Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[Brian Hall]

So if you process audio output from a digital source until people can't tell the difference between that and a vinyl source, people who like vinyl sonics will probably like that too. While that's been discussed upthread, I don't see how the result would discredit anyone who likes the somewhat different sonics of vinyl-sourced playback?

Digital can be degraded enough to sound like Vinyl records. Vinyl records can't be improved enough to have the same sound quality as digital.

 

[Axo1989]

Digital can be degraded enough to sound like Vinyl records. Vinyl records can't be improved enough to have the same sound quality as digital.

Pretty much, except for your somewhat self-referential use of 'degraded' and 'improved'.

Some time back in another thread @IPunchCholla posted a blind comparison between digital and vinyl-sourced examples of a track by The Smile. So we could listen and describe the sonics without being certain which was which. Happily it was music I liked and was familiar with so the task was easy for me. I preferred the digital-sourced example overall, I perceived it as sharper/clearer and I'm used to that sound, not having a turntable or any records myself. But some of the sonic differences of the vinyl source—which I perceived and described as warmer bass, slightly softer/smoother transients—were pleasant and I could see people enjoying or preferring them.

So while we can say that digital tech enables greater fidelity to the signal, we may or may not not perceive that as an improvement, depending on the material, our tastes, reproduction setup and so on. Also the differences are quite subtle. Absent giveaways like surface noise, I expect most people wouldn't notice which source. The argument that it's not state of the art is true of the technology, the argument that the sound is not high-fi rests on the narcissism of small differences.

 

[Newman]

At this point, Cleansound is just showing full troll blossom. You are doomed to fail, he has learned the standard trope words and is one of those types.

[To CleanSound] But of course you are - you're displaying disapproval of those who enjoy something you don't approve of. You're a killjoy, plain and simple. There's something about LPs and the sounds they make that turn some people on. And you don't like that. Anybody who points out the illogical nature of your arguments gets your disapproval even if they are fundamentally right. Right now, you're trolling.

And ...the personal attacks begin. Less than a day after @CleanSound 's re-entry into this thread. @BDWoody to note. @AdamG to note.

I have followed @CleanSound 's recent posts here, and it looks to me like his message is simply that the reason for the vinyl revival is primarily nostalgia for older vinyl diehards, and primarily trendiness for the new entrants. Which is basically in agreement with the OP's general position. Now, last time I checked, agreeing with the OP is the exact opposite of trolling.

Basically, this kind of trigger-happy name-calling is a bullying behaviour. I think it's offensive. I don't see why we should have to put up with it, repeatedly.

As can be seen, the first-quoted member above seems unable to control himself despite the friendliest of warnings. It is not hard for me to see who is generally the poorly-behaving one here.

As can also be seen, the standard of behaviour for everyone in this thread has been clearly laid out, in unequivocal terms. I don't think the above posts meet that clearly stated standard. It can also be seen that being thin-skinned about reading descriptions of the shortcomings of vinyl isn't going to cut it here. To quote the moderator, "Vinyl Lovers come here with the understanding that the Vinyl Format is a compromised system and that you may be told that over and over again." If you can't see the difference between those words and "You are a troll for describing the compromises of vinyl", then you probably need to vacate this thread, as a minimum.

The Official Arbiter has spoken. Does anyone wish for The Appointer of The Official Arbiter to further illuminate?

 

[pderousse]

Digital can be degraded enough to sound like Vinyl records. Vinyl records can't be improved enough to have the same sound quality as digital.

Before CD hit the market, DBX developed an encoding process that compressed the signal onto vinyl records and then with the use of a DBX Vinyl Record Decoder in playback, uncompressed the signal, thus reducing noise and expanding range. I stumbled into it a couple years ago by accident and have since bought the decoder and a few more DBX encoded disks. One must use the decoder with DBX encoded vinyl records, of which only about 200 titles were ever made between 1979-1982 or so. I can A/B/C rapidly between digital and DBX vinyl versions of for instance Cal Tjader’s La Onda Va Bien, and the latter sounds so exceptional, I sometimes lose count and am fooled (no pops, no needle drop, dead silent).

 

[MattHooper]

Pretty much, except for your somewhat self-referential use of 'degraded' and 'improved'.

Some time back in another thread @IPunchCholla posted a blind comparison between digital and vinyl-sourced examples of a track by The Smile. So we could listen and describe the sonics without being certain which was which. Happily it was music I liked and was familiar with so the task was easy for me. I preferred the digital-sourced example overall, I perceived it as sharper/clearer and I'm used to that sound, not having a turntable or any records myself. But some of the sonic differences of the vinyl source—which I perceived and described as warmer bass, slightly softer/smoother transients—were pleasant and I could see people enjoying or preferring them.

So while we can say that digital tech enables greater fidelity to the signal, we may or may not not perceive that as an improvement, depending on the material, our tastes, reproduction setup and so on. Also the differences are quite subtle. Absent giveaways like surface noise, I expect most people wouldn't notice which source. The argument that it's not state of the art is true of the technology, the argument that the sound is not high-fi rests on the narcissism of small differences.

The part I bolded is important IMO.

When I talk about how vinyl sounds, why I like it, I'm usually (though not always) referencing in my own set up. Whether my tube amps play a role in the sound and may complement whatever is coming out of the turntable cartridge who knows, but also much of the tweaking of my set up in terms of speaker positioning, playing with acoustics, is done with my vinyl source (and digital, but a lot of vinyl). So I wouldn't be surprised if in my set up I've sort of optimized what I like in the vinyl sound and maybe mitigated some of it's faults or inferior aspects.

I don't always like vinyl by default. For instance a friend with an expensive vinyl set up that I've enjoyed before got some new speakers in and also a new cartridge/phono set up. I'd brought some records to enjoy but found I wasn't keen at all on the sound of the vinyl playback in that set up and preferred digital sources just about every time. Records tended to sound brighter and slightly more coarse, whereas digital was always smoother and more timbrally beautiful and accurate to my ears.

So to your point, I think it's worth remembering that the exigencies and quirks involved in vinyl set ups, and how someone may have optimized their system (remembering that not all audiophiles are going for accuracy but for some sound they enjoy), can play a part in preferences and what one is hearing.

 

[Robin L]

And ...the personal attacks begin. Less than a day after @CleanSound 's re-entry into this thread. @BDWoody to note. @AdamG to note.

I have followed @CleanSound 's recent posts here, and it looks to me like his message is simply that the reason for the vinyl revival is primarily nostalgia for older vinyl diehards, and primarily trendiness for the new entrants. Which is basically in agreement with the OP's general position. Now, last time I checked, agreeing with the OP is the exact opposite of trolling.

Basically, this kind of trigger-happy name-calling is a bullying behaviour. I think it's offensive. I don't see why we should have to put up with it, repeatedly.

As can be seen, the first-quoted member above seems unable to control himself despite the friendliest of warnings. It is not hard for me to see who is generally the poorly-behaving one here.

As can also be seen, the standard of behaviour for everyone in this thread has been clearly laid out, in unequivocal terms. I don't think the above posts meet that clearly stated standard. It can also be seen that being thin-skinned about reading descriptions of the shortcomings of vinyl isn't going to cut it here. To quote the moderator, "Vinyl Lovers come here with the understanding that the Vinyl Format is a compromised system and that you may be told that over and over again." If you can't see the difference between those words and "You are a troll for describing the compromises of vinyl", then you probably need to vacate this thread, as a minimum.

The Official Arbiter has spoken. Does anyone wish for The Appointer of The Official Arbiter to further illuminate?

The OP essentially threw out a question - "can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?" The OP might very well wonder why there has been a sustained increase of interest in the LP medium with attendant increases in sales, but the original post is in the form of a question. One would expect a variety of answers because there has been a sustained increase of sales of LPs and turntables. This is not an issue of agreeing/disagreeing with the original post. It is a matter of individuals giving individual responses to the question. I know that some find it hard to believe that anyone would actually prefer the sound of LP playback over digital playback, but there are people that do. Telling those people that they are idiots is really beside the point. Appreciation of sound is subjective.

I've owned thousands of LPs and many different turntables. Four years ago I got rid of three turntables and nearly two thousand LPs, along with well over one hundred 78s. I have no intention of ever having an LP or a turntable ever again. I don't need to be convinced of the downside of LP replay. I had a side-hustle of transferring LPs to digital media for over a decade, heard every conceivable flaw of that particular analog medium in the process. I don't like the sound of "needledrops" either and hardly ever listen to the digital transfers I've made of LPs I've owned.

But this whole argument is really beside the point. Some people have more sophisticated LP playback gear than others. Some people are attached to record collections accumulated over many years. And some people think LPs are cool. Telling these people that they are wrong is just a waste of time.

 

[Axo1989]

The part I bolded is important IMO.

When I talk about how vinyl sounds, why I like it, I'm usually (though not always) referencing in my own set up. Whether my tube amps play a role in the sound and may complement whatever is coming out of the turntable cartridge who knows, but also much of the tweaking of my set up in terms of speaker positioning, playing with acoustics, is done with my vinyl source (and digital, but a lot of vinyl). So I wouldn't be surprised if in my set up I've sort of optimized what I like in the vinyl sound and maybe mitigated some of it's faults or inferior aspects.

I don't always like vinyl by default. For instance a friend with an expensive vinyl set up that I've enjoyed before got some new speakers in and also a new cartridge/phono set up. I'd brought some records to enjoy but found I wasn't keen at all on the sound of the vinyl playback in that set up and preferred digital sources just about every time. Records tended to sound brighter and slightly more coarse, whereas digital was always smoother and more timbrally beautiful and accurate to my ears.

So to your point, I think it's worth remembering that the exigencies and quirks involved in vinyl set ups, and how someone may have optimized their system (remembering that not all audiophiles are going for accuracy but for some sound they enjoy), can play a part in preferences and what one is hearing.

I agree (and it's interesting that the negatives you list about your friend's vinyl setup vs digital are somewhat opposite the usual impressions). I think that's why I don't put much weight on the "not hi-fi" argument. You can have a good hi-fi setup with vinyl source (or with digital source) but there are many other things to get right. Having a vinyl source neither guarantees nor precludes "hi-fi".

 

[pderousse]

Before CD hit the market, DBX developed an encoding process that compressed the signal onto vinyl records and then with the use of a DBX Vinyl Record Decoder in playback, uncompressed the signal, thus reducing noise and expanding range. I stumbled into it a couple years ago by accident and have since bought the decoder and a few more DBX encoded disks. One must use the decoder with DBX encoded vinyl records, of which only about 200 titles were ever made between 1979-1982 or so. I can A/B/C rapidly between digital and DBX vinyl versions of for instance Cal Tjader’s La Onda Va Bien, and the latter sounds so exceptional, I sometimes lose count and am fooled (no pops, no needle drop, dead silent).

Also, I’m not sure digital can be downgraded to vinyl. I assume you are referring to vinyl filters that add clicks and pops. I’ve never listened to such gimmicks. I think my interest in vinyl is along the lines of Matt’s.. Often I prefer digital, but maybe just as often, when I can do a fast (volume leveled) a/b comparison, the best I can say is that it is different, not better but different and sometimes preferable to digital. Presumably, between the two I’m hearing different variables in production, and for me that’s an embarrassment of riches.

 

[Axo1989]

Also, I’m not sure digital can be downgraded to vinyl. I assume you are referring to vinyl filters that add clicks and pops. I’ve never listened to such gimmicks. ...

Not sure what that poster had in mind but of course we can do most anything with DSP, I expect there are DAW plug-ins that do FR, phase and transient jiggery-pokery as well as simple surface noise.

When I say we can do almost anything, I don't mean it's always straightforward to do a near-perfect job. Check out the lengths that designers of synthetics sounds go to when they try to emulate analog instruments if that sort of thing is of interest.

 

[pderousse]

Not sure what that poster had in mind but of course we can do most anything with DSP, I expect there are DAW plug-ins that do FR, phase and transient jiggery-pokery as well as simple surface noise.

When I say we can do almost anything, I don't mean it's always straightforward to do a near-perfect job. Check out the lengths that designers of synthetics sounds go to when they try to emulate analog instruments if that sort of thing is of interest.

Perhaps designing such a filter could lead to the ultimate A/B test and answer the OP.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

One more thing, I'm willing to bet, if I put you in front of a system handed you the album art of a LP and a TT playing the LP but tricked you by not even connecting it to the system, and then play a digital file instead but put a vinyl filter on it to simulate vinyl, you wouldn't even know and you will get the same exact "compelling listening experience."

You could replace the paintings in the museum with digital screens which look the same. Nobody would know and they would have the same 'compelling visual experience'. Just given the choice plenty of people prefer the images stored in analogue. It's a hobby so it's their money, their choice.

 

[MattHooper]

Absent giveaways like surface noise, I expect most people wouldn't notice which source. The argument that it's not state of the art is true of the technology, the argument that the sound is not high-fi rests on the narcissism of small differences.

Well put!

 

[Platypus20]

A large number of my cdrs were made from vinyl sources, with the pops, crackles and surface noise, it’s the music that counts

 

[krabapple]

Any new explanations for the vinyl renaissance? Does it have anything to do with supermassive black holes at the centers of galaxies, for example?

Only 3,000 more posts to go before we hit 10K.

 

[Robin L]

A large number of my cdrs were made from vinyl sources, with the pops, crackles and surface noise, it’s the music that counts

For me, that would be a problem. I listen to a large number of 1930s recordings. De-clicking and noise removal software has become very sophisticated. I used Click Repair for many years, it wasn't enough for me. But what I've heard recently from Warner Brothers Classics from the 1930s has negligible surface noise. I have a number of CDRs I burned back when I had LPs, haven't played them in years. Obviously, your milage might vary, but I don't see the point in putting myself through these sorts of problems when I have so many other recordings I can listen to.

 

[Robin L]

Any new explanations for the vinyl renaissance? Does it have anything to do with supermassive black holes at the centers of galaxies, for example?

Only 3,000 more posts to go before we hit 10K.

The smell of freshly molten PVC. Nobody's touched on that, so far.

 

[krabapple]

For me, that would be a problem. I listen to a large number of 1930s recordings. De-clicking and noise removal software has become very sophisticated. I used Click Repair for many years, it wasn't enough for me. But what I've heard recently from Warner Brothers Classics from the 1930s has negligible surface noise. I have a number of CDRs I burned back when I had LPs, haven't played them i years. Obviously, your milage might vary, but I don't see the point in putting myself through these sorts of problems when I have so many other recordings I can listen to.

Back when I was doing a fair bit of it, I found manually repairing 'needledrop' clicks to be what the kids today would call ASMR. Curiously hypnotic and soothing in its mindless repetitiveness and deeply satisfying in its effectiveness.

But not enough to make me miss vinyl.

Certain posts and posters on this thread exhibit some of that mindless repetitiveness but they lack all of the other charms to generate ASMR, alas.

 

[drmevo]

And if you like vinyl, like away, but know that vinyl is not HiFi (High Fidelity) audio reproduction. It may have been when it first came out, but it is no longer and never will it be ever again.

Is my HD TV no longer HD because 4K and 8K are now available?

 

[Axo1989]

And ...the personal attacks begin. Less than a day after @CleanSound 's re-entry into this thread. @BDWoody to note. @AdamG to note.

I have followed @CleanSound 's recent posts here, and it looks to me like his message is simply that the reason for the vinyl revival is primarily nostalgia for older vinyl diehards, and primarily trendiness for the new entrants. Which is basically in agreement with the OP's general position. Now, last time I checked, agreeing with the OP is the exact opposite of trolling.

Basically, this kind of trigger-happy name-calling is a bullying behaviour. I think it's offensive. I don't see why we should have to put up with it, repeatedly.

As can be seen, the first-quoted member above seems unable to control himself despite the friendliest of warnings. It is not hard for me to see who is generally the poorly-behaving one here.

As can also be seen, the standard of behaviour for everyone in this thread has been clearly laid out, in unequivocal terms. I don't think the above posts meet that clearly stated standard. It can also be seen that being thin-skinned about reading descriptions of the shortcomings of vinyl isn't going to cut it here. To quote the moderator, "Vinyl Lovers come here with the understanding that the Vinyl Format is a compromised system and that you may be told that over and over again." If you can't see the difference between those words and "You are a troll for describing the compromises of vinyl", then you probably need to vacate this thread, as a minimum.

The Official Arbiter has spoken. Does anyone wish for The Appointer of The Official Arbiter to further illuminate?

So who have we lost from the thread? For a moment it looked like @CleanSound was benched, but @AdamG's post advising same is gone now (unless I'm misremembering and it was @BDWoody). Can I hold the (slim) hope that the former will explain the point of their ABX challenge in response to my query? And/or have we lost @Anton D's sharp ripostes to @Newman's energetic dirge?

 

[Platypus20]

The smell of freshly molten PVC. Nobody's touched on that, so far.

One of my boiler customers was the MCA record pressing plant in Gloversville, NY, the aroma was amazing…..