Audyssey's Next Generation of Room Correction (MultEQ-X)

[Dj7675]

Ok, I can agree with most of what you said. This entire industry is niche. I thought we all knew that.

I've told the Audyssey folks that they should rethink their licensing model.

I hope they are watching these forum posts. Instead of saying the obvious, what do you propose they change?

Hopefully the backlash against really unfair licensing (IMO) will get them to reconsider. I mean licensing doesn’t follow the original purchaser or the hardware. Nuts.

 

[Haint]

Ok, I can agree with most of what you said. This entire industry is niche. I thought we all knew that.

I've told the Audyssey folks that they should rethink their licensing model.

I hope they are watching these forum posts. Instead of saying the obvious, what do you propose they change?

The only way they'll even be included in a conversation with Onkyo/Pioneer is if X is included for free with every new XT32 series going forward. Even at that, their models being generally more expensive, their microphones being questionable, and XT32 being widely regarded as less sophisticated than Dirac is going to put them at a clear disadvantage. That is the absolute minimum they have to do though. I simply can't believe this wasn't intended to be a direct response to Onkyo/Pioneer securing Dirac, the timing would have to be a cosmic level coincidence otherwise. This was such an easy layup for D&M, it's honestly astounding how out of touch their decision makers are and how badly they managed to bungle a gimme.

With regards to existing owners (and lower series buyers), a $200 license is going to merit blowback (and poor sales) regardless, but would at least be somewhat justifiable if it was tied to (for example) your HEOS account, and that one time fee operated on as many Denon/Marantz as you own (or will ever own). The app as I understand it is already heavily DRM'ed with constant server side validation and would be trivial to attach an IP address to a "Residence" (like all the streaming cable services do) to keep installers from using 1 license in all of their projects. They would obviously sell far more software units at $20, $50, or $100, but tying it's use to a single serial number (regardless of price) is just completely braindead from a hardware business perspective.

As you said, this is a relatively niche industry in the grande scheme, which means a bulk of their sales are earned through reputation and word of mouth recommendation. Their present path will ultimately cost them a majority of their high end AVR sales, which doesn't seem a wise trade just to pick up a few hundred or a few thousand software licenses. Truthfully, D&M need to be cheaper than Onkyo/Pioneer, because right now they'd be a second choice even if X was free for everyone.

 

[joentell]

The only way they'll even be included in a conversation with Onkyo/Pioneer is if its included for free in every new XT32 series going forward. Even at that, their models being generally more expensive, their microphones being questionable, and XT32 being widely regarded as less sophisticated than Dirac is going to put them at a clear disadvantage. That is the absolute minimum they have to do though.

With regards to existing owners (and lower series buyers), a $200 license is going to merit blowback (and poor sales) regardless, but would at least be somewhat justifiable if it was tied to (for example) your HEOS account, and that one time fee operated on as many Denon/Marantz as you own (or will ever own). The app as I understand it is already heavily DRM'ed with constant server side validation and would be trivial to attach an IP address to a "Residence" (like all the streaming cable services do) to keep installers from using 1 license in all of their projects. They would obviously sell far more software units at $20, $50, or $100, but tying it's use to a single serial number (regardless of price) is just completely braindead from a business perspective. Their present path will ultimately cost them a majority of their high end AVR sales, which doesn't seem a wise trade just to pick up a few hundred or a few thousand software licenses.

I've already made them aware that people don't like the idea of tying it to both a single person and a single serial number. I also am not for that. I would rather the license be tied to the serial number only so that if you buy it for a particular AVR, it would go with that AVR when you sell it and you could possibly recoup a bit of the money.

A few things to consider. Audyssey and Sound United, parent company to Denon & Marantz, are separate companies. This is an Audyssey product.

The other thing is they're partially targeting custom installers. If they did not tie it to a particular unit, an installer could buy a single license and use it for every AVR they came across. In that case, they would probably want to charge a much higher price.

For me, the ideal scenario would be for the customer to be able to transfer their license to a new AVR, but it would deactivate it on another AVR. Kind of like how when you buy a Kindle book, you're allowed to have it on a few devices. If you add it to another device it deactivates on another. Maybe limit the number of moves to 3. Just an idea.

 

[Sal1950]

It's a shockingly consumer unfriendly move.

Not based against what Dirac charges. $200 for Live to Full, and another $500 for the DLBC bass app.

Other receivers are coming to market with Dirac included. If Sound United wants to be competitive they should include Dirac or MultEQ-X as part of the product.

Most AVR's come with Dirac Live, the downscaled version. If you want the Full app, that will cost you another $200 for the upgrade. Then if you want the DLBM bass management app, that will cost you another $500. As it stands most D-M AVRs come with Audyssey and the Editor update is only another $20.

At this point I need to see how much X will add over running Editor in Bluestacks emulator on my Win PC before I lay down the $200.
As I read things though, this is only a starting point for X, with more features, etc to come. BUT it's not promised that they all will be useable on the older gear. It takes a lot of internal processing power in the AVR to do this DRC and as the program gets stronger, I beleive this is where the older units like my AV7703 will run into trouble. Thats my only beef with the license, if I buy a new Marantz sometime in the future, I'd either want Audyssey X to come on it for free, or be transferable from my 7703. That's just like the $200 I paid to upgrade my AV7703 to Auro-3D, I've no problem with that, I believe it was worth the money and since all new models come with it installed for free.
Can't wait to download the new program and use it's free demo to see exactly what it's all about at this point.

 

[Haint]

I've already made them aware that people don't like the idea of tying it to both a single person and a single serial number. I also am not for that. I would rather the license be tied to the serial number only so that if you buy it for a particular AVR, it would go with that AVR when you sell it and you could possibly recoup a bit of the money.

A few things to consider. Audyssey and Sound United, parent company to Denon & Marantz, are separate companies. This is an Audyssey product.

The other thing is they're partially targeting custom installers. If they did not tie it to a particular unit, an installer could buy a single license and use it for every AVR they came across. In that case, they would probably want to charge a much higher price.

For me, the ideal scenario would be for the customer to be able to transfer their license to a new AVR, but it would deactivate it on another AVR. Kind of like how when you buy a Kindle book, you're allowed to have it on a few devices. If you add it to another device it deactivates on another. Maybe limit the number of moves to 3. Just an idea.

Your first proposal fails to address multi-unit owners though, who are probably much more likely to be the enthusiasts that know and care about this. Almost certainly more so than people buying bargain second hand AVR's off Craigslist or FB.

There are also myriad solutions to curb installer abuse with a server validated app like this. As I proposed above, require an IP address and ISP to be registered as a "household/residence" like the streaming cable systems do. The same network and internet connection are already required for both the app and AVR. When the app attempts to set up AVRs out of the residence, force a verification process that can only be that can only be changed once every X-number of months. Set a reasonable soft limit of like 5 AVR's per license and require enhanced verification to expand it or to remove deprecated models. This is how streaming cable providers keep people from sharing subscriptions. Even if some installer is crazy enough to buy a static VPN IP and use a tether or pocket router for all his setups, they'd be caught by the soft limit. Not that that's a reasonable concern in the first place, the vast majority of them won't even use this, and those that do will have no problem tacking an extra $200 on their comically inflated invoices.

$200 for a single unit (transferable or not) simply isn't a reasonable cost given the competition and market realities. AFAIK Audyssey doesn't even have a business outside of their OEM licensing, so a cratering of Denon sells is going to mean a cratering of Audyssey sales. D&M owners by the way already paid substantial Audyssey licenses when they bought their AVR (I've seen XT32 estimated to cost around $200+ per unit).

Not based against what Dirac charges. $200 for Live to Full, and another $500 for the DLBC bass app.

Most AVR's come with Dirac Live, the downscaled version. If you want the Full app, that will cost you another $200 for the upgrade. Then if you want the DLBM bass management app, that will cost you another $500. As it stands most D-M AVRs come with Audyssey and the Editor update is only another $20.

At this point I need to see how much X will add over running Editor in Bluestacks emulator on my Win PC before I lay down the $200.
As I read things though, this is only a starting point for X, with more features, etc to come. BUT it's not promised that they all will be useable on the older gear. It takes a lot of internal processing power in the AVR to do this DRC and as the program gets stronger, I beleive this is where the older units like my AV7703 will run into trouble. Thats my only beef with the license, if I buy a new Marantz sometime in the future, I'd either want Audyssey X to come on it for free, or be transferable from my 7703. That's just like the $200 I paid to upgrade my AV7703 to Auro-3D, I've no problem with that, I believe it was worth the money and since all new models come with it installed for free.
Can't wait to download the new program and use it's free demo to see exactly what it's all about at this point.

This might be a good point if the "downscaled" Dirac in Onkyo/Pioneer wasn't already more advanced, feature rich, and customizable than XT32 with Audyssey X.

 

[Sal1950]

This might be a good point if the "downscaled version" on Onkyo/Pioneer wasn't already more advanced, feature rich, and customizable than XT32 with Audyssey X.

Then cuddle up with your preferred mix and move on.

 

[Webninja]

Then cuddle up with your preferred mix and move on.

I agree, it’s odd to me how upset some of these posts are. Yes, Audyssey could have done a better job with pricing, but no one is forcing us to install this for our AVRs to function.

You don’t like Audyssey or D&M AVRs or how this is priced, vote with your wallet and make your next AVR another brand.

For now I’ll stick with the app, and wait to see how this add on tool progresses in features and maybe a better pricing structure.

 

[sweetchaos]

Poll Added.

Please vote!

Edit: Mistake option 3. I can't edit the poll anymore.

I'm a current AVR owner. $200 price is acceptable. $200 price is too high. Anything lower is better.

should be:

I'm a current AVR owner. $200 price is acceptable. $200 price is too high. Anything lower is better.

 

[sweetchaos]

Yes, I've already saw the mistake in my earlier post. But I can't edit the poll anymore. I've asked to see if Adam can help.

 

[chych7]

I'll fork over the $200 if it actually provides $200 worth of improvement over what I currently have. Waiting to hear about that.

 

[sweetchaos]

Sound United posted their video on Youtube 3hrs ago:

It's 1.5hr long.

 

[Datec]

I meant no one in the rhetorical sense, in that it's an infinitesimally small market. Certainly there's exponentially higher demand for wholesale AVR upgrades, be it for better room correction, HDMI 2.1, more wattage, or what have you. I agree that the $200 license might make some level of sense specifically for X700 Series owners who plan to keep them until they die, but for the reliable upgrader or those with older models it's incredibly difficult to justify.

As I mentioned, tying the license to a single user and serial number actively discourages that customer from ever buying a new Denon/Marantz (as you're effectively flushing $400 in software licenses down the toilet--$200 wasted on your old unit, and another $200 buying a redundancy for the new unit). Factor in customers who own multiple D&M AVR's (who they should be rewarding for their loyalty, not actively spiting) and you'll eventually multiply that by 2x, 3x, 4x, or more.

I get that they're ostensibly targeting "Pro's" here, but that's a very small market, and the overwhelming majority of projects using Denon/Marantz are just installers dumping a bunch of Klipsch speakers in a partially finished basement. 9 out of 10 of them don't even bother running Audyssey and the 1 who does sets the mic on the floor or the seat of the couch. The people doing fully treated $50,000+ rooms with real measurement based setup are being upsold "boutique" electronics and speakers, not Denon's.

Dennis Erisken has used Denons in his installs. I know that for a fact when I talked with him and his installs are not cheep and perform like nobody's business. It all depends on what is needed for the project and the space requires to get it to perform.

 

[Sal1950]

I agree, it’s odd to me how upset some of these posts are. Yes, Audyssey could have done a better job with pricing, but no one is forcing us to install this for our AVRs to function.

Good post!
You know what's even funnier, over on AVS Forum there's a dedicated thread for the Editor app that's been up since 5-2017 when it was released and is now over 404 pages, 8075 posts long. You wouldn't believe the amount of posts that have been made whining, pissing, and moaning over the $20 they charge for the app. WTF, are you kidding me, $20 more dollars into a system they have thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars into already? I couldn't believe it, talk about CHEAP. LOL
I posted more than once IMO that the $20 was probably the best deal I got EVER in Hi Fi .
That was not well received by many.

 

[bo_knows]

Good post!
You know what's even funnier, over on AVS Forum there's a dedicated thread for the Editor app that's been up since 5-2017 when it was released and is now over 404 pages, 8075 posts long. You wouldn't believe the amount of posts that have been made whining, pissing, and moaning over the $20 they charge for the app. WTF, are you kidding me, $20 more dollars into a system they have thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars into already? I couldn't believe it, talk about CHEAP. LOL
I posted more than once IMO that the $20 was probably the best deal I got EVER in Hi Fi .
That was not well received by many.

You should tell them, spend the $20 on the app and get up of your knees. Suboowerf crawling is over! LMAO.

 

[Datec]

Good post!
You know what's even funnier, over on AVS Forum there's a dedicated thread for the Editor app that's been up since 5-2017 when it was released and is now over 404 pages, 8075 posts long. You wouldn't believe the amount of posts that have been made whining, pissing, and moaning over the $20 they charge for the app. WTF, are you kidding me, $20 more dollars into a system they have thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars into already? I couldn't believe it, talk about CHEAP. LOL
I posted more than once IMO that the $20 was probably the best deal I got EVER in Hi Fi .
That was not well received by many.

Absolutely correct, your post and the one you quoted.

This just got released and upgrades I'm sure are gonna be coming. Instead of sitting on the sidelines throwing garbage and whining about things you have absolutely no 1st hand experience with you can either buy it and find out for yourself or just sit back and quit complaining cause your not gonna pay the $200 anyhow for reasons that are your own.
I paid my $200 so if things don't work, I have the right to piss and moan not you. There is only one way to find out for sure and that's to pay for it.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

No it doesn't - it won't work for the new user.

Well, unless they're happy with the calibration for your old room, and aren't intending to run their own.

(At least this is what I'm assuming when they say per-user. With Audyssey Pro, you have to regenerate keys online from your installer account for one of your licensed AVRs. With that system I suppose the new owner could get in touch with the old owner to ask them to ask Audyssey for a new key whenever necessary. They last a month. This might be tricker though.)

Should be easy if seller cooperates.

 

[beren777]

I'd vote in the poll but my preference isn't there. I'd likely pony up the $200 if it was tied to the buyer and could be used across any of the receivers on the buyer's local LAN. The price isn't objectionable to me, just the licensing terms.

 

[sweetchaos]

I'd vote in the poll but my preference isn't there. I'd likely pony up the $200 if it was tied to the buyer and could be used across any of the receivers on the buyer's local LAN. The price isn't objectionable to me, just the licensing terms.

How about if I add 2 more poll options?
I'm a current AVR owner. $200 price is acceptable, but I don't like the restrictive terms. Wont buy.
I'm not an owner. $200 price is acceptable, but I don't like the restrictive terms. Wont buy.

 

[beren777]

How about if I add 2 more poll options?
I'm a current AVR owner. $200 price is acceptable, but I don't like the restrictive terms. Wont buy.
I'm not an owner. $200 price is acceptable, but I don't like the restrictive terms. Wont buy.

Sounds good, though I reserve the right to secretly buy a license and deny it so that I don't publicly contradict myself on ASR.

 

[Sancus]

Not based against what Dirac charges. $200 for Live to Full, and another $500 for the DLBC bass app.

I think a lot depends on how prices shake out and what models are released. If the TX-RZ70/ VSX-LX705 rumors are true and they're around $2000 w/full DLBC(2 independent sub channels) for ~+$500 that's a really strong competitor. Most people will achieve far better results that way, the manual PEQ option is a lot of work and doesn't offer the phase or crossover optimization benefits of Dirac either.

Denon/Marantz prices have gone up 25% based on MSRP since 2020 and more like 50-100% if you consider there's no such thing as old stock anymore. I paid $960USD for my AVR-X4500H in early 2020...with Sound United increasing prices in January, it's entirely possible the 4700H or successor will land at $2300 or even $2500. Without the app.

That's a huge amount of money to spend considering Audyssey's base capability has not changed in what... 10 years? I have no idea when XT32 was introduced.