Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[killdozzer]

@killdozzer , I appreciate your thoughts to my post on the appeal of turntables and vinyl. I think most pertinent reasons were eventually discussed in that long thread. However, the consensus was that unless you already have a lot of records, or it also holds some other appeal to you already, there was no reason to invest in it. I don't, so none of the arguments swayed me. I am very happy with my all digital streaming system and have invested in new speakers, DSP, and room treatment instead, with great results.

You all are welcome to continue to drag a rock across plastic for your music enjoyment if you like, I'll stick with running everything off Roon on my iPad from my couch. Cheers

I'm afraid you missed my point, but thank you for the answer. I'm really not a "drag a rock across plastic for pleasure" kinda of a guy. My choice is NAS. I have TBs of music on a NAS and when I play some music I look for info/lyrics/cover art on my lap top and this is IMO even better than settling for worse sound only to hold some paper sleeve in your hand.

I was talking about the ingenious solution. About a person who envisioned in his head that if sound has it's physical form, you can make something that is almost like a mold for sound. You let the wave impact the lathe in order to produce grooves so that when you turn the process around and use those grooves as guides for something that will vibrate among magnets, what you get back resembles the original waves. It's very creative and smart (even more so when you think what was at hand).

I didn't know your thread looked for an answer. I understood it simply as a place where people can say what about records specifically they find fascinating.

I don't want to be boring and repeat myself, but my TT is never going anywhere simply because it's a memory of my old man. I play it sometimes. It's cute. It doesn't come anywhere NEAR the thrill and pleasure I can get from a good FLAC or EAC of a CD.

 

[killdozzer]

15 years ago I explained why CDs make you immoral and that goes even more for streaming or download digital. Vinyl is a backlash against rentier economics in music distribution.

I could almost agree with you but I don't because of Kim Dotcom. That was the only true effort of Internet Direct sales in music. And I hope you all remember Special Forces breaking into his home in New Zealand as one of the rare cases of operating on foreign soil while not engaged in war with that country.

The promotion of vinyl started after the trial of The Pirate Bay. The idea was to push this notion that even if you get an album in digital, you don't really have an album. It was when all the stars joined, Paul Young and even Willie Smith claimed that it's either HiRes or records but nothing in between and so on.

It saddens me to see that people always buy into these cheap publicity stunts where ginormous companies hide behind small artists and cry how small artists won't get payed and how the only concerns of multi-gajillion labels is the honest earned pocket money of small bands and artists. And how by destroying Kim Dotcoms life they were fighting against evil and helped you and all the small artists.

Another thing, it is exactly this moral superiority that will take away the most points from your position. After turning citizens into consumers, the idea came about that you vote by shopping. You shop here or you shop there, you buy these products and not those products and this constitutes your identity. Foe me, this is endlessly sad, but that's besides the point. What is on point is that there's no difference. You're a consumer of vinyl and the other guy is a consumer of CDs.

There's a good chance someone will, someday help remove your thrown Steely Dan record from whales lungs. It's just a piece of crap plastic and it even doesn't last as long as a CD.

 

[Multicore]

So, yes I do appreciate the liner notes that come with my LPs, but in the heyday of CDs they were often taken even further.

It's a good point. The very fact that something is reissued in a new medium can yield new information. But it works both ways...

One example came up when I was researching the Naked Lunch Soundtrack episode of Gas Giants (which is the best movie soundtrack ever and anyone who claims otherwise is a fool or philistine). I wanted the names of the guitarists on the Crash soundtrack (another Cronenberg/Howard Shore effort) but this was very hard to find. It wasn't indicated on the original CD release of the soundtrack. But there was a recent deluxe (i.e. overpriced) 2LP on some excessive grammage that listed all six of them, SIX! So in this case the vinyl reissue has something new to offer.

 

[anmpr1]

When the needle hits the lead-in grove it sounds like your grinding imported coffee for the first 5 seconds or so.

Of course the true vinyl cognoscenti has a more nuanced take than your obviously degraded tin ear can ever hope to comprehend. In fact, over at the Analog Solar System site, Mikey Frembot has already taken the time to explain it, in his latest review of 'bargain' phono cartridges:

"Using the ten thousand dollar Fairy XYZ Ultima Thule moving moron cartridge mounted on a five hundred thousand dollar DasTech Ginger Baker's Air Force turntable (with the optional Nuclear Deterrent platter pad), coupled to the matching fifty thousand dollar Vertigo Reference tonearm (with the optional Hitchcock damper installed), lead-in grooves have that unmistakable Robusta grind quality. That is, smaller in sound stage, a little more acidic in the highs, with a generally darker overall color."

"Substituting the twenty thousand dollar Sister Hannah Umamuma Mamumi Purple Passion cartridge (featuring their proprietary Urushi-Sushi lacquering baked over a synergistically CNBC machined Duraluma-Numinium body), lead in grooves had a definite Arabica grinding quality, with an intense multi-layered and full-bodied presentation, with just a touch of needed sweetness to tone down any objectionable bitterness."

Really, you anti-analog digit-heads need to wake up and smell the coffee!

 

[killdozzer]

With 100% respect, I don't get the statement (which I have seen in this thread again) that classical music somehow *must* be reproduced with far more accuracy than any other music. I should note I am a total classical and jazz music fan, and my setup is geared to deliver them accurately (no vinyl, no tube amp, very well measuring speakers).

That said, it is *exactly* with classical, especially piano and strings, that I can go to a very close friend's place and immensely enjoy listening stuff through a tube amp and Devore speakers (which I doubt live up to any strict measuring routines). It sounds awesome. I love my system. But there's something else going on when I listen to Chopin or Debussy over there. It taps into something else. Then again, play some Stanley Clarke jazz and I'll beg my friend to bring up Pachelbel or something, anything else.

I do get that with vinyl you get the medium that -for some chosen music- dictates a different delivery through your chain, even when it's a revealing and "exact" system behind the vinyl. And with other stuff you can consume digital to full effect - bring on the bass in Drake's latest or whatever, full on. Oddly enough I don't see that argument made by vinyl enthusiasts. It's all or nothing as a rule.

It depends whether you want to get it. Often people say "I don't get", but what they really mean is "I don't want to get". I'm not saying it's you, I don't know you, but still, whether you get it will depend on that.

Think of a philharmonic orchestra. Think of all the instruments, all the vibrating, all the timbre. Now think what is truly there at stylus disposal to recreate all those instruments. It's wagging left to right. Now think of all the crescendos of some pieces.

See what I'm getting at? It makes the stylus slap the sides of those grooves worse than Will Smith and in no way will it convey all and let's be honest all was never even cut into it by the virtue of lathe and cutting process.

 

[killdozzer]

Of course the true vinyl cognoscenti has a more nuanced take than your obviously degraded tin ear can ever hope to comprehend. In fact, over at the Analog Solar System site, Mikey Frembot has already taken the time to explain it, in his latest review of 'bargain' phono cartridges:

"Using the ten thousand dollar Fairy XYZ Ultima Thule moving moron cartridge mounted on a five hundred thousand dollar DasTech Ginger Baker's Air Force turntable (with the optional Nuclear Deterrent platter pad), coupled to the matching fifty thousand dollar Vertigo Reference tonearm (with the optional Hitchcock damper installed), lead-in grooves have that unmistakable Robusta grind quality. That is, smaller in sound stage, a little more acidic in the highs, with a generally darker overall color."

"Substituting the twenty thousand dollar Sister Hannah Umamuma Mamumi Purple Passion cartridge (featuring their proprietary Urushi-Sushi lacquering baked over a synergistically CNBC machined Duraluma-Numinium body), lead in grooves had a definite Arabica grinding quality, with an intense multi-layered and full-bodied presentation, with just a touch of needed sweetness to tone down any objectionable bitterness."

Really, you anti-analog digit-heads need to wake up and smell the coffee!

 

[MattHooper]

What is this, about the 20th thread that's gone on for 500 posts saying the same shitte over and over.
If I was a mod here, I'd lock every one of them and delete any new ones getting started.
Hint hint @amirm and the rest.

I’ve never understood the mindset:

“I’m not interested in X therefore I’d like to stop anyone else from discussing X.”

Nobody is forcing anyone Clockwork-Orange-Like to click on and read threads they aren’t interested in. I don’t give a damn about SINAD but I don’t for a second have the inclination to shut down the many long discussions on the subject.

I get that there is significant repetition in a long thread like this, but that’s the nature of enthusiast forums. And within long threads there will still be some people voicing their view for the first time, or newbies reading other peoples view for the first time, and still thoughtful contributions from regulars taking various angles on the subject. I’m still seeing interesting posts.

Again, I’m not interested in SINAD or yet another DAC discussion but have no urge to stop others discussing it like “Why do other people have to be interested in things I Don’t Like?!!”

*(Though if I were of a draconian mindset the first things I’d ban in audio forums are mentions of watches and Harleys )

 

[SIY]

If you’re not listening to 8 tracks, you’re a poseur.

 

[Ken1951]

If you’re not listening to 8 tracks, you’re a poseur.

Brings back memories of riding around campus and town in a friend's 64 Galaxie with a 427 while listening to Jimi's Electric Ladyland. Big time in 1969!

 

[MattHooper]

Often people say "I don't get", but what they really mean is "I don't want to get".

Exactly!

(Also reminds me of the subjectivist woo-woo response "Science doesn't know about X" which usually means "I'm ignorant about the science for X.")

Think of a philharmonic orchestra. Think of all the instruments, all the vibrating, all the timbre. Now think what is truly there at stylus disposal to recreate all those instruments. It's wagging left to right. Now think of all the crescendos of some pieces.

See what I'm getting at? It makes the stylus slap the sides of those grooves worse than Will Smith and in no way will it convey all and let's be honest all was never even cut into it by the virtue of lathe and cutting process.

I think that's a good illustration of what I was talking about earlier: the gulf between theory and practice, and exaggerated implications for practice.

From the description above of the process one could easily infer vinyl would be incapable of sounding excellent with orchestral music. And yet...it can sound fantastic. My soundtrack LP collection, like my digital collection, is chock full of orchestras playing muscular crescendos and tutti passages, and they sound stellar. I have LPs of Holst's The Planets that sound as sonically thrilling as any of my CDs.

That's not to say that there would be no difference to find between that of the CD versions vs LPs in handling the dynamics and sonic information of an orchestra, especially if you zoomed in and examined technically. But getting back to the actual perceptual magnitude of the differences, I find this can be exaggerated when emphasizing the technical limitations of vinyl.

If vinyl could not reproduce orchestral music or other dynamic, dense music with thrilling sonic quality I simply would not be playing vinyl records. There's no way I'd give up that much sound quality just to hold some big piece of artwork in my hand or whatever.

(Not to mention that even if we are talking about digital, one could say that there was "no way" for the microphones to capture and convey all the information about the orchestra's sound in the first place...and then add in deficiencies of stereo, etc).

 

[Robin L]

(Not to mention that even if we are talking about digital, one could say that there was "no way" for the microphones to capture and convey all the information about the orchestra's sound in the first place...and then add in deficiencies of stereo, etc).

And if one has hands on [ears on?] experience with various microphones, one realizes how much of an impact on the sound and sound quality individual microphones have. Sometimes the wrong mic in the right place is more right than the right mic in the wrong place.

Another thought experiment: consider all the possible seating locations in a typical hall, something like Davis Hall in San Francisco. I've been in the front row, in front of the cellos, another time about ten rows or so back, in front of the tymps [MTT/Rite of Spring, just before he landed the post] and one time in the front of the balcony. All very different in sound quality, the balcony seat being vague and diffuse, the front row seat having the kind of impact one would expect from a recording.

I used to collect golden age classical LPs. Even though it was obvious to my ears that there were clicks 'n' pops and other groove noises coming off my Blue-Back Londons [a lot of the Stereo Treasury series was pressed off the same stampers], RCA "Shaded Dogs", Mercury Living Presence and so on, they were all fun to listen to, at least when the stern deities of the vinyl realm favored me. Assuming the pressing is perfectly centered [not a given], and the disc being in good condition [classical records have a very high probability of being played only once] there would be a sense of the sound being more "grabby" and direct. This could be due to various distortions, but it was a difference, one that I favored for a long time .

The experience of hearing an orchestra "live" might have the perspectives and clarity of a good recording, but the perspective offered via recording is going to have better balances than 90% of the seats in a performance venue. And a lot of relatively simply mic-ed orchestral recordings from the early days of stereo had the right microphones in the right places. The net result overcomes the limitations of analog tape and vinyl surfaces. When it's good, it can be better than being in the hall. While rustling/shuffling/coughing in a concert performance screws up the s/n ratio in much the same way as clicks 'n' pops, it signals inattention to these ears, being a bit more irritating than low-level clicks 'n' pops.

An uncompressed digital recording of an orchestra is going to be a bit more diffuse than its 60 year old analog counterpart. And some will favor that 60 year old sound over modern recordings thanks to gain riding and an enriched sense of hall ambience. It's not the same as "real" but it's a pleasant sound anyway. I wouldn't go back to LPs for reasons already cited, but I can understand why some would favor the sonic differences [in practice] of LP reproduction.

 

[Sal1950]

“I’m not interested in X therefore I’d like to stop anyone else from discussing X.”

It's just an enormous waste of server space but not my call in any case.

I don’t give a damn about SINAD

Again, I’m not interested in SINAD or yet another DAC discussion

I know, we been down this road before. I still wonder why you would hang out on a science based audio site when you have no interest in the science side of audio? That's what we do here, most of the base members came here to get away from the constant subjectivist babel at other places. We look to discuss ways to improve audio's State Of The Art thru measurements of the gear and looking for it's weaknesses. From that viewpoint vinyl hasn't been relevant for close to 50 years now. Why not hang at Mikey Fremers Audio Planet where they talk about how purdy vinyl sounds ad infinitum?
I really like you and don't wish to insult you in any way, but I just don't understand you?

 

[killdozzer]

And if one has hands on [ears on?] experience with various microphones, one realizes how much of an impact on the sound and sound quality individual microphones have. Sometimes the wrong mic in the right place is more right than the right mic in the wrong place.

True, but let's not make a mistake and say that one bad link justifies adding another down the chain.

Also I was talking about something else; even 50 bad mics will get noticeably reduced when reproduced by one stylus and not when reproduced by one laser.

Anyway, I only wrote that bc someone asked. I don't think it has anything to do with records revival. I have a feeling this discussion is like running with hurdles, you have to jump over all the I, I, I, me, me, me, special, special, special guys claiming that if they explained themselves, the whole world is explained.

 

[Robin L]

I know, we been down this road before. I still wonder why you would hang out on a science based audio site when you have no interest in the science side of audio?

It's clear from his profession that Matt has to know some of the science. And when he posts, he always acknowledges the known limitations of vinyl replay. He made a decision that you wouldn't make, he acknowledges LPs aren't for everybody.

I think thou doth protest too much.

 

[Sal1950]

He made a decision that you wouldn't make,

What decision is that ?

 

[Robin L]

What decision is that ?

To continue to use a turntable and LPs. The issue isn't "why did people quit playing LPs?". Plenty of people here, probably the majority, have made the decision to not play LPs, have turntables, etc. Matt is in the minority, knows it, but gives his reasons why he is still a vinyl enthusiast. So his responses address the OP. Bitching about LPs does not.

 

[Sal1950]

To continue to use a turntable and LPs.

I made my decision and SOLD all my (LP) vinyl gear.

 

[carewser]

With CD, transitions were intact. The first time I encountered that I automatically wanted to get up and flip the side. It was an unexpected shock not to have to do it, actually. A funny experience I remember to this day.

That's another benefit of CD's, they can play up to 90 minutes of music without interruption and with the repeat function on they play the disc endlessly, pressing autoplay on youtube keeps playing an endless and mixed array of videos, my only complaint with youtube is the varying dynamics of the sound between videos, some are louder by orders of magnitude than others so I wish they could somehow equalize the volume

 

[Robin L]

I made my decision and SOLD all my (LP) vinyl gear.

Right, so your decision doesn't come into play to explain why there's a revival of interest in LPs. Your decision explains why LPs faded out for a while. But that's not the issue, we all know the reasons why CD were the king for a while. The question is "why, after all that, did LPs come back?"

 

[Robin L]

That's another benefit of CD's, they can play up to 90 minutes of music without interruption and with the repeat function on they play the disc endlessly, pressing autoplay on youtube keeps playing an endless and mixed array of videos, my only complaint with youtube is the varying dynamics of the sound between videos, some are louder by orders of magnitude than others and I wish they could somehow equalize the volume

CDs would hold up to 74 minutes officially [80 if you're willing to risk a higher failure rate]. I've had SACDs that ran for more than 80 minutes, but don't recall any 90 minute CDs.