation is off topic?

 

[SIY]

This community would certainly take issue with your subjective statement, as humans cannot hear beyond 20kHz. Besides, don't you think bringing other products into the conversation is off topic?

I'm just asking if the new driver you've talked about will cover products other than the M8. Will it?

 

[radioman]

I'm just asking if the new driver you've talked about will cover products other than the M8. Will it?

Don't want to get in trouble with the OT Police

Regarding other products, please contact us by email or via the website. Happy to help!

 

[ThesyconSucks]

2 weeks more... I wonder how long it will take to approve the Asio driver? Really interested in the outcome of this....

Hi, I made this account just to respond to this question. It's a valid question, but you have no idea how messed up the driver signing pipeline is...

The issue about getting the driver approved by ASIO is that they have to go through Thesycon. The fact that the DAC works at all with Windows without driver support strongly suggests that they have UAC2 descriptors in the USB endpoint. Exclusive mode drivers built on UAC2 for Windows need to be signed by Thesycon for UAC2 compatibility.

Thesycon drivers cost around 5 grand every six months, 2 grand for their PoS SDK, and ~500 bucks per 6 months for their broken driver customization kit.

Okay, so the really stupid part is that Microsoft knew they had a garbage audio subsystem, so they pay Thesycon to implement and support UAC2 in Windows instead of integrating it via WSL2. So Thesycon pushes updates as often as Microsoft lets them, which break backwards compatibility with older Thesycon drivers, without completely disabling the devices. Microsoft doesn't see a problem with this, since the audio playback still works, but it's an intentional bloating and sabotage of the Windows audio subsystem to force royalties from vendors like Centrance.

UAC2 hasn't changed in years, and it's plug and play on Mac and Linux without a driver, and updates don't break older UAC2 compliant devices.

Screw Thesycon.

@amira Depending on your level of tech wizardry, you will be able to fully test the M8v2 with ASIO support using the Thesycon demo driver: https://www.thesycon.de/eng/usb_audiodriver_select.php
They will ask you for USB descriptors - PM me and I'll send you a VID/PID that won't get you involved with any trouble between Centrance or Thesycon. Replace the VID/PID in the dump file as read from the m8v2 using the tool here: http://www.thesycon.de/tdd/tdd.exe

You'll have to modify the demo driver or spoof the VID/PID descriptors. If you just run the descriptor dump, I can get the demo driver and modify it for you if you prefer.

You shouldn't do this on your main measurement computer's primary windows installation for obvious reasons.

Alternatively, you can pass the device through macOS into APx running on Windows with VMware fusion.

You could also pass the audio via dante to a mac or linux machine that would act as a UAC2 host. This may not be a deterministic pipeline depending on your network card in your PC. I'm sure you know APx open loop measurements are possible, but it occurs to me that it might be locked behind a paywall since you didn't test the bluetooth input in this review.

If you really hate yourself, you can use gstreamer to make a deterministic pipeline using 802.1Q with a linux UAC2 host. Nobody will tell you how, but you could.

Screw Thesycon

------------------------- END RANT-----------------------------

A few questions about the M8 v2:
1. Is the clocking absolutely deterministic across the different headphone amp outputs?
2. What is the rated power and output limitation (current, voltage, or some combination?) of the "silky black no hiss IEM output"?
3. Are there any pictures floating around of the inside?
4. Do we have any measurements on Johnson noise on the different outputs as a function of runtime at max load or temperature?
5. Have the output sections been tested on a loudspeaker equivalent circuit to characterize the changes in linear response and SINAD as a function of synthetic QTS?

 

[Grotti]

Thank you very much for your answer. I have to admit that I understood only half of it (at best) but I got the idea .

 

[bit_collector]

Anything further from Mr. Goodman on this?

 

[ThesyconSucks]

No, no replies or DM's from anyone.

 

[newworld666]

I was one of those who didn't expect anything anymore from the M8V2, I was desperate to get it one day and the measurements here seemed to be far from my expectations/needs.

Then I finally got this item, a few weeks ago, and I tried it for what I intended to use it => with a HEDDphone of 42ohms and only 87db. Basically, I was almost sure to sell it on ebay within a month.
The time I was waiting for it (may 2020 till Jan 2021), I ordered, a supposed replacement for me, with a Astell & Kern Kann Alpha with 12V available on 4.4mm !!! Which basically should have done the job, as none of the daps on the market are available to deliver 12V.

After one month, I finally will keep the M8 V2 as I can't relate any of the measurements of Amir with what I can hear with the HEDDphone=> basically :
->Where are the XLR4 (hot side) at full power measurements ?
-> Where can I read the measurements for the instant pick voltage, which probably can explain why the low and ultra low frequencies are more impressive with the M8V2, with giving clear, fast deep kicks in the throat than I get with the Kann Alpha or my XDuoo XD05plus ? ...

So questions are :
-> Why the Kann Alpha has so much distortion compared to the M8V2 near max volume (between 135 to 150 on volume knob) While M8 v2 stays clear without noticeable distortion in the ears even at very high volume (too much for the ears) ?
-> Why the Monolith THX 887 gives still faster kicks in low and ultra low frequencies, but, I am surprised the M8V2 is the nearest feeling I could get, I would say it's near a direct connection between the DAP and an old Sony TAN-55ES of 2x100W and both not so far behind the THX887 + M500 ?

I am wondering, if some interesting measurements are not missing here !!
I really want to see what happens with THD near max voltage/power and see some figures related to instant kicks the HEDDphone can produce with the THX887 and the M8V2, and not with other of my amps.

It would be nice to see an iFI diablo being measured too, to see if more power in a portable amp can still help to deliver ultrafast impacts or the batteries will limit in any case this feature (it seems the impressive Cayin C9 is limited with demanding headphones like mine by HEDD or even with the HD800s) Some Cayin people explained me, batteries are the main factor to limit those kicks.

Anyway .. at the moment, I can't find any competitors on the market else than Ifi Diablo (without BT feature) of the M8V2.. So, after all, I will keep it and sell everything else (Kann Alpha, Xduoo XD05+).
I hope there will be soon or late some measurements of instant peak voltage or anything else which could explain why the M8V2 is far better than it is supposed to be here and why my HEDDphone sounds so good.

So I would say .. my HEDDphone and the M8V2 is on par with this combo (WM1A+direct to speakers output of the TAN-55ES), and far more portable !!!
It's not so far behind and when connected to SMSL M500+ Thx887 ... but there is still place for improvements for the M8 V2.

 

[PeteL]

I was one of those who didn't expect anything any more from the M8V2, I was desperate to get it one day and the measurements here seemed to be far from my expectations/needs.

Then I finally got this item, a few weeks ago, and I tried it for what I intended to use it => with a HEDDphone of 42ohms and only 87db. Basically, I was almost sure to sell it on ebay within a month.
The time I was waiting for it (may 2020 till Jan 2021), I ordered a supposed replacement for me with a Astell & Kern Kann Alpha with 12V available on 4.4mm !!! which shoulf=d have done the job.

View attachment 112434After one month, I finally will keep the M8 V2 as I can't relate any of the measurements of ammir with what I can hear with the HEDDphone..=> where are the XLR4 measurements ? Where can I get the instant pick voltage which probably can explain why the low and ultra low frequencies are far more impressive with the M8V2 giving clear, fast deep kicks in the throat than I get with the KannAlpha or my XDuoo XD05plus...
So questions are :
Why the Kann Alpha has so much distortion compared to the M8V2 near max volume (between 135 to 150 on volume knob) while M8 v2 stays clear without noticeable distortion in the ears ?
Why the Monolith THX 887 is still faster and clearer in low and ultra low frequencies, but the M8V2 is the nearest I could get, I would near a direct connection to an old Sony TAN-55ES of 2x100W and not far behind the THX887 ?

I am wondering, if some interesting measurements are not missing here !! I really wan't to see what happens near in THD at max voltage/power and see some figures related to instant kicks the HEDDphone can produce with the THX887 and the M8V2, and not with other of my amps..
It would be nice to see an iFI diablo being measured too, to see if more power in a portable amp can still help to deliver ultrafast impacts or batteries will limit in any case this feature (it seems the impressive Cayin C9 is limited with demanding headphones like mine by HEDD or even with the HD800s) Some Cayin people explained me, batteries are the main factor to limit those kicks.

Anyway .. at the moment, I can't find any competitors on the market else than Ifi Diablo (without BT feature) of the M8V2.. So, after all, I will keep it and sell everything else (Kann Alpha, Xduoo XD05+).
I hope there will be soon or late some measurements of instant peak voltage or anything else which could explain why the M8V2 is far better than it is supposed to be here and why my HEDDphone sounds so good.
View attachment 112435

From the Kann Alpha spec sheet, it says 12V (condition no load) When a manufacturer don’t want to specify the output power, they come up with a terminology like that, me I read into that: Not much current available....

 

[newworld666]

From the Kann Alpha spec sheet, it says 12V (condition no load) When a manufacturer don’t want to specify the output power, they come up with a terminology like that, me I read into that: Not much current available....

I know ... and my other items too Xduoo XD05+, Fiio M11, Hiby R6Pro and WM1A can't move often the HEDDphone properly. The M8V2 does at least the job, for the first time in one year I am free in my home to listen music where I want with an impressive sound that my IER-Z1R, Ultrasone Ed15 veritas and Sony Z7M2 can't produce !

I still enjoy reading audioscience review measurements, but these last months I noticed that some are missing to explain why some items can be much more impressive than those restricted measurements can explain.
I would think .. that the "in between measurements" are maybe not sufficient to explain everything.
As I can hear, and some Cayin People explained for the C9, batteries are probably a real limitation in instant power delivery and speed for amps.. and there is actually no way to improve it.

 

[Grotti]

Since I am actually not in the market for such a device, I shouldn't bother about it. And I should point out, that I haven't listened to it. And therefore I don't doubt, that it may subjectively sound great to others.

The point is, that it failed in some objective measurements, that Amir conducted. And since the manufacturer showed up a few months ago on ASR to defend its product (which is perfectly ok), there are only announcements of own measurements, delay (explained with the implementation of a new driver) and after all: silence.

Well, I suppose, the Christmas business is over now and sales are done.....

Since this is a science based site and the manufacturer has indicated, that his own measurements would show, that Amirs were faulty or at least would not draw the complete picture, I would appreciate ANY validation or proof.

And if not: another manufacturer removed from the list!

 

[newworld666]

I don't know .. about those measurements, actually I don't think there are wrong too. Amir did the job like he is doing seriously.

I just imagine those measurements are not accurate for what this item is supposed to be used for !!! As there is nothing in the measurements which could help me to understand why it's the only portable amp moving the HEDDphone in a proper way !!! No XLR4 measures between 1W and 1.4W or instant peak voltage on the hot side are missing, ..maybe ?

Anyway .. I will stop here arguing.. I just wanted to give some feedback as I didn't expect anything from this item, and I am surprised with what I can get with my HEDDphone, I would more think that the Kann Alpha is a garbage and the M8V2 worth to try for what it is also intended to be use for (XLR4 on the hot side).
That's it...

 

[Nango]

What is exactly the difference between V1 and V2 apart from the light show?

 

[elira]

I believe at the end CEntrance just acknowledged Amir's measurements were correct, that their measurements were measuring a different thing, that the bad measurements were the result of the volume control and that for a portable product it was good enough for them.

 

[radioman]

I believe at the end CEntrance just acknowledged Amir's measurements were correct, that their measurements were measuring a different thing, that the bad measurements were the result of the volume control and that for a portable product it was good enough for them.

Very concise, but not very accurate. Doesn't matter. Most importantly, Amir acknowledged he didn't understand what the product was for. Then he had driver issues and stopped his test.

We agree THD is not bad, but could be better. We also maintain there is more to the product than THD. But we also observed that's not the argument worth discussing in this thread. So we simply moved on. We respect every review site online and only have so much time on our hands.

In summary, we don't make a desktop amp. There are many great desktop amps with much better specs (power is questionable, but not THD). But when it comes to portable amps, HiFi-M8 is state of the art. Do not compare it with desktop amps. Do compare it with other portable amps, and move beyond the THD (If you can). Consider if the product does the job for the customer it was intended to do. Not all products are designed to do the same thing.

On a lighter note, and I know there are a lot of very serious people here, who spend their time seriously listening to serious music -- we cannot wait until ASR starts measuring guitar amps. That might singlehandedly cancel rock-and-roll!

In conclusion, we respect this community and its approach. It is not 100% aligned with our world view, but we are willing to listen and learn. We may pop in here every once in a while, but don't get upset if we prioritize our customers (sales are keeping us busy, despite what the tone of this thread might suggest). Peace, Love and Understanding to all! Above all, stay healthy and positive. The world needs that now, more than ever!

 

[radioman]

What is exactly the difference between V1 and V2 apart from the light show?

More Power, less THD, lower noise. Smaller case, more outputs, BT, USB-C jacks. Just an upgrade to overall technology with more modern components. In 7 years, many things have improved in electronics and battery technology, and we have updated the product accordingly.