Matching ultra high-end speakers with a (good) cheap amp?

[ZolaIII]

Rubbish.
The fuel consumption is much worse (about double) because the calorific value is low.
It can produce more power, because it contains some oxygen, and run cooler but the consumption is dire.
I was amazed by the size of pump and hoses necessary on alcohol fuelled racing cars.

When I whose kid one of the hobbies whose building model gliders and rockets. There it was about simplicity and efficiency especial regarding wight. Two stroke single cilindar cuple mm bore motors and alcohol/oil mixture whose a main fule. Whosent in racing or monster trucks tho drove one of the most high pressure pump/head gasoline car motor there ever whose. Golf 2 GT KJ tronic (20+ year's ago and it whose my first car). Mechanics run away from it but I never had any problems with it, and it whose fun to drive.

 

[Frank Dernie]

For these speakers, an amplifier with high current capabilities is preferred to handle the 2-ohm dip in the bass from 40-60 Hz. While there isn't a phase measurement in the Stereophile data, we can reasonably assume it isn't zero, meaning you'll need an amplifier that is immune to EMF, such as well-regarded Class D modules from Hypex and Purifi. Alternatively, if opting for a Class A/B amplifier, choose one with high current capabilities that can handle 2-ohm loads, ideally going below that.

This rules out Topping, as suggested elsewhere.

Additionally, it's clear that the amplifier should have a frequency response that remains unaffected by load, given the sharp impedance peak in the sensitive area of 2-5 kHz.

An assessment of power requirements cannot be made without details on listening distance, typical listening volume, the genres of music played, and whether any room correction or EQ will be applied.

View attachment 438120

Yes true in principle but with a 94dB sensitivity neither power nor current are likely to be limits for domestic listening in reality.
Unlike with a 82dB sensitivity 2-way...

 

[Frank Dernie]

When I whose kid one of the hobbies whose building model gliders and rockets. There it was about simplicity and efficiency especial regarding wight. Two stroke single cilindar cuple mm bore motors and alcohol/oil mixture whose a main fule. Whosent in racing or monster trucks tho drove one of the most high pressure pump/head gasoline car motor there ever whose. Golf 2 GT KJ tronic (20+ year's ago and it whose my first car). Mechanics run away from it but I never had any problems with it, and it whose fun to drive.

Simple and light is good and alcohol is a very easy to use fuel because it runs cool and easily produces power without high technology, but good efficiency, no chance!

 

[Old_School_Brad]

Yes true in principle but with a 94dB sensitivity neither power nor current are likely to be limits for domestic listening in reality.
Unlike with a 82dB sensitivity 2-way...

It's impossible to determine without the missing details. But..

I'll assume these 175 cm, 210 kg speakers are not typically used in small rooms, and that the owner may also prefer listening at higher volumes occasionally.
As a result, they would likely need around 200 W of high-current power for transients at a 4-meter distance, with an average of 85 dB and 20 dB of headroom. This is based on a sensitivity of 94 dB, which is probably on the higher end. For reference, Stereophile lists the sensitivity as 92 dB.

 

[thewas]

When I whose kid one of the hobbies whose building model gliders and rockets. There it was about simplicity and efficiency especial regarding wight. Two stroke single cilindar cuple mm bore motors and alcohol/oil mixture whose a main fule.

Those small model engines use actually nitromethane mixed with methanol and of course some oil for lubrication being 2 stroke without an oil reservoir and make more than 500 hp per litre engine displacement.

Nitro engine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ZolaIII]

Simple and light is good and alcohol is a very easy to use fuel because it runs cool and easily produces power without high technology, but good efficiency, no chance!

It's more about engineering really. Mentioned high pressure pump and K head valves very more efficient than turbine and with similar effect (higher compression and more strength still linear without turbo hole). I know how much it can suck when you switch it to smaller gear with pedal to the metal (you could literally hear pump suckling the fule) but average consumption whose actually fine. Later they combined it into one called it Bosch pump but for diesel engines. Last petrol car with such system whose UW Passat/Santana B2 RS and you won't find higher pressure system or pump on commercial petrol car. We used alcohol in flying combustion motor models and it gave higher range than same with gasoline and it whose competitive space (so did everyone) and I don't think that changed even today. Anyway that's my experience.

 

[Frank Dernie]

It's more about engineering really. Mentioned high pressure pump and K head valves very more efficient than turbine and with similar effect (higher compression and more strength still linear without turbo hole). I know how much it can suck when you switch it to smaller gear with pedal to the metal (you could literally hear pump suckling the fule) but average consumption whose actually fine. Later they combined it into one called it Bosh pump but for diesel engines. Last petrol car with such system whose UW Passat/Santana B2 RS and you won't find higher pressure system or pump on commercial petrol car. We used alcohol in flying combustion motor models and it gave higher range than same with gasoline and it whose competitive space (so did everyone) and I don't think that changed even today. Anyway that's my experience.

My only experience of alcohol in road cars is rental cars in Brazil when over for the Grand Prix, difficult to start and very high fuel consumption (about double that of petrol as one would expect from the engineering data).
Most experience has been in racing where the fuel consumption means lots of pit stops but allows pretty immense power and reliability from fairly crude engines.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

If the speaker impedance is benign, me thinks the Topping B200 would pair well with the 250k speaker.

But then if I had spent big bucks on a pair of Magico speakers, might as well pair it with an Accuphase or Luxman or McIntosh . Bling must go with more bling

Oh, like this?

Spoiler: Tightwad System

 

[DanielT]

If the speaker impedance is benign, me thinks the Topping B200 would pair well with the 250k speaker.

But then if I had spent big bucks on a pair of Magico speakers, might as well pair it with an Accuphase or Luxman or McIntosh . Bling must go with more bling

Topping B200 monoblock so two are needed then, total price around US $1200. Then you say bling. Luxman or McIntosh in all their glory but they can be really expensive. I would actually rather considered this one I saw sold for $750 a few days ago, an Onkyo M-508. From what I can see, a pretty attractive price for such an Onkyo.

According to the seller in very good condition. Okay around thirty-five years so servicing it with possible replacement of some capacitors plus other things that may be needed and the sensible thing to do. Such a piece of candy should be taken care of.

I don't know how it measures. I'm guessing completely ok or more than ok regarding measurements. I think it has enough power for most speakers, 200 watt at 8 Ohm, 315 at 4 Ohm.
(I took it as an example, I'm happy with my amps so someone else can buy that Onkyo)

Specifications:


Edit:
Then the usual disclaimer for buyers of vintage. You boxerfan88 know it, I'm sure, so more directed to others who read this thread. If you can't service the amplifier yourself and hand it over to a professional repairman who charges by the hour, it can be expensive, really expensive.

 

[Jakeh]

Given these informations, would a cheap but well-designed amplifier like Topping's PA5 (2x 100W, verified on ASR) sound as good to the human ear as any $100 000 ultra high-end amp (if you listen at a very moderate volume)?

No.

 

[Audionaut]

No.

The Question is: Why not?

 

[ferrellms]

Hi there!

I have a question of which I asked a variation recently, but I want to ensure I understand things correctly.

Let's say you are rich and get a pair of Focal's Grande Utopia speakers. These are 250 000 € a pair. Six-figure speakers.

They have a sensitivity of 94 dB and are rated for amplifiers ranging from 50 to 1500 W. Their nominal impedance is 8 ohms.

Given these informations, would a cheap but well-designed amplifier like Topping's PA5 (2x 100W, verified on ASR) sound as good to the human ear as any $100 000 ultra high-end amp (if you listen at a very moderate volume)?

Many people say here that well-designed amps are acoustically indistinguishable, so does that mean it would actually make sense to pair 250 000 € speakers with a 170 € amp, which is more than 1000x less expensive ?

(Note that obviously if you have the money to purchase 250 000 € speakers, that means money is not an object in the first place, and you can absolutely treat yourself to some great 2x 1000 W top-of-the-line amplifiers, I'm just curious whether the Topping - or any other - would be as good as long as you don't exceed the amplifier's maximum output power)

Thanks in advance for your answers

It would in all likelihood sound identical. Don't worry about making sense with high end audio - wealthy ignoramuses buy this stuff!

 

[mhardy6647]

This thread reminds me of... Randy.

plus silky smooth tone controls!
whoo-whee!

 

[scruffy1]

yeah, i wanted a kenwood in the late 70's, but then the salesman seduced me with a luxman L2... and it was wonderful

 

[Overseas]

For HIFI sake, I pray that OP , besides the final choice (2X Ahb as monoblocks please) would also buy a few cheap well rated amps and organise some proper blind tests. At this budget, throwing a few more bucks will be easy. Maybe some audio guy will come to the place for 1 day honorary and conduct the test.

 

[gfinlays]

Wait a minute. Are Focal Grande Utopia the same speakers as the Focal Grande Utopia EM Evo? If so, TS you absolutely need to take this into account when choosing an amplifier for them:

Focal's 8ohm nominal figure doesn't sit well with its claimed 3ohm minimum, and we measured a low of 1.9ohm. LF phase angles are quite well controlled but, with the low modulus, drops the EPDR to a minimum of 1.1ohm at 187Hz, with further dips to 1.2ohm at 130Hz and 1.4ohm at 88Hz – so the latest Utopia presents an extremely challenging load.

Plus, given their FR, if that measurement in the same test was correct, I would have spent money EQing them.
View attachment 436143

Focal Grande Utopia EM Evo loudspeaker Lab Report

Focal claims 94dB sensitivity for the Utopia EM Evo which would make it one of the highest-sensitivity direct radiating loudspeakers we have measured. But our pink noise figure of exactly 91dB is well short of that. This was obtained by measuring at 2m distance (not our usual 1m), the cabinet...

www.hifinews.com

Eesh, that FR curve is shocking! The crossover design/driver choice leaves a lot to be desired.....

 

[Gary_G]

If money is no object I would pair those speakers with Parasound JC1+ mono blocks for the winters and Benchmark AHB2 for summers.

 

[Flaesh]

DCX464 by itself is approx ten times more expensive than Fosi V3 stereo, to which it is connected. This is mine. For example.
And how much should a horn\WG cost if the compression driver costs, for example, 100 or 500?)..

 

[PierreV]

I tested both my Giya G3 and Focal Scala Utopias (not grande utopia ) on underpowered/cheap amps ranging from 2x6 to 2x60W. The 6 watts was some 99EUR crap with an unpronounçable name, the 60W was a 30 or so yo integrated Yamahas. I think I also used my old NAD

In my mid-sized room (around 60sqm), the G3 worked really well with everything at low volume and with the Yamaha up to a decent level. The Focal not so much, they _subjectively_ sounded "sluggish". I took some measurements with REW and a UMIK (don't have them anymore, that was 7/8 years ago or so) and had differences in low frequencies. I remember checking impedance/phase curves and deducing from those (with my limited skill set, I could be wrong) that the Focals were a more difficult load.

In daily usage, I have been driving the Focals with NC400 Hypex kits and have been totally satisfied. I consistently failed blind tests comparing Giya G3 + Linn amplifiers and Utopias + NC400 when they were setup in the same room.

I am perfectly happy with boths systems when running them with 90+ % of the cost going into the speakers (including cheap DAC/streamers such as Khadas, Fosi, Cambridge Audio... ). The G3s are currently on a full Linn stack that I happened to own and that has a ton of inputs I find useful but in terms of SQ, no difference that I could hear or measure with cheap stuff.

And, for most of my listening, I feel I could certainly go along with decent studio monitors and their subs. It is just that I can't stand their looks.

 

[DSJR]

Back to the OP and another take on 'ultra high end' speakers if I may...

If looks aren't important (oh yes they are in domestic high end as most subjective audiophiles seem to listen with all senses and especially their eyes!!! - imo obviously), then what about a proper pair of decent ACTIVE speakers from the usual suspects? No need for separate amps, the drivers are properly matched to the enclosures and amp packs driving them and technical performance is usually rather better than 'most' passive speakers I feel (with very few exceptions generally I'd suggest).

Just another avenue to pursue, especially as conventional audio dealers only have an interest in separate boxes and extremely profitable cables and other accessories, to be upgraded, bring more and more potential profit into the equation...