Matching ultra high-end speakers with a (good) cheap amp?

[Chrispy]

Something I posted in another thread. Wilson did something like this in a public demo at the CES in 2004.

Anyone remember the Wilson audio demo at the CES show in 2004. The demo had a Wilson Sophia system and a B&W 800 Nautilus system. The other system had a Nagra PLL preamp, Krell CD player and Krell amps. The Wilson had the same preamp, amp and CD player. Speakers were level matched and people were allowed to hear both and vote. The Wilson got more votes.

Afterwards it was shown that the Wilson system was something of a fake. A hidden 16 bit iPod was the music source, the Nagra was used, but it was feeding a hidden Parasound $1000 amplifier. Obviously Wilson had a vested interest in showing speakers are the overwhelming component of importance. They couldn't force people to hear it that way of course.

Speakers and the room are where it counts. Everything else is a solved problem.

Here is a quote from Mr. Wilson about that demo:

The demonstration was meant to explore
some prejudices in the way people look at system hierarchy.
to me, that means determining which element of the system is the
most critical in determining the quality and the character of the
sound the listener will experience.

And in thinking about that, I came down to the three most
important factors. First is the microphone used in the recordings.
Another is room acoustics, and then the third is loudspeakers. . . .
The loudspeaker is, to me, the most critical element in the
playback chain. The purpose of that experiment was to show that
the quality of the loudspeaker overrules the quality of the amplifier,
the quality of the cables, and even the quality of the signal source.


Loudspeakers are the least perfect devices in the system and
yet they have the hardest job. . . .

Because there is such a range between the poorest to the best
loudspeaker, it behooves the customer to anchor the system with
the best loudspeakers that he can, and then to build the rest of the
system around that.

That's one of the better things I've read about Wilson.

 

[Karmacoma]

I might get an Audiophonics or Apollon just for a bit more power and aesthetics. If I spent a quarter million on speakers, I'd probably do that though I can be pretty hair shirted about such choices.

Indeed, that's a false dilemma sophism. This will just never happen.

 

[Waxx]

First, I would never give 250K for a hifi speaker, not even if i was Elon Musk level rich. I'm quiet sure they can't outclass the top level speakers of brands like JBL, Genelec or Neumann, that cost a fraction of that.

But I would use the best amp i can find for that if i was that rich and had expensive speakers, and then you're probally looking at Purifi or Hypex NCore-X type of amps. Those are better than all very expensive amps i saw measured on objective specs.

If you want a bit design and integration and so, you can look at NAD, but the same audio performance can be had cheaper with some buildes mentioned above. It depends on what you find important. I would probally let someone make custom designs in the styling i want if I was that rich. It would still cost a lot more then needed for sound, but i t would be what i want, and surely not that expensive as audiophile high end amps cost today with worse performance and looks.

 

[JustAnAudioLover]

First, I would never give 250K for a hifi speaker, not even if i was Elon Musk level rich. I'm quiet sure they can't outclass the top level speakers of brands like JBL, Genelec or Neumann, that cost a fraction of that.

But I would use the best amp i can find for that if i was that rich and had expensive speakers, and then you're probally looking at Purifi or Hypex NCore-X type of amps. Those are better than all very expensive amps i saw measured on objective specs.

If you want a bit design and integration and so, you can look at NAD, but the same audio performance can be had cheaper with some buildes mentioned above. It depends on what you find important. I would probally let someone make custom designs in the styling i want if I was that rich. It would still cost a lot more then needed for sound, but i t would be what i want, and surely not that expensive as audiophile high end amps cost today with worse performance and looks.

The question is: if well-designed amps are acoustically transparent, what audible difference would there be between Topping's ~$170 amp and a Purifi or Hypex NCore-X amp? Apart from not being as limited in volume obviously.

 

[Blumlein 88]

The question is: if well-designed amps are acoustically transparent, what audible difference would there be between Topping's ~$170 amp and a Purifi or Hypex NCore-X amp? Apart from not being as limited in volume obviously.

By definition as you stated it nothing.

 

[JustAnAudioLover]

By definition as you stated it nothing.

Yeah the way I put it was pretty rhetorical, I just was just wondering if basic amps are indeed acoustically transparent.
To which most people in this thread seem to answer yes.

 

[GXAlan]

The question is: if well-designed amps are acoustically transparent, what audible difference would there be between Topping's ~$170 amp and a Purifi or Hypex NCore-X amp? Apart from not being as limited in volume obviously.

Very little audible difference within the volume envelope provided that the cheap amp handles the load. At lower output, current is also low.

But, the rationale for spending a lot more than the Topping is speaker protection. Airplanes crash, often human error. Home audio is not built to aviation levels of safety and while human error is not as big of an issue, components from all manufacturers can fail. The question is if they fail gracefully?

If you look at the HypeX NC500OEM and SMPS400, there is a lot of protection circuitry built-in, which is what you’d get with an enthusiast level amp.

However, Marantz in their PM-10, uses all of the HypeX protection circuitry and THEN they add even more speaker protection monitors. This costs more but is well worth the peace of mind when pairing it with expensive speakers.

One could argue that extra speaker protection is like paying 2x to go from 120 dB SINAD to 121 dB SINAD and the extra protection is only for bragging rights and excessive/unnecessary engineering but

You will actually see in Japan that the PR events for Denon will pair their AVRs or integrated amps with big B&W 802 series speakers.

 

[DanielT]

The question is: if well-designed amps are acoustically transparent, what audible difference would there be between Topping's ~$170 amp and a Purifi or Hypex NCore-X amp? Apart from not being as limited in volume obviously.

Let's say that the Focal Grande Utopia really had 94 dB sensitivity and provided that they were amp load friendly (which they are not) then an old Rotel RA 930AX (assuming fully functional according to spec etc of course) with 30 watts could have powered up those speakers with ease.
With those conditions no audible difference between such an RA-930AX and any expensive amp. Between RA-930AX and a very low powered poorly constructed tube amp? Then you might hear a difference but none between an RA-930AX and a good, really good SOTA amp.
That is as long as you don't want to try to push the pedal to the metal with an RA-930AX and those speakers but the combo with 94 dB sensitivity and 30 watts will get you really high in SPL.
Note that I am not 100% sure of my assumption, but it is very likely so (until you know how an RA-930AX performs in a bench test, you really don't know).
(extremely dynamic music and really high SPL with 94 dB sensitivity speakers and 30 amp watts, maybe a challenge)

https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/rotel/ra-930ax.shtml

By the way. Let's say speakers with 85 dB sensitivity , then the corresponding amp (94 dB-30 watts) is then 240 watts to be able to match them.

With that said. If you have the money to buy a pair of Focal Grande Utopia, I agree with Waxx on this:

But I would use the best amp i can find for that if i was that rich and had expensive speakers, and then you're probally looking at Purifi or Hypex NCore-X type of amps. Those are better than all very expensive amps i saw measured on objective specs.

If you want a bit design and integration and so, you can look at NAD, but the same audio performance can be had cheaper with some buildes mentioned above. It depends on what you find important. I would probally let someone make custom designs in the styling i want if I was that rich. It would still cost a lot more then needed for sound, but i t would be what i want, and surely not that expensive as audiophile high end amps cost today with worse performance and looks.

 

[Waxx]

The question is: if well-designed amps are acoustically transparent, what audible difference would there be between Topping's ~$170 amp and a Purifi or Hypex NCore-X amp? Apart from not being as limited in volume obviously.

Not necesairly audible, but NCore or Purifi based amps are way more reliable than Topping from what i see. Topping does not have a good track record on that. That is for me a big issue. And it's also not that topping amps are necesairly cheaper or have better support.

 

[JustAnAudioLover]

Well if I had the money to buy the Focal Grande Utopia I wouldn't actually buy these ; I would buy something like the Focal Sopra n°2 which make a lot more sense at this price point, or $10k~20k SOTA speakers from any other good brand, really. And spend a few thousand on good-looking, powerful amplifiers to ensure the speakers won't ever be limited in terms of power output. And probably some good-looking $1~2k DAC as well even though it's perfectly useless in terms of sound, but that budget would get me a nice hefty well-designed box.
But that's not going to happen anytime soon, or ever.

So to sum up, from what I understand, buying a more expensive amplifier can be worth it for:

* Better electrical protection (so as to not fry the amp in case of short-circuiting)
* More output power
* (for some amps) lower impedance output for the speakers that require it
* Better build quality

Am I missing anything?

 

[DanielT]

Well if I had the money to buy the Focal Grande Utopia I wouldn't actually buy these ; I would buy something like the Focal Sopra n°2 which make a lot more sense at this price point, or $10k~20k SOTA speakers from any other good brand, really. And spend a few thousand on good-looking, powerful amplifiers to ensure the speakers won't ever be limited in terms of power output. And probably some good-looking $1~2k DAC as well even though it's perfectly useless in terms of sound, but that budget would get me a nice hefty well-designed box.
But that's not going to happen anytime soon, or ever.

So to sum up, from what I understand, buying a more expensive amplifier can be worth it for:

* Better electrical protection (so as to not fry the amp in case of short-circuiting)
* More output power
* (for some amps) lower impedance output for the speakers that require it
* Better build quality

Am I missing anything?

You forgot the VU meter.

A bit of a joke though looks should not be ignored. At least I have it in the back of my mind even if it is not the most decisive criterion.

Starting point for me is a transparent amp. Criteria: Power, functions and decent or ok SINAD (so the amplifier is transparent), and that it is load independent (pancake flat FR a requirement). All those aspects or criteria must be met.
In addition: Looks, warranty, build quality and reliability.

How high SINAD? There are quite a few threads about it on ASR if you are interested.

How much power? So it is enough that the amp is not driven into clipping. Check out this thread on that topic:

Crown amplifier power calculator question

https://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/tools/calculators#amp_power_required The calculator gives the required amplifier power in watts, but how does this relate to amplifier power ratings? As I understand it the Required Amplifier Power figure should be used to find an amplifier with that amount of...

audiosciencereview.com

By the way, when does distortion become audible? You can test it here. It gives a little hint, when that's the case for you:

 

[DanielT]

So to sum up, from what I understand, buying a more expensive amplifier can be worth it for:

* Better electrical protection (so as to not fry the amp in case of short-circuiting)
* More output power
* (for some amps) lower impedance output for the speakers that require it
* Better build quality

Am I missing anything?

Correlation between price and power? To a certain level it may be so.......or not. Look how many damn expensive low powered tube amps there are on the HiFi market.

 

[Cbdb2]

I would certainly opt for something of absolute reliability

Does that exsist?

 

[Mikig]

if it were only for a visual aspect, all my life a fireball of the usual "noble" suspects. My preference would go for ML, Krell, maybe Accuphase or Burmester and why not even a YBA 1 ....
but we are talking about visual and emotional combination ....

in reality, today with an honest figure you can take home truly performing amplifications that can make everything sound, but above all well. The measured performances indicate that they have all the credentials ..... I forgot, from a few bills of 100 dollars and up ....

 

[PHD]

Not exactly cheap but not expensive either given it's an integrated amp with a descent DAC and HT bypass, etc specs Rotel Michi X5 will make those Focals sing.

I sure hope you are well. Just letting you know that you are missed in the Neuron thread...

 

[Digital_Thor]

I actively participated in a test, where we hooked up both a Behringer EP4000, a Groundsound HPA2K and Dan D'Agostino mono blocks to a set of Magico Q7.

The Behringer was maybe a tiny little bit worse in the top.... but we are splitting hairs here. And maybe the Dan D'Agostino was a tad more refined. The Groundsound in between.

But I think the biggest gain, was still adding subwoofers and EQ, to tame the room and its inherent acoustic problems

Almost every time I do these test'. I almost always find the biggest gain with more powerful amplifiers, also typically with a bigger output voltage swing - meaning - that an amplifier can be heavy and be big, but still lack the actual output voltage and stability of the output circuit. The Behringer and Groundsound both go to around +/-120V at the output, and the Groundsound also has a triple output stage, making it quite immune to difficult loads, which has also been tested on a set of B&W 800 series - the one with double 10" woofers - where the previous Lyngdorf and Marantz mono blocks, couldn't hold its grip on the woofers. The HPA2K tightened up those 10" woofers like in a steel grip, and it all went from a "wholly boom", to a much tighter "smack". In most cased I blame badly designed or complicated passive filters - which could be the reason why modern active loudspeakers can get away with way smaller and cheap chip-amps - and still sound great, loud and clean.

 

[boxerfan88]

Many people say here that well-designed amps are acoustically indistinguishable, so does that mean it would actually make sense to pair 250 000 € speakers with a 170 € amp, which is more than 1000x less expensive ?

(Note that obviously if you have the money to purchase 250 000 € speakers, that means money is not an object in the first place, and you can absolutely treat yourself to some great 2x 1000 W top-of-the-line amplifiers, I'm just curious whether the Topping - or any other - would be as good as long as you don't exceed the amplifier's maximum output power)

Thanks in advance for your answers

If the speaker impedance is benign, me thinks the Topping B200 would pair well with the 250k speaker.

But then if I had spent big bucks on a pair of Magico speakers, might as well pair it with an Accuphase or Luxman or McIntosh . Bling must go with more bling

 

[Frank Dernie]

if you use it wisely you can get 2x efficiency increase regarding consumption

Rubbish.
The fuel consumption is much worse (about double) because the calorific value is low.
It can produce more power, because it contains some oxygen, and run cooler but the consumption is dire.
I was amazed by the size of pump and hoses necessary on alcohol fuelled racing cars.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Ironically it is sometimes the biggest, most expensive speakers which are the most efficient and some have a benign impedance too so are less amplifier sensitive than a small 2-way would be.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

For these speakers, an amplifier with high current capabilities is preferred to handle the 2-ohm dip in the bass from 40-60 Hz. While there isn't a phase measurement in the Stereophile data, we can reasonably assume it isn't zero, meaning you'll need an amplifier that is immune to EMF, such as well-regarded Class D modules from Hypex and Purifi. Alternatively, if opting for a Class A/B amplifier, choose one with high current capabilities that can handle 2-ohm loads, ideally going below that.

This rules out Topping, as suggested elsewhere.

Additionally, it's clear that the amplifier should have a frequency response that remains unaffected by load, given the sharp impedance peak in the sensitive area of 2-5 kHz.

An assessment of power requirements cannot be made without details on listening distance, typical listening volume, the genres of music played, and whether any room correction or EQ will be applied.