Blind test: we have a volunteer!!!

[GoldenOne]

Amir's suggestion to investigate your own claims using the Magnius and another amp before you go public and do the test by testing properly level matched and 'blind' comparisons you will find out that, which you stated, cannot be shown to exist (be true) in tests where the playing field is level.

I have done this. And in fact I have a housemate assist me with doing level matched blind tests quite often. It's useful to separate placebo from true difference and yes there have been plenty of times where something has turned out to be placebo. But also plenty of times when a difference was confirmed.

Hence I'm quite happy to go forward with the test on video.
Im just not sure what Amir is wanting in terms of evidence for a very specific subjective characteristic

 

[odyo]

We are not talking about subtle differences here. Our blogger thinks there are large degradations with Schiit Magnius. If they are so small as to fade away in ADC cycle, then he would need to revisit his position.

I think he can't prove the large degradations but if he can distinguish the two amp he may have a point.

 

[solderdude]

I have done this

The question is also in this case ?
How strict was that blind testing ?
How was it performed ?
Did you base your conclusions on a rigorous test or your gut feeling ?

When making a proper blind test using a Susvara you, and others that get the opportunity to receive the actual signal fed to your headphone and analyze it, can distinguish between the amps and 'synchronize' their sound description vocabulary then some more measuring might be needed.

 

[Blaspheme]

I have done this. And in fact I have a housemate assist me with doing level matched blind tests quite often. It's useful to separate placebo from true difference and yes there have been plenty of times where something has turned out to be placebo. But also plenty of times when a difference was confirmed.

Hence I'm quite happy to go forward with the test on video.
Im just not sure what Amir is wanting in terms of evidence for a very specific subjective characteristic

It's an interesting question. The protocols suggested (up until recently anyway) support demonstrating that you hear a difference (or not). You can certainly explicitly listen for one or more of the characteristics you described as hearing during open trial, but those same blind test protocols by themselves don't provide proof of that.

 

[JSmith]

tests with music

Not to mention the multitone test;

Neither is appreciated and points to some kind of animosity toward us/me.

Agree... it's getting a bit much. I'm wondering if this whole MQA fiasco was designed to attack ASR and you... let him digest that conspiracy.



JSmith

 

[BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp]

Agree... it's getting a bit much. I'm wondering if this whole MQA fiasco was designed to attack ASR and you... let him digest that conspiracy.

I'm assuming that's a joke, but in case it isn't - I think that's extremely far-fetched at best.

Speaking of the multitone test, though, wouldn't that one also show IMD very clearly?

 

[JSmith]

I'm assuming that's a joke

It's as much of a joke as the conspiracies waged against Amir... same standard right, claims without proof?

Anyone can make events fit into a conspiracy... then post about them on other forums thinking no one will see same.



JSmith

 

[Blaspheme]

... Speaking of the multitone test, though, wouldn't that one also show IMD very clearly?

Generally, but I recall it has some limitation. A member demonstrated following one of the reviews, unfortunately I was new to the forum then and the name didn't stick (nor do I recall the reviewed item). Maybe someone can remember?

 

[BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp]

It's as much of a joke as the conspiracies waged against Amir... same standard right, claims without proof?

Anyone can make events fit into a conspiracy... then post about them on other forums thinking no one will see same.



JSmith

Yeah, I was also extremely not keen on those SBAF posts... not cool. I do think it might be better not to bring all that into this thread, though, if only to keep it focused on the ABX testing.

 

[BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp]

Generally, but I recall it has some limitation. A member demonstrated following one of the reviews, unfortunately I was new to the forum then and the name didn't stick (nor do I recall the reviewed item). Maybe someone can remember?

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/multi-tone-audio-testing.12865/#post-382624

This thread/post perhaps? Seems that the issue is that the many simultaneous tones require each tone's level to be lowered, making the test less stressful.

 

[Blaspheme]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/multi-tone-audio-testing.12865/#post-382624

This thread/comment perhaps? Seems that the issue is that the many simultaneous tones require each tone's level to be lowered, making the test less stressful.

That is interesting. The example I was remembering was a comment following a hardware review—the example was specific, not so much to the gear but to an issue where the multi-tone IMD didn't tell you what you wanted to know. It wasn't the level issue iirc, something else. It may be covered in the thread you linked as well, I'll check it out, thanks.

 

[amirm]

Speaking of the multitone test, though, wouldn't that one also show IMD very clearly?

Most definitely. Wonder why our blogger thought it did not.

 

[amirm]

Im just not sure what Amir is wanting in terms of evidence for a very specific subjective characteristic

Let me ask you this: do you think you would be the only one that heard the issues with Magnius or that majority of people can?

 

[Chocomel]

I'm not really sure anymore what Golden is supposed to do now? The blind test that was discussed before seemed suitable for the challenge, i.e. prove any of his observations. Him being able to tell a difference in a blind and controlled test would proof some of his observations, like there being a audible difference to begin with. But it seems like Amir does not want to do this test anymore due to validity/practical concerns?

While the suggested test for the users here could be fun to do it i don't think it really resolves the challenge.

"Indeed, I will donate $1000 to Goldeneye's favorite charity if he can prove any of those observations if he can do so blind and in controlled testing."

Overall i don't really get this sudden departure, i thought things were moving along nicely, i can understand the practical concerns but changing things up because of what's said in the video would be disappointing.

I hope Amir and GoldenOne can keep discussing how to do a test which is feasible and they are both confident in.

 

[VintageFlanker]

 

[amirm]

I'm not really sure anymore what Golden is supposed to do now? The blind test that was discussed before seemed suitable for the challenge, i.e. prove any of his observations. Him being able to tell a difference in a blind and controlled test would proof some of his observations, like there being a difference to begin with. But it seems like Amir does not want to do this test anymore due to validity/practical concerns?

Correct. We never converged on how to do the AB testing physically. The number of ways there could be a "tell" was quite large and if the goal is reduced to just differentiate between two items, the job would be done. That wasn't the spirit or intent of my challenge.

Do you think his proposed testing protocol backs all that was said in that video? How would you take the leap from telling two amps apart for any reason to backing all the subjective commentary in there?

I have passed some incredibly difficult double blind tests. The difference in all those cases was extremely small. So me passing them doesn't mean all the things people say about those two samples are correct.

 

[Blaspheme]

Correct. We never converged on how to do the AB testing physically. The number of ways there could be a "tell" was quite large and if the goal is reduced to just differentiate between two items, the job would be done. That wasn't the spirit or intent of my challenge.

Do you think his proposed testing protocol backs all that was said in that video? How would you take the leap from telling two amps apart for any reason to backing all the subjective commentary in there?

I have passed some incredibly difficult double blind tests. The difference in all those cases was extremely small. So me passing them doesn't mean all the things people say about those two samples are correct.

As noted above, your challenge was to prove "any" not "all".

 

[amirm]

As noted above, your challenge was to prove "any" not "all".

Sure, which ones you want to pic? Here is my original post in the other thread:

"the dynamic range feels quite compressed...it doesn't come across in measurements"

"... this is a fatiguing amp to me..."

"there is slight graininess and lack of separation...."

"there is not a lot of texture [in bass]..."

"timbre is not great in this amp..."

"mid texture and detail is not good..."

The "I can tell there is slightest difference between the two" which is what he wants to show now was not part of the equation.

 

[Blaspheme]

Sure, which ones you want to pic? [sic] ...

None of my business. That is up to GO to decide.

I am curious of course, if both amps are transparent according to the measurements, how does the slightest difference exist?

In any case, the relevant text is your challenge, and the claims in the video, not simply the post you linked above. I'm interested to see the test, but I didn't make the claims or issue the challenge. You two have to work that out.

 

[amirm]

That is up to OG to decide.

He has decided to not do any of them.