"Bias" of some members towards headphone measurements?

[thewas]

The desire to disprove/dismiss any utility of subjective listening impressions, even when quantified and analyzed scientifically by Harman, is strong.

Can you give some concrete examples of such? I only remember such happening to typical non blinded, not level matched, not bass room corrected (for loudspeakers, not to talk about position matched) and often even single, i.e. without a direct comparison or reference) anecdotal listening experiences.

 

[Verig]

Theres a part of audio knowledge where objective metrics have less explaining power, but other equally grounded concepts do like psychoacoustics, frequency masking, program dependence, equal loudness contours. Those eager to be argumentative and take on role of a myth buster are just showing the gaps in their knowledge.

All these need the objective metrics to stand on and all these are discussed here. It's not like there aren't knowledgeable and open minded people participating. ASR is a large forum.

Going into semantics I tend to place frequency masking and equal loudness contours into the objective bin. Derived from experiences but used as statistical tools so there is no match for any individual. I find it hard to place these on the subjective side as such. But they very much belong into a discussion of preference, they are findings that help bridge cold technical and "I just like this".

They fill the gaps otherwise filled with audio myths "I like this because my speaker cables are great". People always want to fill the blanks with something and if the technical people are not able to communicate clearly (and politely) there will be some interesting theories.

I find it beneficial to keep ASR standard measurements as basis but certainly welcome more well founded explanations about experiences to go along.

 

[Jim Taylor]

Science dies when we decide we already know the answer.

For instances where answers are not known, this is true. However, for instances where the answer is known, it is not.

Science knows how to communicate with GPS satellites orbiting Earth. That is proven, and that answer is already known. I reject any notion that subjectivity has any bearing on that issue.

Science knows the basic parameters necessary for continued support of human life. Those are proven, and the answers are already known. I reject any notion that subjectivity has any bearing on those issues.

Science knows the characteristics of adhesives between various materials. Those are proven, and the answers are already known. I reject any notion that subjectivity has any bearing on those issues.

But audio ...? OMG, AUDIO IS A VAST UNKNOWN SWAMP IN REGARDS TO SCIENCE, AND WE ABSOLUTELY MUST DEPEND ON SUBJECTIVITY BECAUSE SCIENCE DOESN'T KNOW A DAMN THING ABOUT AUDIO!!!!!!!!!!! VOODOO RULES!!!!!!!!

Never mind that the audio recording industry has, for decades, been using electronics that were created using science. Welp, I guess that science has died.

Science is about having an open mind,

This is true. But no need to have a mind so open that your brains fall out. Do you have an open mind whether your thumb will hurt if you hit it with a hammer? Do you have an open mind what happens when you mix chlorine bleach and ammonia?

Some things are known, and you trust them to be true every day of your life. The least you can do is be consistent ... if about those things, then audio as well.

 

[markanini]

All these need the objective metrics to stand on and all these are discussed here. It's not like there aren't knowledgeable and open minded people participating. ASR is a large forum.

Going into semantics I tend to place frequency masking and equal loudness contours into the objective bin. Derived from experiences but used as statistical tools so there is no match for any individual. I find it hard to place these on the subjective side as such. But they very much belong into a discussion of preference, they are findings that help bridge cold technical and "I just like this".

They fill the gaps otherwise filled with audio myths "I like this because my speaker cables are great". People always want to fill the blanks with something and if the technical people are not able to communicate clearly (and politely) there will be some interesting theories.

I find it beneficial to keep ASR standard measurements as basis but certainly welcome more well founded explanations about experiences to go along.

I'm aware of the rationalizations of people without objective knowledge. I'm saying that a place like ASR should be better than that and not use objective metrics to obfuscate context. For instance Sean Olive found segmentation in bass level preference. What does telling someone their IEM is deficient for producing 2dB less bass than the established target do? If you only know a singular metric you might tell someone that confidently. But someone like Amir or Sean Olive never talk like that for a reason, and they are more knowledgeable than most of us.

 

[preload]

For instances where answers are not known, this is true. However, for instances where the answer is known, it is not.

Science knows how to communicate with GPS satellites orbiting Earth. That is proven, and that answer is already known. I reject any notion that subjectivity has any bearing on that issue.

Science knows the basic parameters necessary for continued support of human life. Those are proven, and the answers are already known. I reject any notion that subjectivity has any bearing on those issues.

Science knows the characteristics of adhesives between various materials. Those are proven, and the answers are already known. I reject any notion that subjectivity has any bearing on those issues.

But audio ...? OMG, AUDIO IS A VAST UNKNOWN SWAMP IN REGARDS TO SCIENCE, AND WE ABSOLUTELY MUST DEPEND ON SUBJECTIVITY BECAUSE SCIENCE DOESN'T KNOW A DAMN THING ABOUT AUDIO!!!!!!!!!!! VOODOO RULES!!!!!!!!

Never mind that the audio recording industry has, for decades, been using electronics that were created using science. Welp, I guess that science has died.



This is true. But no need to have a mind so open that your brains fall out. Do you have an open mind whether your thumb will hurt if you hit it with a hammer? Do you have an open mind what happens when you mix chlorine bleach and ammonia?

Some things are known, and you trust them to be true every day of your life. The least you can do is be consistent ... if about those things, then audio as well.

The irony of your response has not been lost on me

 

[preload]

I'm aware of the rationalizations of people without objective knowledge. I'm saying that a place like ASR should be better than that and not use objective metrics to obfuscate context. For instance Sean Olive found segmentation in bass level preference. What does telling someone their IEM is deficient for producing 2dB less bass than the established target do? If you only know a singular metric you might tell someone that confidently. But someone like Amir or Sean Olive never talk like that for a reason, and they are more knowledgeable than most of us.

This. 100%.

 

[Verig]

This. 100%.

Very good. What would be the practical proposal?

I don't see this issue being about lack of knowledge. We have everything we need between the members and the skill to make what we lack.
This is more a cultural and mindset thing.
There are instructions how to interpret measurements. Should there be more clear set of instructions how to listen? A subjective standard of sorts to guide conversations so that preferences would not clash with objective?
Or an analysis, for example, how a resonance like the one this headphone has is usually perceived and why? An extended review with more descriptive words?
All these things come up here all the time but usually inside long threads which not so active members don't read. An extended review would reach most people, even passers by. As time goes by this would shape even the shortest conversations and comments away from single metrics and non-technical people would feel better participating?

How to make a change and what kind of model do you want?

 

[kemmler3D]

the possibility that measured parameters are not as predictive of speaker/HP sound quality as many would like to believe.

I'm still not 100% clear on exactly what hypothesis I'm failing to consider, though.

What parameters or testing protocols do we expect to predict sound quality better?

If there's a better way I'm all for it... My points so far have just been to explain my perception that the current approach seems pretty good. I personally don't see obvious problems. But I don't think a better approach is impossible.

 

[krabapple]

I think he just wants us to tack "YMMV" onto every recommendation for speakers or headphones.

And thus does the mightily laboring mountain bring forth a mouse.

 

[pablolie]

These discussions always go astray when people try to force others to accept certain performance standards as universally valid, as in "if you don't prefer a neutral frequency response as the best, you are an ignorant subjectivist".

I like to see measurements, but I read between the lines. And not often, but regularly disagree with the "conclusions" after the measurements. Because they show personal bias regularly. Any amp that doesn't pump out over 150W, or any speaker that doesn't reach down to 28Hz without much distortion at over 100dB will have a hard time getting ASR love. I for one know that doesn't apply to my listening needs. Plus I know how to pick and set up a subwoofer that overcomes such limitations when relevant.

Measurements reveal whether something is designed to meet certain design goals. They don't have to be universally valid. Nor is any hobby ever just ruled by just measurable concerns. By default, any hobby has a subjective and irrational element to it.

I repeat I like to see measurements. But I don't necessarily need others' personal opinions on what those measurements mean.

"It doesn't have enough power"... let me decide if I need my equipment to reach deafening levels. "It lacks bass!"... let me decide if I feel I can easily add a sub or want to attract a Blue Whale into my living room... etc etc

 

[krabapple]

The profound way including a subwoofer changes the power calculus for choosing an amp/AVR is really under-appreciated.

 

[pablolie]

The profound way including a subwoofer changes the power calculus for choosing an amp/AVR is really under-appreciated.

Indeed. And knowing how complicated room integration of bass is, I am proud of my restraint in never asking people with 400W amps and full range speakers why they don't think dialing in room correction doesn't mean they are prolly not truly using 70% of their financial investment into their system as they inevitably tame their full range speakers' output and integrate subs (and probably no longer use 90% of their amps power as they do so). Again, amazing measurements of any device may be quite irrelevant in the real world. A Bugatti Veyron's amazing top speed and acceleration figures may not translate into significant time gains when commuting to work etc...

 

[preload]

Very good. What would be the practical proposal?

I don't have one. At the end of the day, this is an open internet forum. People are free to believe what they want. Not everyone is interested or open to facts that are not aligned with their current beliefs. It's the human condition.

 

[Verig]

I don't have one. At the end of the day, this is an open internet forum. People are free to believe what they want. Not everyone is interested or open to facts that are not aligned with their current beliefs. It's the human condition.

Open to visit but this is not really an anarchy. Of course you can shape it.

 

[Jim Taylor]

I don't have one. At the end of the day, this is an open internet forum.

It's not really as open as you imply. Although it's true that people from all walks of life and all areas on the Earth can register here and participate, there are limits. ASR is a favorite target of trolls, obtuse people with stupid agendas that waste Amir's bandwidth and our time and energy, and posters who are out to provoke and antagonize any way they can.
So this may be an "open" forum, but as I said, there are limits.

 

[krabapple]

I don't have one. At the end of the day, this is an open internet forum. People are free to believe what they want. Not everyone is interested or open to facts that are not aligned with their current beliefs. It's the human condition.

It's a moderated internet forum.

 

[DonDish]

ASR is a favorite target of trolls, obtuse people with stupid agendas that waste Amir's bandwidth and our time and energy, and posters who are out to provoke and antagonize any way they can.

Sounds like the beginning of the end. Are you gonna take of in a flying saucer now?

I can tell you for sure that audiophiles have been searching for endgames since before the concept of audiophilia was even established. Wheter its transistors vs tubes or subjectivity vs measurements, analog vs digital and they all claim the holy grail. If popular Audio Science Review cant be challenged, and those challenges cant be met with respect. Maybe ASR should be a closed fora.? IMHO there can be an unsound cultish aura around people and "established" facts here at ASR. There some are right and glorified, while some are wrong and expelled. No wonder some people draw agression and get a rise out of people when they claim to hold ´truth´ in their hands.

 

[markanini]

If I had an agenda, it would be for people to be mindful. About ear mounted transducers being acoustically interactive with their coupling interface-ears of varying shapes and sizes. So, treat measurements with a pinch of salt, at the very least least in the treble range. Others impression will vary from yours, and from your interpretation of the graphed response.

 

[NTK]

... If popular Audio Science Review cant be challenged, and those challenges cant be met with respect. Maybe ASR should be a closed fora.? ...

Challenged? How many of these "challenges" can't be summarily dealt with by Hitchens razor?

 

[beagleman]

It's not really as open as you imply. Although it's true that people from all walks of life and all areas on the Earth can register here and participate, there are limits. ASR is a favorite target of trolls, obtuse people with stupid agendas that waste Amir's bandwidth and our time and energy, and posters who are out to provoke and antagonize any way they can.
So this may be an "open" forum, but as I said, there are limits.

I have always found the forum to be a very friendly place to post and visit. The mods are fair, and neutral, and even debates are never name calling tirades or rude.


Can you provide some insight into what posts you are referencing?
Maybe show a few examples please? I mean, that sounds like quite an accusation........