Can different CD *transports* sound different - when fed into the same DAC?

[BDWoody]

However the reality is that I've done the aforementioned comparison and there was a clear difference with a clear advantage to the CXC.

Did you do this comparison without knowing which was playing? Subjective listening comparisons without basic controls will almost always lead to hearing differences.

Here's a video our host put together to get more into it.

 

[benkatz]

Did you do this comparison without knowing which was playing? Subjective listening comparisons without basic controls will almost always lead to hearing differences.

Here's a video our host put together to get more into it.

The difference was very clear for me. As I said, I was actually hoping the Yamaha would sound best or at least as good as the CXC, but it didn't.

Also "Subjective listening comparisons without basic controls will almost always lead to hearing differences." This is partly incorrect. Statistically, most times such tests will lead to hearing differences, particularly when one is biases towards a componen t/an outcome. However, as stated, most times is not "always" and in my case, my bias was completely negated by what I heared. We must also factor in the blu ray player which was very much clearly different sounding than the other two.

 

[voodooless]

in my case, my bias was completely negated by what I heared.

Uhuh…

 

[Talisman]

The difference was very clear for me.

if they had given me one euro for every time I read this sentence, I would be rich

 

[BDWoody]

The difference was very clear for me.

It always is, until you can't peek. Try it before dismissing it. Doubling down won't make the claim more believable.

 

[ahofer]

As a long time employee in the industry. I can guarantee a customer will hear a difference if you tell them there is one. You simply suggested it. " listen to this particularly expensive model"..then 'now listen to a cheaper mass market one". U have already put in their head to expect it to sound worse. U could play the same player twice with that line and a customer would hear a difference.

I reduced a salesman to a gibberish mess by saying I didn’t hear a difference between the fancy Lumin streamer and the one built into an amp.

 

[ahofer]

Yes they will. I don't know why whatsoever, but they just do.

I've got the following system:

Triangle Genese Quartet speakers,
Yamaha A-S2100 int amp
Cambridge Audio CXN v2 DAC/Streamer
Cambridge Audio CXC CD transport

I tried 3 different CD transports:
CXC - sounds fuller both down low and up top and wider. (Coax connection)
Yamaha CD-S700 - similar to CXC but male voices were thinner - clear difference were on The Verve's songs (coax connection)
Sony 800x blu ray player - very noticeably less wide and thinner overall sound with tinny highs (optical connection).

I do realize there are many people who have done and shown different measurements and how there shouldnt be a difference in sound. And i believe these measurements were done correctly. However the reality is that I've done the aforementioned comparison and there was a clear difference with a clear advantage to the CXC. I wanted to keep the Yamaha as I could use the single remote (my amp is also yamaha), but the difference was there, and I sold it.

To reiterate if its not clear: The Yamaha is a cd player (internal dac) but in all cases I used it as a cd transport, digitally connected to the dac streamer.

Extremely unlikely that your different perception results from a difference in audible signal. Sorry.

 

[Owl]

I can understand how the coaxial output ( voltage) could differ between units, but what about optical.? Is the range enough to cause any noticeable difference?

 

[Gorgonzola]

I don't care because I don't listen to CDs played in real-time any more, I rip everything to FLAC or sometimes ALAC. AccurateRip usually verifies that my rips are correct.

 

[Mr. Widget]

I have a Parasound DAC 2000 D/A that I tried feeding with 3 CD Streams:
Parasound CD Transport via XLR
Oppo103 via Coax
Panasonic Laserdisk player via Toslink.

I had two Cd which I accidentally bought twice.
The XLR and Coax stream sounded identical, the Toslink was not as good. If that reflects the transport I do not know. I tried for years to buy a CEC/ Parasound belt drive CD transport just for the fun of it. However, the fun was too expensive and now I stream and CDs are a thing of the past.

Years before ASR was even a dream in the deepest reaches of Amir's subconscious I did a number of tests that were positively not up to the standards required to be irrefutable.

That said, I performed a number of semi controlled blind tests and my take away was that every CD player or dedicated transport that I ran through the same DAC sounded the same. I also played an iPod through the Wadia 170i and its digital output sounded the same through the same DAC. Comparing the output of a NAS through a Sonos Connect playing a lossless copy of the same disc sounded the same through the same DAC... but I "thought" the sound of the Toslink input on the DAC didn't sound as good as the XLR or digital coax inputs.

Since these comparisons were not up to the standards required for an irrefutable test, today I am not 100% convinced that the Toslink connection was inferior, but that was my impression at the time.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

The difference was very clear for me. As I said, I was actually hoping the Yamaha would sound best or at least as good as the CXC, but it didn't.

Classic! What did your wife have to say about the difference she heard from the kitchen?

 

[Purité Audio]

Way back when Windows used to mangle the data stream which was pre Vista? ,I remember there was a service pack that cured the issue.
Everyone used Macs because they had bit perfect output, I have through the years commissioned two ‘audio computers’ stripped down OS linear power supply SOTM/JPLAy sound cards, Amarra software every week that was recommended by Computer audiophile, always compared to my Macbook through the same dac, not a squeak of difference .
State of the art digital replay costs relatively peanuts.
Keith

 

[ahofer]

It is very difficult for people to accept the good news.

The entire chain from music storage/sourcing to amplification is a solved problem for all but the corner cases, and doesn't have to cost much. To really improve fidelity, you have to spend your money and time on speakers, rooms, and EQ.

On the other hand, this is hard - speakers are harder to move, measuring requires learning, and treating rooms can be aesthetically challenging. Better to pretend a new box or wire in front of the transducer is the answer.

 

[krabapple]

Thoughts appreciated.

It's yet another misbegotten youtube video by a deluded and/or scamming 'audiophile'

If his transports sound different, one or both aren't doing their job: to send bit-perfect data to a DAC. Errors from reading and data transport would not manifest in the gooey audiophile terms he uses. And he isn't even comparing like to like, as Blumlein notes. All that apart from the basic comparison method flaws.

Stop giving these useless videos air here (or anywhere). They deserve to languish in obscurity.

And the posts that sprout inevitably like weeds in these threads, reporting 'But hey I hear differences in my transports too, so yes they DO sound different! (when I compare sighted and non level matched)' certainly aren't any more convincing. They reflect an embarrassing fundamental lack of understanding of how audio science (the AS in ASR) works.

 

[benkatz]

It seems some people here behave at least as much as cult fanatics as people on the other end of the spectrum (the people who believe cable raisers make a difference, etc).

The reaction I got from people who obviously never tested any proper CD transports on a good enough system and particularly speakers that could ever relay any difference through their resolution capability is absolutely hilarious, its basically like being in a schoolyard and children arguing that a porsche isnt better than a ferrari when their experience is limited to NFS.

If your reference is based on either someone posting a VISUAL test with numbers and charts on the internet, you don't know what you're talking about. If your experience is based on trying out some budget cd players on budget speakers, of course you most probably can't tell any difference.

The important thing here is the OP's question. To which my answer is YES, some transports sound better than other, particularly as per my personal experience if we're talking about dedicated cd transport boxes.

Everything else is noise from people triggered by the possibility that there might be differences in audio chain components that up until now can't always be properly represented through measurements.

 

[voodooless]

Ah, the good old “your system is not resolving enough” argument. Very original…

 

[benkatz]

Ah, the good old “your system is not resolving enough” argument. Very original…

The originality of a statement is a non sequitur in this argument. The fact of the matter is that a more resolving system, particularly speakers, "resolve" more transparently audio information. If you don't think that is true, then, i have no reason to even argue about that ). However that can be easily observed when one goes from a budget to a mote hifi system.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I'm just into the first part of the video. And a guy says they level matched them. Within .23 db.......................nope not good enough. And apparently this is both a DAC vs CD player comparison and a digital transport comparison.

Starting with the transports. So then he describes things like forward midrange, and soundstage and blah, blah, blah. He says on one comparison they switched back and forth a lot, and leaves you thinking the muddled Sony was perhaps only listened to once. Did he identify them different reliably 10 of 10 times or 1 of 1 or did he even keep those kind of notes. It is not clear. Did his test consist of switching everytime knowing he was hearing one of two though not knowing the identities of the two in use? If so, and thar is how it seems from his description, then this test isn't worthwhile at all. Generally if you let someone hear A and then B, they'll think they hear differences. If they know when it is A and when it is B they haven't shown they really hear them differently. If it is A sometimes followed by B and sometimes by A and vice versa you can get somewhere, but this doesn't sound like what they did.

Now when you get to the CD player comparisons, it does not sound blinded at all. Just listens and described and surprise, surprise his evaluation follows the price directly.

Now we get to his explanation on the transports and we have 100% crap. The old jitter bugaboo. The power supply on the digital out blah, blah, blah crap. You could listen to my 8th generation copy files. The file is sent thru a DAC with some jitter, into an ADC with some more jitter, rinse and repeat 8 times. Could have like 16 times the jitter in the final file. You will be hard pressed to hear any difference. Plus he just assumes jitter performance follows price. We know from Amir's tests that is not at all true. And error correction, oh please, this virtually never happens, and if it happens the data is corrected anyway. You don't hear that. You cannot hear that. And then he finishes with the old my system is highly, highly resolving and perhaps your is not and you won't hear it. He has young ears too he says. Gag a maggot with a spoon bad.

You listened to that entire thing so the rest of us didn't have to. Thank you for your service.

 

[BDWoody]

The fact of the matter is that a more resolving system, particularly speakers, "resolve" more transparently audio information.

Which has nothing to do with non-broken digital transports.

The reaction I got from people who obviously never tested any proper CD transports on a good enough system and particularly speakers that could ever relay any difference through their resolution capability is absolutely hilarious

Couldn't help but double down with the predictable insults thrown in for good measure...

You can call it a day in this thread.

 

[voodooless]

The originality of a statement is a non sequitur in this argument. The fact of the matter is that a more resolving system, particularly speakers, "resolve" more transparently audio information. If you don't think that is true, then, i have no reason to even argue about that ).

So what physical parameter make a system more resolving? And what do they “resolve” coming from a digital stream?

However that can be easily observed when one goes from a budget to a mote hifi system.

How is price a factor in this? If this forum has shown anything, it is that price has totally no bearing on objective sound quality.