Audyssey XT32 vs Dirac Live

[Dougey_Jones]

My setup will only have one row (couch). I'll give it a whirl without MSO first and see how I like it, then go from there.

I appreciate the feedback.

 

[Steve Dallas]

You should not use equalization (auto or manual) to fill in nulls. You should use bass traps, broadband absorbers, or move the MLP. Using EQ to fill in nulls is just asking for more driver distortion without actually curing the problem.

When your room is a cube, a huge number of bass traps are required to solve the null problems, no matter the listening position. No wife on the planet is OK with that. When your speakers exhibit low distortion properties at the affected frequencies, and SPLs are relatively low, distortion is not a problem.

 

[GalZohar]

From demo videos of subwoofer calibration and common sense, seems like for 2 subs the most important thing is getting the delay right between them, which can't be done with just an AVR that doesn't have individual subwoofer outputs, but even if you have SubEQ HT it might not set the delays optimally and seems like you can't change that manually (at least not while keeping the applied EQ working correctly). So while SubEQ HT is better than nothing, I guess anything that gives individual subwoofer delays would be better than SubEQ HT (even if done manually), and then any additional DSP on top (like individual subwoofer PEQs for MSO) will be a further improvement.

 

[chych7]

You should not use equalization (auto or manual) to fill in nulls. You should use bass traps, broadband absorbers, or move the MLP. Using EQ to fill in nulls is just asking for more driver distortion without actually curing the problem.

And well placed and integrated multiple subwoofers with EQ. Bass traps will provide improvement, but they have to be huge to completely kill a null. Multiple subs can act in non-intuitive ways to get rid of peaks/nulls, like one sub cancelling out another (using phase) at specific freqs.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

From demo videos of subwoofer calibration and common sense, seems like for 2 subs the most important thing is getting the delay right between them, which can't be done with just an AVR that doesn't have individual subwoofer outputs, but even if you have SubEQ HT it might not set the delays optimally and seems like you can't change that manually (at least not while keeping the applied EQ working correctly). So while SubEQ HT is better than nothing, I guess anything that gives individual subwoofer delays would be better than SubEQ HT (even if done manually), and then any additional DSP on top (like individual subwoofer PEQs for MSO) will be a further improvement.

@ $225, a MiniDSP 2x4 HD with MSO sounds like a no brainer considering I already have a UMIK and that the results would be as good or better than DLBC and that I could run up to four subs.

 

[Soundmixer]

When your room is a cube, a huge number of bass traps are required to solve the null problems, no matter the listening position. No wife on the planet is OK with that. When your speakers exhibit low distortion properties at the affected frequencies, and SPLs are relatively low, distortion is not a problem.

Your speakers do not have infinitely low distortion properties or infinite SPL - it has limits on both. It is less than bright to even try to fill in a null, as the more you try, the deeper the null gets. None of your latter comment matters based on that.

 

[Soundmixer]

And well placed and integrated multiple subwoofers with EQ. Bass traps will provide improvement, but they have to be huge to completely kill a null. Multiple subs can act in non-intuitive ways to get rid of peaks/nulls, like one sub cancelling out another (using phase) at specific freqs.

Thank you, but I already know this.

 

[chych7]

Thank you, but I already know this.

Then you should have said that in your previous post, instead of insisting on just room treatments. Multiple subs + EQ will do way more for reducing nulls than room treatments, which are more useful for reverb control than peak/null suppression.

 

[Soundmixer]

Then you should have said that in your previous post, instead of insisting on just room treatments. Multiple subs + EQ will do way more for reducing nulls than room treatments, which are more useful for reverb control than peak/null suppression.

Why do I have to go through in-depth detail just to make a point that satisfies you? I made no insistence on anything, I made a mention - and it is in fact a solution to nulls. If you eliminate the reflection pattern that creates the null, the null fills in.

Multiple subs and EQ are also a solution, but there is no evidence whatsoever that it is a better solution than bass traps or broadband absorption - space constraints aside. I would dare to say using both are better than using one or the other.

 

[Steve Dallas]

Your speakers do not have infinitely low distortion properties or infinite SPL - it has limits on both. It is less than bright to even try to fill in a null, as the more you try, the deeper the null gets. None of your latter comment matters based on that.

Sorry, but you make no sense, unless you are considering utilizing only EQ without also adjusting phase.

With DRC, you can turn this:

Into this (and often better):

Without filling your room with bass traps and annoying your spouse in the process. Look at that! With nothing more than FIR magic (aka physics), we have turned very audible deep, broad nulls into mostly inaudible shallow, narrow nulls without greatly increasing distortion. Amazing!

I suggest you read this:

Amazon.com

 

[ernestcarl]

Sorry, but you make no sense, unless you are considering utilizing only EQ without also adjusting phase.

I believe the bulk of mixed phase FIR EQ being applied is likely going to be plain minimum phase EQ anyway -- i.e. fixing/adjusting the magnitude already will improve the phase as well. Seems to me it's mainly those new to EQ that commit the error of force-overfilling all "nulls" and/or dips.

 

[theREALdotnet]

Fix for microphone issues link.

Having just watched that video (thanks for the laugh ), may I ask a slightly off-topic question…

What do people think about the importance of using the “wind-breaker” foam cup with their UMIKs, in non-windy listening rooms? As an engineer I should probably setup a test to compare the microphone response with and without foam, but as an engineer I’m also terminally lazy, so someone has perhaps already done this and would care to share their results?

 

[holbob]

Sorry, but you make no sense, unless you are considering utilizing only EQ without also adjusting phase.

With DRC, you can turn this:

View attachment 198584

Into this (and often better):

View attachment 198585

Without filling your room with bass traps and annoying your spouse in the process. Look at that! With nothing more than FIR magic (aka physics), we have turned very audible deep, broad nulls into mostly inaudible shallow, narrow nulls without greatly increasing distortion. Amazing!

I suggest you read this:

Amazon.com

Can you do this without boosting and using significant amplifier power though? I admit I don't really understand what FIR filters do. I use Dirac, to about 180hz, and move the points down to follow the SBIR so Dirac doesn't boost. Is it different with FIR filters as far as boosting is concerned.

 

[ernestcarl]

Can you do this without boosting and using significant amplifier power though? I admit I don't really understand what FIR filters do. I use Dirac, to about 180hz, and move the points down to follow the SBIR so Dirac doesn't boost. Is it different with FIR filters as far as boosting is concerned.

DRC is configurable (some more than others) in that it will let you choose how much of a boost to allow. FIR filters already can do what ordinary IIR filters can... but with the addition of independent phase EQ.


Here are just two examples:

FIR settings behaving like normal IIR EQ with no additional time delay penalty (red phase trace) for using all minimum phase PEQs


BUT, suppose you want to specifically apply a linear phase HPF instead in addition to normal MP PEQs to your sub to significantly reduce the incurred GD (blue phase trace):

Notice the slope of the phase is now less steep -- i.e. less incurred group delay -- at the cost some added time delay (170.67 ms)

 

[Soundmixer]

Sorry, but you make no sense, unless you are considering utilizing only EQ without also adjusting phase.

With DRC, you can turn this:

View attachment 198584

Into this (and often better):

View attachment 198585

I suggest you read this:

Amazon.com

If you notice (as I cut through the snark), nothing was done to the nulls. DRC reduced the peaks, JUST AS I SAID!!!! It is not smart (or dare I might say stupid??) to try and fill in a null. Audyssey doesn't do it, DRC doesn't do it, Trinnov doesn't do it, and if you are really smart, you won't do it manually with PEQ.

Without filling your room with bass traps and annoying your spouse in the process. Look at that! With nothing more than FIR magic (aka physics), we have turned very audible deep, broad nulls into mostly inaudible shallow, narrow nulls without greatly increasing distortion. Amazing

My two rooms are dedicated, I don't have a wife, and there is nobody to annoy but my three dogs. Without GREATLY increasing distortion is key here. You do in fact increase distortion, and it is quite unnecessary. If you include bass traps properly placed, you would decrease the reflective pattern that created the nulls in the first place. THEN you apply electronic equalization which would flatten the overall frequency response without adding ANY distortion. When it comes to electronic equalization, less is more.


I have four bass traps in my corners, and you don't know they are there. I have a HUGE bass trap under the platform of my second row of seats, and you don't know it is there. Let's come into the present. Bass traps do not have to look ugly. They can be blended into any decor, this is the 21st century.

Lastly, you cannot hear a null, that is why it is called a null. As was stated earlier, corrections in the bass region are minimum phase events.

 

[bigjohns97]

From my households perspective, the main functionality that is lacking on the Onkyo family, is a Night time listening mode, with a proper loudness compensation curve for listening at night, or with loudness challenged family members.... Audyssey Dynamic EQ is a great feature, and DIRAC has nothing like it - which is a sad gap in feature set - but reflects the audiophile orientation - We shall see how things pan out, I plan to use one of the DIRAC slots, as a loudness compensate custom EQ.

@dlaloum I knew I wasn't the only one who found this feature to be essential when looking to upgrade AVR's. I would love to be able to break away from Denon but this is the one feature that keeps me purchasing Denon gear. If you ever find anything that could replace it or possibly even provide a better solution please post it.

 

[dlaloum]

@dlaloum I knew I wasn't the only one who found this feature to be essential when looking to upgrade AVR's. I would love to be able to break away from Denon but this is the one feature that keeps me purchasing Denon gear. If you ever find anything that could replace it or possibly even provide a better solution please post it.

There is a Late Night Listening mode, associated with Dolby Surround decoder... - not as good as the Audyssey version, but adequate... (basically provides compression)

Within the Web interface, you can also activate the Dolby "Loudness" feature - which adjust EQ to match volume level, so that is the other half of that Audyssey feature.

Those are not available if you are using a different decoder (eg: DTS, Direct, etc..) - ie anything other than Dolby.

To me the gains is sound quality from Dirac, are worth the slight step down in Loudness and Compression features.

I have ended up using Dolby Surround pretty much exclusively, as it provides the best results ... to my ears / system - so it all works out fine for my use case

 

[prerich]

Yes that's part of it, will only be targeted for the area that's covered by the measurements. Also, Dirac (without DLBC) probably will be limited in how much it can optimize for FR using PEQ/gains/delays/time alignment, especially since the RZ50 doesn't have two independent sub outputs. That said, I'd first evaluate how the bass response looks after Dirac, before investing in the miniDSP. I did this in my system primarily because I have two rows; it's *really* hard to get two rows to both have good bass, without something like miniDSP/MSO. If I was only optimizing for the front row/MLP, Audyssey by itself would do a reasonably decent job (while leaving the back row sounding horrible). Still with MSO, it improves upon what Audyssey can do. It inherently has a much more sophisticated algorithm at optimizing bass response (more similar to DLBC in this regard... but free!).

I actually went the opposite route...I eq'd my subs first (No Audyssey or Dirac.....the only thing I had was the distances and leveled). After I got the subs dialed in with my minidsp and placed the filters into it from REW, I ran Audyssey and saw that it didn't do too much to what I had already done with REW. I actually have Audyssey MultEQ-X (windows app) as well as Dirac Live Multichannel version. It took a while to get Dirac sounding proper (turn off gain and delay compensation). They both sound good to me, but I like the way Audyssey SubHT handled the bass....Dirac without DLBC sucked all of it away. If it's legal to do so, I may sell my DIrac license if I fell that I no longer need it....Audyssey MultEQ-X has made me a happy camper. Even without Audyssey, I've actually applied linear phase filters via convolution using REW and rePhase, putting the resulting filters into JRiver Convolution. Dirac is an excellent solution but so is Audyssey - especially with the MultEQ-X add-on.

 

[goodkeys]

Dirac Live is 30% off until Sunday with code BLACK2022. Thinking about buying it in addition to the Audyssey of my x3700h. Would it be a step up over Audyssey without the Multeq-X?

 

[prerich]

Dirac Live is 30% off until Sunday with code BLACK2022. Thinking about buying it in addition to the Audyssey of my x3700h. Would it be a step up over Audyssey without the MultEQ-X

Are you going to run Dirac Live via a PC?