Better speakers than my current genelec 8030c for nearfield

[neg]

My HT mains are Revels,

What revels?

They sound too "small" from a mid to farfield distance, like the entire sound is coming from one tiny spot.

Maybe this correlates with my "no bass" impressions.

 

[spamilton]

What revels?

F226Be. Of course plenty has been said about Revels on this forum. I'll just say I think of them as wide dispersion monitors. Perfect for me.

 

[ddonetskov]

My preferable budget for speakers itself 2-5k$. The cost of amplifiers can not be taken into account in any way I can get it for 0$ sort of.

@neg, I have been deciding between 8330A (they should sound similar to 8030C) and 8341A, so it seems to be close to one of your options. Finally, I went with 8341A, you can read more about it in this post. In short, they are more musical to me.

GLM is a must though I'd say. I understand your working environment is Linux but you can always run the GLM software in a virtual machine. Also, it is not required to keep it up and running all the time if you are not going to control speakers with GLM (which can be quite convenient btw e.g. turning off/on a subwoofer with just a click). For the calibration functionality, the GLM software can be closed after the calibration as calibration settings are saved to speakers and they become "autonomous" in regards to using those settings.

Reading people's opinions, I'd have got 8351B though if I could have put them behind my desk otherwise they look simply too large for standing on a usual desk.

 

[neg]

GLM is a must though I'd say. I understand your working environment is Linux but you can always run the GLM software in a virtual machine. Also, it is not required to keep it up and running all the time if you are not going to control speakers with GLM (which can be quite convenient btw e.g. turning off/on a subwoofer with just a click). For the calibration functionality, the GLM software can be closed after the calibration as calibration settings are saved to speakers and they become "autonomous" in regards to using those settings.

Thank you. Some time ago I find out that genelecs allow you to save all settings internally, so it's totally ok.

Reading people's opinions, I'd have got 8351B though if I could have put them behind my desk otherwise they look simply too large for standing on a usual desk.

I have more than enough space for 8351B. Also there is a plan to put them on racks with vibration decoupling. I'll do it for the current 8030с.
Racks not on the table, but on the floor.

Also I am going to buy some carpets now for basic room treatment. I live in a rented apartment, but ~200-300$ is not a big deal anyway. It is absolutely not necessary to order masterpiece carpets from Iran for this.)) I want to do the rest of the preparation of the room when there are measurements with gml. Maybe next year or six months later I can afford them. In any case, I think it's not worth it to turn the apartment into a room for recording music. I am not audio pro, it's just "ultra-fidelity" speakers for me. A reasonable approach in preparing the room should be enough.

I also checked your mini-review. Thank you for feedback here. I guess that 8341b less bright because of there is a problem with directivity on 2.5kHz with 8030c. It's not terrible, but it's real. Also I guess that adding 7360 sub after 8351b get me significant improvement.

My goal is to get a sound that resembles in quality the sound of good headphones. The speakers are still more convenient to listen to, instead of keeping something on your head all the time. So far, with 8030, this is far from the case, but in the future I think it will be comparable. My experience with dutch and dutch 8c shows that in general, detailed and full sound in speakers is quite achievable​

 

[ddonetskov]

My goal is to get a sound that resembles in quality the sound of good headphones.

With the Ones (8x31) this goal looks achievable. My listening experience with 8341A resembles that one with Sennheiser HD 800 (and Lynx Hilo as DAC), and HD 800 are famous for a very detailed and wide sound stage.

 

[Cbdb2]

Using a tone generator I can hear from 18 Hz on my Genelec 7360A.

You sure your not hearing the distortion, 36hz? Your ears are at least 20db more sensitive at 36hz so at 1% distortion (very possible because your probably at quite a high level to hear those tones) your probably hearing mostly 36hz.

 

[neg]

With the Ones (8x31) this goal looks achievable. My listening experience with 8341A resembles that one with Sennheiser HD 800 (and Lynx Hilo as DAC), and HD 800 are famous for a very detailed and wide sound stage.

Modern isodynamic headphones are more detailed. Worthy examples for my taste are dan clark expanse, dan clark stealth, snorry nm-1, hifiman he-6(old).
For me, too, snorry trion are also kind of extreme in terms of detail, although there may be different opinions. Personally, I didn't like it tonal balance meanwhile.
They require a fairly powerful amplifier. Personally now I use smsl sp400+su9pro.


When I listened to hd800 it seemed to me that they need to increase the bass and decrease ~8.5Khz. In general, I would say that they are pleasant to listen to, but they are not very technical.

For my taste, DC Expanse has better spatial resolution than hd800.


But even in comparison with them all, the overall impression was very good, even if I did not do a / b testing so it's not truly correct.

 

[Trell]

You sure your not hearing the distortion, 36hz? Your ears are at least 20db more sensitive at 36hz so at 1% distortion (very possible because your probably at quite a high level to hear those tones) your probably hearing mostly 36hz.

That’s quite possible as that was a quick and dirty test.

 

[pehu63]

Using a tone generator I can hear from 18 Hz on my Genelec 7360A.

Possibly, you hear the harmonics, and feel the 18hz.

 

[srrxr71]

Subwoofers are not a hard requirement, but they make any system better.

1. Less distortion from the speakers, because the lowest 2 octaves are handled by the sub.

2. More outright bass extension.

3. Less compromise of bass quality due to room modes. In most rooms, moving up to 2 subs is highly beneficial as well.

With a $5K budget I would do a miniDSP Flex (with balanced IO, measurement mic, and Dirac license) for $844, a pair of SVS SB-2000 for $950, KEF R3 for $1500, and your choice of amp. Personally, I would go Hypex NC252MP.

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I assume as a Linux user you don't mind a bit of tweaking, you should be able to get sound quality on par or exceeding the D&D 8C with this setup. Just need to do some measurements to find the best subwoofer locations, then time align + add high-pass to the speakers.

If one is willing to do a little work you’ve pretty much laid it out for us.

 

[srrxr71]

As far as I do not have any DSP right now I do not understand some things. Setup something with windows/mac laptop and use later with saving "dsp profile". But it seems that with genelecs I need GLM always on, it's not seem acceptable.

You do not need GLM always on. You calibrate, save and disconnect if you wish.

 

[Spyart]

I'm not sure what I've missing but dd 8c sounded far more dynamic and detailed. For example I run on it Inade - Disconnected States on it. It sounded more "fresh" with better treble or something and overall listening experience is more pleasurable. Also I liked how precise spatial response is. Moreover I just can run any music on it and it sounds great. For me genelecs sounded nice and relaxed but not very detailed in comparison.

I personally love Inade, but whole Crackling the anonymous Sounds like passed through some colored DAC or something that adds that digital low level noise at high frequencies, imo. So.. Your genelec were probably right! And it probably means that Dutches can color the Sound a bit (at least one mastering engineer told me that opinion, and he ows 8351s). Regarding Inade - Colliding Domensions Sounds way More hifi with a ton of details imo

 

[DMill]

I am listening audio with some headphones, dan clark expanse most of time.

But sometimes this is inconvenient, so I have near-field speakers.

For now I have genelec 8030c. They sound good enough, but there is better options. For example I've listened to Dutch & Dutch 8c. DD are far away better for me with it pin-point location of all sound, better bass, better low-level sounds, more fun, also it supports rew, which support linux, etc. But there is pascal amp in the internals.
I heard that he is not very reliable and at least I do not want to risk it. Its formal parameters are also not the best, but I don't care. For this price tag I consider such risk is not very acceptable.
The question is what are the options to get the better sound. Obviously, for optimal results, I need a subwoofer,
or speakers that give good bass, such as dd. But I feel that dynamic range and low-level signals of my 8030c are
also not so good as in 8c at least and want something better in this sense.
My requirements:
- Near field
- I don't need extreme SPL, not a big fan of it also. If the speakers only play well at high volume, which is often the case, this is not my choice.
- No proprietary DSP things like genelec 83* or way to get reasonable alternative for it. I need support for linux because of it's my desktop.
- Subwoofer is ok, but two subwoofers 9k$ like genelecs are not ok))

Is the KEF R3 good option? Is it feels "fast" enough? I feel 8c fast and fun at for example, but many of another speakers are not, it feels boring for me.
Is the 8331 genelecs with this price a good option in my case? I will pay for dsp that I cannot use after all.
Do I enforced to pay (1-2)x 9k$ to get good subwoofer?

My preferable budget for speakers itself 2-5k$. The cost of amplifiers can not be taken into account in any way I can get it for 0$ sort of.

Wow. I envy your ability to choose among the very best speaker designs. You’d really have to audition the KEF R3s in your space to “know” if the will give you what you want. I’ve heard them… they are great and kind of wish I bought them instead of the ELACs I did purchase. But next week something else will be the best speaker ever. As far as amp costs on a passive vs. an active, that’s really up to you. My guess is you could put a a Buckeye 2 channel amp in the mix for very little $$$ based on your speaker choice and it would completely rock. Subs… I really like them. Two subs… sure if you got the money. I personally find this notion you HAVE to play 2 subs a bit ridiculous unless you have a giant room.

 

[neg]

Wow. I envy your ability to choose among the very best speaker designs. You’d really have to audition the KEF R3s in your space to “know” if the will give you what you want. I’ve heard them…

I already wrote about kefs here. Heard them(Kef R3 Meta) in the showroom. I don't remember very well now. Technically really cool speakers, but
maybe not for me. Highly likely kefs more detailed than my 8030c, this should be checked in the same room and in the same position more carefully. Subjectively, it seemed to me that Kefs seemed to have some ~ 100Hz hump, which is sonically similar to my dan clark expanse headphones in coloration(not a big fan
of it), which makes them sound warmer, perhaps because of this kefs seemed to me more boring and more relaxed. The kef treble is not bad,
but it doesn't bring joy and your attention like genelecs. Some say the top end in genelec "harsh", but anyway I like it. At the same
time, there seems to be less bass in kefs, I don’t know how according to the datasheet. My genelecs are on stands and there is no boom, but
it seems like there is more bass anyway.

I noticed that the bass is a thing that is generally difficult to formalize, it is always different in every single speaker. In addition, it
is highly dependent on the room and speakers placement.

What was good about kef was the mids. But it seems to me that it may be psychoacoustic due to the fact that the brain has nothing to cling
to anymore.

It might sound like I'm saying that kefs are bad. Not at all. Some of the best, worth a listen, just not my cup of tea.

 

[neg]

I personally love Inade, but whole Crackling the anonymous Sounds like passed through some colored DAC or something that adds that digital low level noise at high frequencies, imo. So.. Your genelec were probably right! And it probably means that Dutches can color the Sound a bit (at least one mastering engineer told me that opinion, and he ows 8351s). Regarding Inade - Colliding Domensions Sounds way More hifi with a ton of details imo

I listened to dutch and dutch with my friend again. This time it seemed to both of us that their mids were unpleasant, they almost always seemed to be "brighter" than they should be. This was especially noticeable on the vocals. We listened to Cesaria Evora. I don't know this artist well, but I have listened to this track on other good enough systems. Usually it sounded okay. Not so in dd 8c. Vocals are metallic so to speak. It's very strange to hear it in music like that. In my previous 8030c it sounds nice. Maybe it's some distortion or something. In fact, it seemed to me the first time when I listened to the algorithm it was like there were "too much" metallic plates and sounds "small" in the same time. But then I thought that it should be so. And now it doesn't seem that way. The speaker layout was slightly different, but the showroom was the same.

Now, after listening to more speakers, I would guess that the dutch and dutch sound cleaner due to the good showroom and cardioid directivity. The same good bass can be heard in other speakers if the room is well treated. Including in speakers with a reflex port.

I don't consider my genelecs 8030 top acoustics. This is theoretically impossible, in particular they are not three-way. However, it's funny that they can be better than speakers that are ~10 times more expensive in some aspects.

My humble opinion on dutch and dutch: this is probably the best possible pair of bookshelf speakers unless you assume you have a subwoofer in a well-treated room. DD will show you the imperfections of the mix well if you are using them as a sound engineer. I myself have never worked with sound, but if I put myself in the place of such a person, then I would not be able to determine with them when the sound became pleasant. dd 8c can show when the sound has become clear or powerful, epic. But it would be impossible for me to understand some other things with it.

So in summary, it looks like you're right.

Interestingly, after all the manipulations with my room, rearranging the speakers, the sound became much more detailed. I also upgraded from
an 8030c to an 8330a in preparation for the 8351b upgrade.​

My problem now that I cannot decrease my rt60 in ~67m^3 room.

Since the apartment is rented, I cannot change it significantly. I added absorbers and they won me about 0.1s rt60 and overall it got better, but 0.21s of genelec recomendations remains unattainable​

 

[NiagaraPete]

I am listening audio with some headphones, dan clark expanse most of time.

But sometimes this is inconvenient, so I have near-field speakers.

For now I have genelec 8030c. They sound good enough, but there is better options. For example I've listened to Dutch & Dutch 8c. DD are far away better for me with it pin-point location of all sound, better bass, better low-level sounds, more fun, also it supports rew, which support linux, etc. But there is pascal amp in the internals.
I heard that he is not very reliable and at least I do not want to risk it. Its formal parameters are also not the best, but I don't care. For this price tag I consider such risk is not very acceptable.
The question is what are the options to get the better sound. Obviously, for optimal results, I need a subwoofer,
or speakers that give good bass, such as dd. But I feel that dynamic range and low-level signals of my 8030c are
also not so good as in 8c at least and want something better in this sense.
My requirements:
- Near field
- I don't need extreme SPL, not a big fan of it also. If the speakers only play well at high volume, which is often the case, this is not my choice.
- No proprietary DSP things like genelec 83* or way to get reasonable alternative for it. I need support for linux because of it's my desktop.
- Subwoofer is ok, but two subwoofers 9k$ like genelecs are not ok))

Is the KEF R3 good option? Is it feels "fast" enough? I feel 8c fast and fun at for example, but many of another speakers are not, it feels boring for me.
Is the 8331 genelecs with this price a good option in my case? I will pay for dsp that I cannot use after all.
Do I enforced to pay (1-2)x 9k$ to get good subwoofer?

My preferable budget for speakers itself 2-5k$. The cost of amplifiers can not be taken into account in any way I can get it for 0$ sort of.

There is a huge difference in price and size between a 8030 and a D&D 8c. Do you have a budget?

 

[neg]

There is a huge difference in price and size between a 8030 and a D&D 8c. Do you have a budget?

When I listened to them for the first time, I didn't think about buying expensive speakers at all, it happened by accident. Well, now as I use my acoustics more and more, my willingness to spend money in this direction is becoming wider and wider.

In general, I can afford them, but now all the time and effort goes into experimenting with the room and I incrementally gets better result. When I decide that everything is good enough, I think I will stop at 2x8351b and 1x7360, which already have in my budget in general it's in the same price magnitude as dd 8c.

Also, after rearranging, I have to keep the monitors at a distance of about 1.6m due to the ultra-wide monitor, so I definitely need something more powerful than the 8331 for example.

I listened to dd again mostly to refine my first listening experience, because the cardio direction looks appealing compared to genelecs. Also attracted a second person for the quorum.