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Carver Crimson 275 Review (Tube Amp)

Rate this amplifier

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 379 95.0%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 5 1.3%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 6 1.5%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 9 2.3%

  • Total voters
    399

restorer-john

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So clearly it is not part of the design but rather, whatever wire is available at the moment.

Yep, whatever they had floating around. Nicely covered with a disclaimer like this:

"Under our policy of continuous product improvement,
these specifications may change at any time. You
should therefore check with your Dealer to ensure
this booklet/specifications correctly
describes the product currently available." (Fisher & Paykel)
 
OP
amirm

amirm

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"Under our policy of continuous product improvement,
these specifications may change at any time. You
should therefore check with your Dealer to ensure
this booklet/specifications correctly
describes the product currently available." (Fisher & Paykel)
Fisher & Paykel had the worst reliability track record of any appliance company when I looked at their products for our kitchen remodel. No wonder given that statement!
 

Blumlein 88

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Fisher & Paykel had the worst reliability track record of any appliance company when I looked at their products for our kitchen remodel. No wonder given that statement!
They also make medical equipment.
 

restorer-john

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Fisher & Paykel had the worst reliability track record of any appliance company when I looked at their products for our kitchen remodel. No wonder given that statement!

Don't get me started on F&P. You seriously dodged a bullet by not buying that brand. Fridges, cooktops or washers. Oh, and dish-drawer dishwashers- don't even think about it, not even once. To give you an idea, they use PC grade fans for the air-drying function!

Once a month, I had to do an Amir and extract the water (with a wet and dry shop-vac) from each dish drawer, clean the filter that blocked up, suck out whatever was clogging the tiny pump and reset the unit. I knew the diagnostic functions off by heart I'd run them so many times. Finally one drawer caught fire on the control board and I bypassed the optical drawer close switches (as they failed too) to keep us going until I bought a real dishwasher.

I dragged the thing out on the back deck, stripped out a few components, heaved it off the deck, 25ft down onto our gravel driveway and dragged it to the waste skip at the dump, where I hurled the pieces in. It was a cathartic experience.

All I kept were the solid brushed metal handles. They were the best made piece of the whole product.

f&p handle (1).jpeg


f&p handle (2).jpeg


AU$1800 down the drain- well actually not much went down the drain, we had to rinse everything first as it was so bad at washing. Our new machine can clean a whole meal off a plate- even baked lasagne dishes.
 
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DanielT

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Don't get me started on F&P. You seriously dodged a bullet by not buying that brand. Fridges, cooktops or washers. Oh, and dish-drawer dishwashers- don't even think about it, not even once. To give you an idea, they use PC grade fans for the air-drying function!

Once a month, I had to do an Amir and extract the water (with a wet and dry shop-vac) from each dish drawer, clean the filter that blocked up, suck out whatever was clogging the tiny pump and reset the unit. I knew the diagnostic functions off by heart I'd run them so many times. Finally one drawer caught fire on the control board and I bypassed the optical drawer close switches (as they failed too) to keep us going until I bought a real dishwasher.

I dragged the thing out on the back deck, stripped out a few components, heaved it off the deck, 25ft down onto our gravel driveway and dragged it to the waste skip at the dump, where I hurled the pieces in. It was a cathartic experience.

All I kept were the solid brushed metal handles. They were the best made piece of the whole product.

View attachment 179622

View attachment 179623

AU$1800 down the drain- well actually not much went down the drain, we had to rinse everything first as it was so bad at washing. Our new machine can clean a whole meal off a plate- even baked lasagne dishes.
In the same way that Amir's tests can be seen as consumer information, this applies to many other gadgets. Or everything else actually. In addition, it is really good that practical experiences of different products are shared with others.So thanks for the information restorer- john.:)

 

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caught gesture

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I think that if Frank Malitz says it, then it must be a lie. Like I said... Bob gives him a product that does exactly what he claims it does, then Frank cheapens the crap out of it and we get the garbage found here. I bet if Bob knew what was done to the 275, he would blow a gasket. That is not a pretty sight.
Isn’t this indicative of so many brands built on a reputation garnered when they were a smaller outfit. Someone buys their name (and reputation) and then proceeds to cut as many corners as possible in the manufacturing process to maximise profit. They also normally increase the marketing budget.
 

uwotm8

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That fuse blowing experience is just epic. Even horrific distortion dance party (>tube amp >3rd harmonic:facepalm:) just can't compete with such a feature.
 

solderdude

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Even horrific distortion dance party (>tube amp >3rd harmonic:facepalm:) just can't compete with such a feature.

The higher odd harmonics is because it is a balanced tube amplifier. The higher 2nd harmonics of the tube is turned into 3rd harmonics (2nd harm. is asymmetrical, 3 harm is symmetrical) so can be expected.

That fuse blowing experience is just epic.

I guess the fuse blowing won't happen when playing music but agreed... the fuse rating is a bit 'tight'
 

Vovgan

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Oh. This is the type of representation you want to provide for this brand? Listen: poor measurements are one thing. Don't add to it by showing the people behind it may be just as bad. Be professional. Do your part best and don't add insult to injury here. I swear some people in the industry need take a PR class just to know how to conduct themselves in public....
Chief please do not admonish manufacturers to avoid drama. We like to see agonies and acrimony and self embarrassments unfolding in public in real time. Don’t forget your own title here. There’s little fun in just numbers.
 

AudioSceptic

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Some loudspeakers were designed to be driven by an output impedance higher than is normal for today's amps. As a specific example, the Quad Electrostatic user manual advises the amp should have an output impedance of 1-2 ohms, in series with 30-40uH, which happens to be the output impedance of a Quad II amplifier, around which the ESL was designed.

There is some anecdotal evidence that Tannoy 12" & 15" dual-concentrics like to be driven from a 1-2 ohm output impedance, but I've never seen anything properly documented, so it may just be internet talk, but again they were designed at a time when amplifiers had that sort of output impedance.

S.
Isn't that simply because (almost) all valve amps need output transformers and high impedance is then unavoidable? I'm no amp designer so please correct me if that's nonsense.
 

SIY

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Isn't that simply because (almost) all valve amps need output transformers and high impedance is then unavoidable? I'm no amp designer so please correct me if that's nonsense.
With sufficient voltage feedback, the source impedance can be made low, transformers or no. Most OTLs (all that I have ever seen) have higher source impedance than conventional engineered transformer-coupled amps. The kicker is that transformers can make putting in high levels of negative feedback a real challenge for stability.
 

Vict0r

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Those internals look cheap. The measurements are bad. The product is potentially unsafe. When the only nice thing you have to say about a $3000 tube amp is that it has a nice paint finish, you know we're looking at a product that has no reason to exist.
 

Koeitje

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Amir should have listened to it.
That's actually a risky business though, because you have to touch the device and its not properly grounded. Considering the rest of the build quality I would avoid using this piece of electronics, regardless of how it sounds or measure just on the basis that is dangerous.
 

AudioSceptic

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To what purpose and under what conditions and with what speakers? How would this be relevant to the rest of us and our varying setups?

Being the owner of a 7-8 watt SET 300B amp that I quite enjoy on 91dB @ 2.83v @ 1 meter speakers at the reasonable levels I prefer, I can certainly see how owners can enjoy and even love these amps!

If they sound good to you and you get your value out of them, these measurements and any listening impressions from Amir are IRRELEVANT.

Added: I have every permutation of amp type and operating class, from Class A BJT, Pentode, Class A PP triode, etc. to AHB2s and purifi-based Class D - all over the board.
Even if the poor measured performance might be irrelevant when it comes to "sound quality", how do you justify the high price when such performance can be achieved for a few 10s of $?
 

AudioSceptic

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Listen to it? Why do that? Audio Science Review is about sine waves and powering resistors, not music powering loudspeakers.
If its cheap and built to test good, its golden, no need to be musical. Audio reviews without listening. If you don't actually listen to an audio product in a review, your name might be more accurately called Resistor Science Review. Never had a 275 returned for lack of power making music. People that use it with music, powering speakers love them.
Assuming for now that it sounds OK-to-good, how do you justify the poor build quality and safety aspects for such an expensive product?
 

Bernd

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Tnx for this review! I am not an electrician, not into DIY electronics, and I cannot make sense of an electronics diagram or layout. But I was shocked to see the internals of this 'high-end' device - it looks sooooo 'shoddy' that I would have felt 'ripped off' had I bought it.

Here is a picture of the internals of a Chi-Fi product (BoyuuRange A50 MKIII 300B): I have no idea how this thing sounds but just by looking at it, I .......hm...... let us say, 'tend to have seriously more confidence!

boyuu.jpg


Well, you tell me. Price 850$ on Amazon.
 

SaltyCDogg

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That's actually a risky business though, because you have to touch the device and its not properly grounded. Considering the rest of the build quality I would avoid using this piece of electronics, regardless of how it sounds or measure just on the basis that is dangerous.
Conceptually dangerous. But less dangerous than going back down into his basement I expect. Or carrying one of the big Genelecs up a flight of stairs.

He's already opened it up, poked around inside and hooked it up to his very expensive analyser.

I think the bigger question is what can be gained by listening to it. It's one of the worst measuring amps he's ever tested and very lower powered. If he says it sounds anything other than bad then where do we go from there?
 

sergeauckland

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Isn't that simply because (almost) all valve amps need output transformers and high impedance is then unavoidable? I'm no amp designer so please correct me if that's n onsense.
Yes, it's a bit 'chicken and egg'. Amplifiers of that era were all valved, and consequently had output impedances of around the 1-2 ohms level. Some went lower, but as SIY mentioned, the output transformer was a real limitation to the amount of feedback that could be applied, and therefore how low the output impedance could go. A very few amplifiers, notably Radford, had superb output transformers, and could apply a lot more feedback than the norm, but most couldn't. OTL amplifiers didn't have the transformer problem, but had the inherent output impedance of the valves themselves to contend with. It was possible to reduce the output impedance by lot of valves in parallel, but that very quickly became impractical due to power consumption, heat and not least, cost.

Consequently, loudspeaker manufacturers had to contend with amplifiers with such an output impedance, and where there were design choices to be made, such as with the Quad ESL, they were designed for the amplifiers of the time.

Even once Solid State amplifiers became available, although output impedances dropped considerably at mid-frequencies, the necessity for an series output capacitor still gave a quite high output impedance at low frequencies, somewhat mitigated if the output capacitor was in the feedback loop, but that gave issues with LF distortion. It wasn't until decent silicon PNP/NPN pairs came available that complementary-symmetry output stages became possible and very low output impedances right across the audio band became standard.

S.
 

Aperiodic

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This is what the product page says about that. If it's true that the amplifier modifies the output based on the speaker kickback, I wonder how does the dummy load affect the system? Would be nice to see if Amir could test with a real speaker if that feature actually does something.
It doesn't.

Carver's analysis would seem a lot more valid if the back EMF wasn't modified by the distortions inherent in the loudspeaker, which have a tenous relationship with the input signal. Resonances, phase anomalies, THD, IMD- you name it, it's there. For anybody buying into this BS, I would ask: What magical intelligence does this amp have that separates out the loudspeaker nonlinearities from the effects of the room it's supposedly 'listening' to?
 
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