Can different CD *transports* sound different - when fed into the same DAC?

[Doodski]

They are indoctrinated to expect differences, magazines, retailers and manufacturers, shameful.
Keith

The amount of grooming the public has gone on for too long.

 

[SIY]

Yes they will. I don't know why whatsoever, but they just do.

I've got the following system:

Triangle Genese Quartet speakers,
Yamaha A-S2100 int amp
Cambridge Audio CXN v2 DAC/Streamer
Cambridge Audio CXC CD transport

I tried 3 different CD transports:
CXC - sounds fuller both down low and up top and wider. (Coax connection)
Yamaha CD-S700 - similar to CXC but male voices were thinner - clear difference were on The Verve's songs (coax connection)
Sony 800x blu ray player - very noticeably less wide and thinner overall sound with tinny highs (optical connection).

I do realize there are many people who have done and shown different measurements and how there shouldnt be a difference in sound. And i believe these measurements were done correctly. However the reality is that I've done the aforementioned comparison and there was a clear difference with a clear advantage to the CXC. I wanted to keep the Yamaha as I could use the single remote (my amp is also yamaha), but the difference was there, and I sold it.

To reiterate if its not clear: The Yamaha is a cd player (internal dac) but in all cases I used it as a cd transport, digitally connected to the dac streamer.

No controls for these comparisons, presumably?

 

[JoachimStrobel]

Long ago there was a discussion if a crosstalk between the laser and the spinning motor exist. Like the motor needs a feedback loop from the laser and that could “modulate” the laser causing jitter. Those were the early times when there were CD transports at least for the PC that would simply spin at 2 times the rate needed and the “newer” ones that spun as fast as the cd quality would allow, hence adjusting the rpm depending on what they read. That is of course the default now for data CD players and there are no audio only players. For me, that is a scientific reason transports could sound different.

In those old times there was another discussion that transports that were made to read DVDs and CDs could sound different and that audiophile’s should grab the last CD only players - that was I guess 20 years ago and today it seems that there are only Cd&DVD pickups around. I believe it had to do with the frequency or groove geometry. I would love for an engineer to comment.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Long ago there was a discussion if a crosstalk between the laser and the spinning motor exist. Like the motor needs a feedback loop from the laser and that could “modulate” the laser causing jitter. Those were the early times when there were CD transports at least for the PC that would simply spin at 2 times the rate needed and the “newer” ones that spun as fast as the cd quality would allow, hence adjusting the rpm depending on what they read. That is of course the default now for data CD players and there are no audio only players. For me, that is a scientific reason transports could sound different.

In those old times there was another discussion that transports that were made to read DVDs and CDs could sound different and that audiophile’s should grab the last CD only players - that was I guess 20 years ago and today it seems that there are only Cd&DVD pickups around. I believe it had to do with the frequency or groove geometry. I would love for an engineer to comment.

Jitter is one of those things that is just a bunch baloney. Effectively less than 1/10th of one percent of devices have ever had enough jitter to be heard at all. There is nothing to the idea you have in mind.

 

[Doodski]

Jitter is one of those things that is just a bunch baloney. Effectively less than 1/10th of one percent of devices have ever had enough jitter to be heard at all. There is nothing to the idea you have in mind.

I've viewed CD jitter in the RF eye pattern out of the RF amp and with a good >100MHz analogue oscilloscope with good voltage level triggering (Like a Tektronix lab scope 7000 series.) the jitter is not really a issue. It is there but the eye pattern is stable and not varying or jumping around by much. With a lesser quality oscilloscope voltage triggering setup the eye pattern jumps around and is blurry so one does not get the proper eye pattern and cannot accurately calibrate the eye pattern or see the jitter because the eye pattern is so blurry and twitchy. Scratches and such can be easily seen in the eye pattern destroying huge amounts of data and cannot be heard and people worry about jitter. Jitter meters where somehow popular in the 90s but I never got one because I thought it was kind of gimmicky and I spent my cash on a good oscilloscope and Philips and Sony calibration CDs that cost ~$80-400 each.

This guy thinks this oscilloscope is the bees knees but the RF eye pattern sucks on it. You can see the blurry eye pattern caused by the oscilloscope voltage triggering.

This one is better as you can see.

This is a really good oscilloscope eye pattern and the CD is of a very high grade of optics and the jitter is veryyy low.

 

[JoachimStrobel]

I agree that Jitter ( after roughly 1987) is not an issue. But it is the only mechanism by which a CD sound could be effected so it is the only mechanism to hang on. And wanting to find a rational for the perceived sound difference I throw in those lifesaver arguments. But yes for sure, all digital sounds the same I agree. But then 90% of the fun here would go away.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I agree that Jitter ( after roughly 1987) is not an issue. But it is the only mechanism by which a CD sound could be effected so it is the only mechanism to hang on. And wanting to find a rational for the perceived sound difference I throw in those lifesaver arguments. But yes for sure, all digital sounds the same I agree. But then 90% of the fun here would go away.

Why does the fun go away? The truth of perceived sound differences is not for technical reasons.

 

[solderdude]

Jitter in the eye pattern is inconsequential (as long as the degradation is not too bad for the pre-amp to read the 3T to 11T pulses correctly) as that retrieved data is getting re-clocked anyway before it is processed further down the line.
Clock could become an issue when used as a transport and SPDIF signals (optical/electrical) are not correct or the connected DAC does not process that data correctly.

It is a good indicator for laser-block adjustment (focussing, tracking, spindle motor issues) when using a reference CD.
You can also use it to gauge if a CD is pressed decently enough.

 

[FrankW]

Yes they will. I don't know why whatsoever, but they just do.
I tried 3 different CD transports:
CXC - sounds fuller both down low and up top and wider. (Coax connection)
Yamaha CD-S700 - similar to CXC but male voices were thinner - clear difference were on The Verve's songs (coax connection)
Sony 800x blu ray player - very noticeably less wide and thinner overall sound with tinny highs (optical connection).

Cool story bro

 

[krabapple]

A mantra pushed for at least 40 years now is "Everything matters". They do mean everything. Cables, power cords, power conditioners, each and every aspect of each and every device in the chain and things around it (e.g. cable risers). With no limit and no end to what "might be" audible.

Oh indeed. Some of us remember the pronouncements of Enid Lumley, who was very much of that view. (And who to this day is defended by aged golden ears and snake oil peddlers. )

 

[jsrtheta]

It seems some people here behave at least as much as cult fanatics as people on the other end of the spectrum (the people who believe cable raisers make a difference, etc).

The reaction I got from people who obviously never tested any proper CD transports on a good enough system and particularly speakers that could ever relay any difference through their resolution capability is absolutely hilarious, its basically like being in a schoolyard and children arguing that a porsche isnt better than a ferrari when their experience is limited to NFS.

If your reference is based on either someone posting a VISUAL test with numbers and charts on the internet, you don't know what you're talking about. If your experience is based on trying out some budget cd players on budget speakers, of course you most probably can't tell any difference.

The important thing here is the OP's question. To which my answer is YES, some transports sound better than other, particularly as per my personal experience if we're talking about dedicated cd transport boxes.

Everything else is noise from people triggered by the possibility that there might be differences in audio chain components that up until now can't always be properly represented through measurements.

Make it stop...

 

[jsrtheta]

I always liked Peter Aczel's summary of this kind of reasoning: "Making the 1s more 1-ish, and the 0s more 0-ish."

 

[Talisman]

It seems some people here behave at least as much as cult fanatics as people on the other end of the spectrum (the people who believe cable raisers make a difference, etc).

The reaction I got from people who obviously never tested any proper CD transports on a good enough system and particularly speakers that could ever relay any difference through their resolution capability is absolutely hilarious, its basically like being in a schoolyard and children arguing that a porsche isnt better than a ferrari when their experience is limited to NFS.

If your reference is based on either someone posting a VISUAL test with numbers and charts on the internet, you don't know what you're talking about. If your experience is based on trying out some budget cd players on budget speakers, of course you most probably can't tell any difference.

The important thing here is the OP's question. To which my answer is YES, some transports sound better than other, particularly as per my personal experience if we're talking about dedicated cd transport boxes.

Everything else is noise from people triggered by the possibility that there might be differences in audio chain components that up until now can't always be properly represented through measurements.

as the detractors of arguments based on scientific evaluations imagine us

as we really are

I find it truly UNBEARABLE the insinuation that always appears in these discussions, of us starving poor people who can't afford the equipment good enough to understand the differences between CD transports.
It is not so. You are not the only owner of quality playback systems.

Most users here have sound systems absolutely capable of faithfully reproducing everything in the human audible range.
Get those ridiculous arguments out of here, or prove that you can hear a difference between 0 and 1 once you don't see where they're coming from.

 

[ahofer]

But then 90% of the fun here would go away.

People just need to reframe. If they like to tweak, the room and EQ are open playgrounds. I wonder why we resist so.

@Talisman

I find it truly UNBEARABLE the insinuation that always appears in these discussions, of us starving poor people who can't afford the equipment good enough to understand the differences between CD transports.
It is not so. You are not the only owner of quality playback systems.

The unearned condescension is so irritating. I’ve reached a point in my life, 35 years into a NYC finance career, where I can afford what I like. But I don’t throw money at fictions. There’s a well-developed wealth redistribution mechanism in high end consumer culture, and it’s hilarious to watch people who think becoming a victim of that mechanism makes you smart.

 

[Noske]

Circa 2008 I bought a quite expensive CD player, a Rega Saturn.

I had cause to have the transport mechanism replaced, as one day it said goodbye. $15 for the mechanism. I now use it only as a transport with coax.

Despite all the splendid dedicated technology and components (the technician was suitably impressed that it has Nichicon capacitors) I feel slightly embarrassed that it is now used as just a spinner which any cheap DVD player can do.

 

[jsrtheta]

Circa 2008 I bought a quite expensive CD player, a Rega Saturn.

I had cause to have the transport mechanism replaced, as one day it said goodbye. $15 for the mechanism. I now use it only as a transport with coax.

Despite all the splendid dedicated technology and components (the technician was suitably impressed that it has Nichicon capacitors) I feel slightly embarrassed that it is now used as just a spinner which any cheap DVD player can do.

Hey, at least you got a cool looking transport out of the deal.

 

[Noske]

Hey, at least you got a cool looking transport out of the deal.

Quite so. The well known novelty Star Trek look. A keeper.

 

[OldenEars]

Quite so. The well known novelty Star Trek look. A keeper.

Don't knock it I always thought they looked cool in a VHS top loader sort of way.

Also, the looks clearly make it sound better. Win win

 

[Hatto]

Answering the question in the title: No, definitely and absolutely NOT.

Unless:
In existence of VERY high EMI (like within 1m of a busy cell tower) with only one of the transport cables being shielded.
Sources somehow not being level matched.
In existence of listener bias or psychoacoustic delusion.

 

[SkyTrax79]

If there were really differences in sound between transports we could say the same thing about other digital formats where the same data is stored, hard disks, DAT tapes, flash memory, they can all have reading errors and they have correction systems. Same thing for video, it would be like saying "The yellow on the picture is not correct, it's due to my low-end SSD". The principle is the same, a data stream recovered from a media and reconstructed in analog waves.