Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[Leporello]

“But the sound of digital music, as every vinyl fan knows, is not, and never will be, half so rich and warm as the sound of an LP….” - Guardian op ed.

Well, not every “vinyl fan”. Yikes.

Loved this tongue firmly in cheek editorial. The last paragraph about coffee is a nice swipe at Instagram cliches (self important cult of vinyl being one of them):

Served in a proper mug – hand-thrown earthenware, perhaps – it must be drunk slowly, the hands wrapped around it contemplatively, this mechanism for a necessary pause.

 

[egellings]

Loved this tongue firmly in cheek editorial. The last paragraph about coffee is a nice swipe at Instagram cliches (self important cult of vinyl being one of them):

Have NPR on the rajo, too.

 

[MattHooper]

Loved this tongue firmly in cheek editorial. The last paragraph about coffee is a nice swipe at Instagram cliches (self important cult of vinyl being one of them):

Agreed that some of the stuff about vinyl can come off as too precious.

On the other hand, aside from repeating the myth about vinyl sounding indubitably better, the author does describe aspects of the experience that many enjoy.

And if one is only dismissive of these little things...even the description of how coffee drinking can be altered by a certain approach...then one is working with a pretty arid view of human psychology.

 

[Robin L]

Can you give me an example of a rational choice, and what makes it rational?

Sure - choosing digital recording over analog recording because it matches the sound of the microphone feed, and similarly choosing a digital playback format over an analog playback format because it clearly matches the source recording.

Let X = X, like Laurie Anderson once said.

Using an analog tape recorder as an effect, as signal processing, is rational enough as long as one understands that it will not be an accurate reproduction of the original recording. And, of course, it is an effect one finds in numerous rock 'n' roll productions.

I've got a fair representation of the RCA Victor Living Stereo recordings reissued/remastered as SACDs and I've owned many of them in their original, early, "Shaded Dog" LP issues. The SACDs have greater clarity and less overload on peaks than the original LP issues, but the SACDs still have overload on peaks and a loss of clarity in general. That overload on peaks and general loss of clarity are clearly in the original recordings. I do not personally see a preference for the Shaded Dogs as rational, particularly considering the high cost of mint originals. I've owned various remasters of these recordings on LP and can't recall any that were preferable to good Shaded Dogs. Mind you, thanks to expert remastering, the SACDs retain the sense of body and presence of the original LPs.

 

[Anton D]

“But the sound of digital music, as every vinyl fan knows, is not, and never will be, half so rich and warm as the sound of an LP….” - Guardian op ed.

Well, not every “vinyl fan”. Yikes.

The Guardian uses the same crappy type of generalized logic that the anti-Vinyl Idiocracy uses. Nice irony.

 

[Anton D]

Back in the day, we earned those music suggestions, discovered the links with other artists over time. Statistics didn't matter. We did things by word of mouth. Punks and such did it via duplicated zines and small clubs. Other genres did it via trusted record shops and dedicated nightclubs and DJs.

Quite frankly, it often seems all too easy these days when the next link in the chain is just a click or tap away. The whole lot more doesn't seem to weigh against the cultural significance of the LP record. Though I'm not in that game these days, and I think new people to the audiophile experience should start with good digital before deciding what to do next, I do think that that cultural weight counts for a lot.

Over time, some aspect of music via streaming will gain cultural weight as well. It will catch us by surprise when it happens. After all, who could have forseen the Apple vs Android phone wars and how much that would mean to people until the bile started?

Whatever it takes to make this hobby more solipsistic, I’d predict.

 

[MattHooper]

Sure - choosing digital recording over analog recording because it matches the sound of the microphone feed, and similarly choosing a digital playback format over an analog playback format because it clearly matches the source recording.

Sure, absolutely!

But it's only rational insofar as you've assumed some goal, based on what you value.

If you prefer the most accurate sound, then your goal and action follows rationally from that desire.

But if one prefers a more colored sound, perhaps vinyl coloration in particular, then it wouldn't be rational to take the steps you mention. It would be more rational to choose vinyl.

(Or...even if one thinks digital sounds better or preferable, one may still have all sorts of other desires that other aspects of vinyl fulfills, such as they ownership aspect, physical qualities, focus it may bring to listening depending on the individual, etc).

 

[MattHooper]

Here's another totally rational take (for the benefits of streaming), from the comments in the Guardian piece:

"I was pondering this issue only the other day. I’ve dozens & dozens of vinyl LPs and enjoy listening to them, when I have the time & inclination. But often, the practice clashes with other hobbies - I’m often cooking and have hands covered in dough or else still damp from washing them. Other hobbies such as bicycles and guitars similarly leave my hands in state best kept away from records and their players…
And the library services, if I can put it that way, offered by digital music far outweigh that offered by my record collection. What with all the CDs I ripped onto my Mac, bbc’s excellent r3 via their Sounds app and so many rarities popping up on yt, it's possible to find and listen to, virtually any recording I can think of. And they are so readily found, often via voice search, too! One’s LP collection is of course limited to the records one has bought. Not so digital music of course."

For me I love streaming music. Though I find I'm most engaged by streaming via youtube (either on my desktop or in my home theater) because I like watching lots of live performances, DJ gigs, raves etc. I also love to listen to apple music streaming in my surround system! Absolutely glorious!

 

[beagleman]

My argument is that it never really disappeared. It always had that place in the culture. People kept buying turntables in similar numbers, at least in the US where figures were available. The second hand market continued all the way through. There were always audiophiles arguing the superiority of vinyl in their own ways. There were always record collectors. There were always people who did not want to give up their investment in their record collection.

There is certainly no fad. To put this in perspective, the biggest "craze" I can think of is the 1890s bicycle craze: that lasted well under a decade, we are now into year 16 of growth in the vinyl medium. We can argue about reasons and logic, I can take this extreme position of no renaissance, but none of us can deny the fact that this has been going on way too long to be a "fad".

Not sure what to call it, but it is still a drop in the bucket "overall" as far as actual music.
CD is quickly becoming a drop in the bucket.

In fact CD and Vinyl are now a niche product.
I guess where it confuses me, is that most of the vinyl sold in recent years, based on a list I linked or showed earlier in the thread, are almost like 80% just reissues of I believe about 45-50 Classic rock albums, sprinkled in with a handful of actual Current Big sellers such as Taylor Swift etc.

It seems to be an extremely "cherry picked" resurgence. It seems to mostly be Classic rock and some pop music's "Greatest hits" basically.

To me, to qualify as a true resurgence it would have to encompass all music genres and a lot more albums from all eras and so on.
I see it more as a slowly moving bandwagon, that YES it quite a bit more than previous years, but not any true indication of what music people are buying en masse.


Remove 20 classic rock big hits and it all crashes.
Again, not saying all this AGAINST vinyl, I like it enough, but just a reality check.

After all the DSOTM, Thrillers, and Hotel California and Led Zep zoso, and Bob Marley Legends are bought, will it then slowly decline again??

 

[Galliardist]

Not sure what to call it, but it is still a drop in the bucket "overall" as far as actual music.
CD is quickly becoming a drop in the bucket.

In fact CD and Vinyl are now a niche product.
I guess where it confuses me, is that most of the vinyl sold in recent years, based on a list I linked or showed earlier in the thread, are almost like 80% just reissues of I believe about 45-50 Classic rock albums, sprinkled in with a handful of actual Current Big sellers such as Taylor Swift etc.

It seems to be an extremely "cherry picked" resurgence. It seems to mostly be Classic rock and some pop music's "Greatest hits" basically.

To me, to qualify as a true resurgence it would have to encompass all music genres and a lot more albums from all eras and so on.
I see it more as a slowly moving bandwagon, that YES it quite a bit more than previous years, but not any true indication of what music people are buying en masse.


Remove 20 classic rock big hits and it all crashes.
Again, not saying all this AGAINST vinyl, I like it enough, but just a reality check.

After all the DSOTM, Thrillers, and Hotel California and Led Zep zoso, and Bob Marley Legends are bought, will it then slowly decline again??

This is the point, though. About half, or slightly under, of the sales in the US are of a relatively small group of artists at any one time. But the rest? They seem to be smallish runs of LPs that are, as you want, music across genres.

To see this, let's pick a small selection of 2023 releases and rereleases that haven't made those 20 classic rock big hits:

• Albert King, Born under a Bad Sign
• Joshua Redman, Where Are We (Blue Note, jazz)
• Elvis Presley, From Elvis in Memphis
• The Preachers, Stay Out of My World (1960s garage, mono)
• Víkingur Ólafsson (piano) Bach: Goldberg variations
• Hilary Hahn (violin) Ysaye: Six Sonatas for Violin Solo
• Wiener Philharmoniker, Claudio Abbado: Tchaikovsky: Symphony No 4
• Lee "Scratch" Perry: King Perry
• Bert Jansch: Toy Balloon

Five minute's work to find classical, jazz, folk, pop, music from different decades

@MattHooper has listed a few prog albums in this thread already, there will be other releases dotted through.

Ten minutes' work to find these. The various hifi magazines all have reviews of audiophile vinyl of various degrees of obscurity: I haven't chased up MFSL or Analogue Productions in that list either.

I suspect a trip to a couple of record shops would throw up a lot more. So no, it doesn't crash, and these small quantity releases are selling to collectors, and those continuing users of vinyl, as much or more than to audiophiles.

Those small quantity pressings have continued since the "demise" of vinyl in the early 1990s that gets referred to. When I talk about suppressed demand for LPs, I'm on about these releases, not the few big sellers. The difference is now that the numbers of such releases have also multiplied, and they include new and older releases from major labels (I have a couple of DG in there, new and rerelease on that label).

if it was "en masse" we'd be talking 30 times or more overall sales. So, while not that, it;s not what you are seeing, either.

 

[beagleman]

This is the point, though. About half, or slightly under, of the sales in the US are of a relatively small group of artists at any one time. But the rest? They seem to be smallish runs of LPs that are, as you want, music across genres.

To see this, let's pick a small selection of 2023 releases and rereleases that haven't made those 20 classic rock big hits:

• Albert King, Born under a Bad Sign
• Joshua Redman, Where Are We (Blue Note, jazz)
• Elvis Presley, From Elvis in Memphis
• The Preachers, Stay Out of My World (1960s garage, mono)
• Víkingur Ólafsson (piano) Bach: Goldberg variations
• Hilary Hahn (violin) Ysaye: Six Sonatas for Violin Solo
• Wiener Philharmoniker, Claudio Abbado: Tchaikovsky: Symphony No 4
• Lee "Scratch" Perry: King Perry
• Bert Jansch: Toy Balloon

Five minute's work to find classical, jazz, folk, pop, music from different decades

@MattHooper has listed a few prog albums in this thread already, there will be other releases dotted through.

Ten minutes' work to find these. The various hifi magazines all have reviews of audiophile vinyl of various degrees of obscurity: I haven't chased up MFSL or Analogue Productions in that list either.

I suspect a trip to a couple of record shops would throw up a lot more. So no, it doesn't crash, and these small quantity releases are selling to collectors, and those continuing users of vinyl, as much or more than to audiophiles.

Those small quantity pressings have continued since the "demise" of vinyl in the early 1990s that gets referred to. When I talk about suppressed demand for LPs, I'm on about these releases, not the few big sellers. The difference is now that the numbers of such releases have also multiplied, and they include new and older releases from major labels (I have a couple of DG in there, new and rerelease on that label).

if it was "en masse" we'd be talking 30 times or more overall sales. So, while not that, it;s not what you are seeing, either.

I mean yeah sorta agree with you....but...

I was going by actual Sales figures. The millions of units sold in last several years, are mostly all compromised of the same War Horses and a few Current acts

I totally get there are other artists and releases, but they are tiny amounts of units sold overall.

Not sure I even have a point or ax to grind, but feel it is odd, that most of the SALES FIGURES are dominated by a handful of the same (mostly) stuff over and over.
My point was, what will happen when most have their 5th copy of DSOTM, Aja, Crime of the Century or Bob Marley Legend or Thriller etc.??

Is this going to be a long slow bell curve up to an interesting somewhat high point, then just taper out?
I mean I agree there is some REAL growth for sure, but I also see a lot of Nostalgic same old thing buying. To me at least that spells possibly a long term trendy thing, but still trendy.

 

[Galliardist]

I mean yeah sorta agree with you....but...

I was going by actual Sales figures. The millions of units sold in last several years, are mostly all compromised of the same War Horses and a few Current acts

I totally get there are other artists and releases, but they are tiny amounts of units sold overall.

Not sure I even have a point or ax to grind, but feel it is odd, that most of the SALES FIGURES are dominated by a handful of the same (mostly) stuff over and over.
My point was, what will happen when most have their 5th copy of DSOTM, Aja, Crime of the Century or Bob Marley Legend or Thriller etc.??

Is this going to be a long slow bell curve up to an interesting somewhat high point, then just taper out?
I mean I agree there is some REAL growth for sure, but I also see a lot of Nostalgic same old thing buying. To me at least that spells possibly a long term trendy thing, but still trendy.

If you read what I wrote... I estimate that about half of the US sales in 2023 were to those big selling items. About a quarter to the top ten. That leaves around 20 million albums that are distributed among the wider sales in that market.

It's about the same in the UK. I see no reason why it should not be the same at least in predominently English speaking markets. That's quite enough to say that the market is not just the few warhorses. And more, that the smaller release market is older and more established than Taylor Swift's sales.

It would not matter if it was actually ten million in the US and a few million across the other countries in the English speaking bracket. That is still more than enough to sustain the specialist part of the market. This is without thinking about private releases, of which there are many (not just vinyl but also CD), and the international market both incoming and outgoing,

Vjnyl sales are broad based. That is another fact.

 

[Newman]

So for instance you discover that you simply really like chocolate ice cream. You may not in such a case know "why" but the fact is you do. Does this make ordering chocolate ice cream "irrational?" Of course not.

Except you are about to define the terms under which it is indeed irrational, below.

Because rationality, as I said, is the results of the coherent connection between our desires (like wanting to eat chocolate ice cream), our beliefs about the world (formed through evidence and reason) and our deliberations as to which actions are therefore likely to achieve our goal/desire (like eating chocolate ice cream). It's the entire process that amounts to rational action. Rationality helps us Get What We Want, and in ways that are not going to undermine some larger, more extensive or important sets of our desires. (Which is why you may desire a doughnut, but value getting your weight under control more, so not eating the doughnut will be the more rational choice).

...and eating doughnuts and chocolate ice cream turns out to be irrational.

So let's apply this to audiophile choices. Is there an overarching set of desires? Well, yes: experiencing excellence in sound reproduction. If one doesn't have that as an overarching objective, I think I can argue that one has just disqualified oneself from the category of 'audiophile'.

It then becomes irrational for the audiophile to make choices that diminish his or her experience of excellence.

Note that this doesn't sit well with the notion of "just enjoying myself the most". If one is enjoying oneself the most with non-excellent sound reproduction.... well, that's exactly what non-audiophiles do, too, so one has become a non-audiophile.

cheers

 

[atmasphere]

Except you are about to define the terms under which it is indeed irrational, below.

...and eating doughnuts and chocolate ice cream turns out to be irrational.

So let's apply this to audiophile choices. Is there an overarching set of desires? Well, yes: experiencing excellence in sound reproduction. If one doesn't have that as an overarching objective, I think I can argue that one has just disqualified oneself from the category of 'audiophile'.

It then becomes irrational for the audiophile to make choices that diminish his or her experience of excellence.

Note that this doesn't sit well with the notion of "just enjoying myself the most". If one is enjoying oneself the most with non-excellent sound reproduction.... well, that's exactly what non-audiophiles do, too, so one has become a non-audiophile.

cheers

Just to be clear, the desire to listen to music isn't rational

 

[egellings]

Except you are about to define the terms under which it is indeed irrational, below.

...and eating doughnuts and chocolate ice cream turns out to be irrational.

So let's apply this to audiophile choices. Is there an overarching set of desires? Well, yes: experiencing excellence in sound reproduction. If one doesn't have that as an overarching objective, I think I can argue that one has just disqualified oneself from the category of 'audiophile'.

It then becomes irrational for the audiophile to make choices that diminish his or her experience of excellence.

Note that this doesn't sit well with the notion of "just enjoying myself the most". If one is enjoying oneself the most with non-excellent sound reproduction.... well, that's exactly what non-audiophiles do, too, so one has become a non-audiophile.

cheers

Some audiophiles' idea of good sound may be the sort produced by SE 300B amplifiers and the like. It's in the ear of the beholder what constitutes good sound, even if it's not accurate. Some listeners might just prefer Big Tone.

 

[Pe8er]

Well, yes: experiencing excellence in sound reproduction. If one doesn't have that as an overarching objective, I think I can argue that one has just disqualified oneself from the category of 'audiophile'.

Yes, if the "one" you're referring to is a robot. Humans think and act in more than black and white.

 

[Robin L]

Just to be clear, the desire to listen to music isn't rational

I'm not so sure about that. Listening to music is good for the nervous system by all accounts, listening to music in groups aids socialization, and listening to music aids memory, particularly among the elderly.

 

[Anton D]

Yes, if the "one" you're referring to is a robot. Humans think and act in more than black and white.

You are answering into the void.

It's some sort of neurologic trigger thing.

Just enjoy what you enjoy and leave the 'objective excellence' to those who proclaim it for themselves. As Ganesh would approach it...if you can't overcome the obstacle, simply go around it.

 

[Mean & Green]

So let's apply this to audiophile choices. Is there an overarching set of desires? Well, yes: experiencing excellence in sound reproduction. If one doesn't have that as an overarching objective, I think I can argue that one has just disqualified oneself from the category of 'audiophile'.

It then becomes irrational for the audiophile to make choices that diminish his or her experience of excellence.

Note that this doesn't sit well with the notion of "just enjoying myself the most". If one is enjoying oneself the most with non-excellent sound reproduction.... well, that's exactly what non-audiophiles do, too, so one has become a non-audiophile.

cheers

I had to laugh out loud at this. What a load of tripe.

 

[atmasphere]

I'm not so sure about that. Listening to music is good for the nervous system by all accounts, listening to music in groups aids socialization, and listening to music aids memory, particularly among the elderly.

Yup.
But that doesn't change things. Listening to music isn't rational, even with all those benefits. Emotions in general aren't rational either but that doesn't take away from their validity.