Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[MattHooper]

And to be fair to Matt i've never owned any remastered LP's so I can't comment on their sound quality but what I can say is that I used to hate the Rice Krispies of analog (snap, crackle and pop) on albums that had only been played a few times and I took care of my records back then, cleaning them with a carbon fiber brush every time I spun one so as soon as I heard that all gone with CD's I became a digital evangelist. I've pretty much always just been a rock guy too so it's hard for me to even imagine what it was like for classical music aficionados with their soft passages highlighting analog's deficiencies

I tend to buy new vinyl and old, and when I buy old I seek out "mint" condition, which doesn't automatically mean no record noise of course, but it's generally meant for fairly quiet vinyl in most cases. And then with a wash in my ultra sonic record cleaner, the records can get even more quiet.

I have little doubt that I could spin some records for you that you'd find sonically impressive, and also where you wouldn't be hearing any record noise during the music.

On the other hand, there would be all those gray areas where there is some level of audible record noise artifacts which maybe I'm ok listening through, but which would annoy the hell out of you. So listening to the same track I may be "this is fine, I love this" and you may be "I could never put up with this, get me outta here." And I'd completely understand that since we are all sensitive to different things and have our specific goals.

My brother-in-law, who has long been in to good audio (from an engineering standpoint - he'd be an ASR member), gave me all his LPs because he had no use for them. He had a nice high end system, digital source, and wondered "why in god's name would anyone want records anymore?" He came over and we played some of his old records on my system and he was in shock, saying he never knew a record could sound like that. He was confused about why I'd still play records when he came; he wasn't confused by the time he left.

As for rock, I was in to prog and regular rock etc. When CDs took over I happily re-bought much of the stuff I originally had on vinyl with the expectation of better sound. And often that was true, I did think the CDs sounded amazing and they became my default listening experience for decades. But when I got a really good turntable and went back to some of those old rock albums on vinyl I was like "Holy cow do those sound good!" Certainly not all - I tried one of my old favorite April Wine LPs recently (Harder Faster) and it was a disappointment - dull and woolly sounding and I preferred the CD. On the other hand some old Max Webster LPs sound absolutely spectacular - just huge, rich, punchy, clear and dynamic. Though on the other hand it's not like vinyl is some magic elixir - I bought an expensive entire box set of "re-mastered" Max Webster LPs and they were a sonic disappointment - thinner, exaggerated edgy high end, less rich, kind of coarse-sounding. I never listen to it, and prefer the CDs or the original LPs for sound.

 

[egellings]

It's likely the recording itself, rather than the medium it's on that makes the biggest difference.

 

[tuga]

Desire + Fashion = Oniomania

 

[Sal1950]

Vinyl at its best offers a quality of sound that is quite pleasing and enjoyable, in many cases more so than digital

Because it was more accurate to the source, or you just enjoyed it, warts, distortion, inconvenience, and all?

So... given I can get thrilling sound quality from my vinyl set up...and then I ALSO gain the elements I've already written about - the ways the physical aspects of the format add to my enjoyment...why in the world wouldn't I also spin vinyl as well as listen to my digital collection?

I have little doubt that I could spin some records for you that you'd find sonically impressive, and also where you wouldn't be hearing any record noise during the music.

So it doesn't contain any surface noise, zero rice, no wow and flutter, doesn't sound different from beginning to end (inner groove distortion), doesn't contain any of the other 25 or so vinyl sonic failings that have been listed here over and over?

Tell us all the truth Matt cause I have a pretty good idea,
How much have you invested in your vinyl gear to get sound that "in your opinion is almost as good" as the analog output of a $200 DAC?

 

[Robin L]

Because it was more accurate to the source, or you just enjoyed it, warts, distortion, inconvenience, and all?




So it doesn't contain any surface noise, zero rice, no wow and flutter, doesn't sound different from beginning to end (inner groove distortion), doesn't contain any of the other 25 or so vinyl sonic failings that have been listed here over and over?

Tell us all the truth Matt cause I have a pretty good idea,
How much have you invested in your vinyl gear to get sound that "in your opinion is almost as good" as the analog output of a $200 DAC?

It's alrite, we understand---vinyl talked trash about yer momma, what else could you do?

It's like bitching about opera---it's brutally inefficient, frequently mere note-spinning, hard to stay awake through, mammoth waste of artistic and technological skill, might as well outlaw that crap than to have anyone else aware of its annoying presence for any reason whatsoever.

And that goes three times for Andrew Lloyd Webber!

 

[Sal1950]

It's alrite, we understand---vinyl talked trash about yer momma, what else could you do?

LOL,, That the best you got Robin?
I heard that one in the second grade.

 

[Robin L]

LOL,, That the best you got Robin?
I heard that one in the second grade.

I heard that one in third grade in South Central.

 

[MattHooper]

So it doesn't contain any surface noise, zero rice, no wow and flutter, doesn't sound different from beginning to end (inner groove distortion), doesn't contain any of the other 25 or so vinyl sonic failings that have been listed here over and over?

I was very careful in what I wrote, Sal

I didn't claim that I could play some stuff on vinyl that would be free of any possible vinyl artifact. Just that I could play some sonically impressive stuff for carewser where he would not be hearing record noise, of the type he mentioned "Rice Krispies of analog (snap, crackle and pop)"

This is because the records generally play quite clean and just as important, the music levels would mask any surface noise. E.g. some of the Rush re-masters, or some good Talk Talk tracks, or a really clean playing Bill Bruford track that is super dynamic playing, or any of a great number of options. If you think you could hear, for instance, a fairly low level record surface noise through loud music tracks on an LP, that would be bordering on an extraordinary claim given how our hearing works, dynamic range/masking effects etc.

Tell us all the truth Matt cause I have a pretty good idea,
How much have you invested in your vinyl gear to get sound that "in your opinion is almost as good" as the analog output of a $200 DAC?

Oh, a fair amount as you know. But then, I like playing records so it's worth it for me.

BTW, out of curiosity, how much more did you spend on your DAC or digital source to get sound no better than a $200 DAC? ;-)

(Of course...maybe you do own a $200 DAC...)

 

[Sal1950]

BTW, out of curiosity, how much more did you spend on your DAC or digital source to get sound no better than a $200 DAC? ;-)

I paid $450 for my Emotiva DC-1 DAC about 6 or 7 years ago, it's now been retired for use only as a excellent headphone amp. All my other listening is handled by the internal DAC of my Marantz AV7703 multich preamp.

 

[MattHooper]

I paid $450 for my Emotiva DC-1 DAC about 6 or 7 years ago,

Back when you were crazy with your money

it's now been retired for use only as a excellent headphone amp. All my other listening is handled by the internal DAC of my Marantz AV7703 multich preamp.

Sounds good.

As I've mentioned I use a Benchmark DAC 2L (though second hand, still more than I needed to spend for sound quality, but it had features I wanted as well). Other than that I often listen to music streamed, including from youtube, through my ancient Denon AVR in my home theater system. Can't even remember what old DAC it incorporates but it sounds great to me!

 

[antcollinet]

Because, as we've gone through before, that's just one concept of "Hi-Fi" but more important: I see this forum's main objective as producing "Accurate Knowledge Of Audio Gear" rather than enforcing a more strict "Devotion To A Specific Notion Of Hi-Fi."

In other words, knowing more about how some equipment works, what products do or don't do as they advertise etc, allows people to make advised decisions on reaching their particular goals. For instance, I don't see the remit of this forum to say "Don't Purchase Or Enjoy Old Klipsch Speakers!!" but rather to offer knowledge on what you are getting, vs alternatives, and then you are empowered with accurate information to...follow your own goal.

If we made this place some sort of Audio Hi-Fi Purity Test where only those with the most accurate possible systems were accommodated, this place would be pretty empty. Most systems have compromises here or there in terms of pure accuracy, and who gets to adjudicate which compromises pass the purity test?

I think most in this forum will say of vinyl, fine if you enjoy it, just don't be mislead by b.s. claims about it's superiority, and in a place like this you can learn why some vinyl myths are nonsense. That's the overriding value of a forum like this - a Big Tent approach for educating audio fans of various tastes and goals - not forcing everyone in to the same gear choices or exact goals.

Shame I can only like that once.

WhyTF do people feel the need to impose their own motivations onto others.

 

[antcollinet]

That is exactly where you run off the tracks.
There is only ONE ideal for Hi Fi, that's High Fidelity To The Source.
Anything else is pursuing a path to a subjective preference.
That,s what Mikey teaches at Stereophile.

Couldn't disagree more. It is 100% about enjoying music to the maximum. I literally don't give a shit how people achieve that - as long as they don't mislead others about the merits of different approaches.

 

[antcollinet]

I think these types of "desire-jerkers" have a far bigger influence when it comes to new consumers and driving the sales than one individuals' unique experience (notice the Beatles and Amy Winehouse):
View attachment 198000

The sheer amount of these "fuller life promises" that pop up on the FB is outright silly:
View attachment 198001

I don't want to overload the thread, but the number of girls sitting on floors with turntables pics... I could post 10 just from this morning's feed.

Literally never seen one photo along those lines on FB

But if I did I'd agree they are BS.

 

[Robin L]

Literally never seen one photo along those lines on FB

But if I did I'd agree they are BS.

Wouldn't want my turntable that close to speakers.

 

[carewser]

Well, vinyl "renaissance" started like 15 years ago. At this point it would be more accurate to talk about vinyl brief disappearance.

Vinyl's peak was 1979 when there were over a billion records sold that year but the medium's absence is far from brief according to this mini-documentary, it spans 20 years, from 1987-2007 so vinyl finally started it's recovery in 2007 and has been going strong ever since although LP sales in 2007 were a tiny fraction of what they were in 1979: :

Matt, you must be a canuck like me because I don't expect many Americans have even heard of Max Webster. In 1987 I was 20 and had never even heard of Max Webster but a buddy of mine who had just moved here to Victoria from Edmonton told me about them and was stunned that I had never heard of them. To this day I've never gotten into Max Webster but after Kim Mitchell went solo he did a couple of songs i liked and no, "Patio Lanterns" wasn't one of them

 

[Anthony101]

 

[Sal1950]

Back when you were crazy with your money

Yep, but it's much more than just a DAC, actually a remote controlled preamp and headphone amp.
I sent it to Amir some years back to be measured, it did fairly well.

Measurement and Review of Emotiva DC-1 DAC

This is a detailed measurements and review of Emotiva DC-1 DAC. It is kindly loaned to me by member Sal1950. It retails for $499 including shipping from Emotiva direct. The features and size is very close to my recently reviewed Topping DX7 DAC. As you see in above picture it has extensive...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[MattHooper]

Matt, you must be a canuck like me because I don't expect many Americans have even heard of Max Webster. In 1987 I was 20 and had never even heard of Max Webster but a buddy of mine who had just moved here to Victoria from Edmonton told me about them and was stunned that I had never heard of them. To this day I've never gotten into Max Webster but after Kim Mitchell went solo he did a couple of songs i liked and no, "Patio Lanterns" wasn't one of them

Yup, filthy Canuck here.

If you ever attempt to get in to Max Webster, and like a bit of Kim Mitchell to start with, I'd suggest listening to Max Webster's Universal Juveniles (probably the most Kim Mitchell solo-like album and their final), and then work backwards in time. Sort of like working back from Phil Collins albums towards older Genesis

On Rush, I only go up to Signals, after which they lost me.

 

[paddycrow]

Yup, filthy Canuck here.

If you ever attempt to get in to Max Webster, and like a bit of Kim Mitchell to start with, I'd suggest listening to Max Webster's Universal Juveniles (probably the most Kim Mitchell solo-like album and their final), and then work backwards in time. Sort of like working back from Phil Collins albums towards older Genesis

On Rush, I only go up to Signals, after which they lost me.

Genesis lost me not long after Peter Gabriel left.

 

[billyjoebob]

Vinyl's peak was 1979 when there were over a billion records sold that year but the medium's absence is far from brief according to this mini-documentary, it spans 20 years, from 1987-2007 so vinyl finally started it's recovery in 2007 and has been going strong ever since although LP sales in 2007 were a tiny fraction of what they were in 1979: :

This has absolutely NO bearing with modern day.
Tell me what vinyl was competing with in 1979? Cassettes?
The fact that (in some peoples words) an obsolete and archaic medium has ANY success when compared to its (admittedly) superior counterpart in digital, is an outright phenomenon.
Top this off that there are audiophiles still talking of its continued merits, and it is a borderline miracle!