Audyssey Room EQ Review

[Reverend Slim]

Please don't exaggerate. The level changes between front and rear only amount to a few inches of perceived image shift, which you will never notice with your head forward and paying attention to the movie.

But it's not an exaggeration, and is easily heard if you play pans around the room or speaker pair tones for setting cross-channel imaging. It creates a bias that fundamentally changes the perceived placement, and by degrees, not inches. Perhaps it's an "ignorance is bliss" situation, but once heard, it can't be un-heard. If you're fine with the shift in imaging, then by all means, go with God. But we can't pretend that the issue doesn't exist, and that a general EQ solution can largely make DEQ irrelevant, especially when mastering levels for streaming have shifted things in a direction that DEQ's offset can't account for.

 

[LeoB]

But it's not an exaggeration, and is easily heard if you play pans around the room or speaker pair tones for setting cross-channel imaging. It creates a bias that fundamentally changes the perceived placement, and by degrees, not inches. Perhaps it's an "ignorance is bliss" situation, but once heard, it can't be un-heard. If you're fine with the shift in imaging, then by all means, go with God. But we can't pretend that the issue doesn't exist, and that a general EQ solution can largely make DEQ irrelevant, especially when mastering levels for streaming have shifted things in a direction that DEQ's offset can't account for.

I'm with you on the image shift - it is very noticeable. I can neither enjoy movies nor music without compensating for the DEQ surround boost.
However, I respectfully disagree with your statement that a general EQ solution can largely make DEQ irrelevant. I usually set the master volume anywhere between -20dB and -35dB, and DEQ really helps with keeping LF at about the same level.

 

[Reverend Slim]

I'm with you on the image shift - it is very noticeable. I can neither enjoy movies nor music without compensating for the DEQ surround boost.
However, I respectfully disagree with your statement that a general EQ solution can largely make DEQ irrelevant. I usually set the master volume anywhere between -20dB and -35dB, and DEQ really helps with keeping LF at about the same level.

Certainly understandable if your listening levels vary that wildly. And I do wish there was a solution that only made changes to bass. I guess it just depends on which beast you want to feed. I would rather have consistent imaging across the board than worry about bass at lower MV levels. But then, I am almost never at a lower MV level.

 

[LeoB]

Agree - if you always listen at the same MV level +-3dB, DEQ is completely irrelevant.

 

[techsamurai]

I just ran Audyssey on a Denon 4800h.

Am I supposed to see levels for the subwoofer? I see my 5 channels but that's it.

Incidentally, I compared it to the Mult-EQ from 15 years ago and there were a few changes here and there but overall it's close to the same.

 

[krabapple]

Agree - if you always listen at the same MV level +-3dB, DEQ is completely irrelevant.

Huh?

DEQ does not become 'irrelevant' simply because you always listen at about the same MV. That's not how equal loudness contours work.

If your MV is low compared to whatever SPL the source was mastered at, then you will perceive bass and treble reduced compared to what it 'should be'. According to Audyssey, DEQ is referenced to the 'standard' level for film mixing, which is 0 dB on your volume dial (assuming you've set it to display dB) . If you're listening to film soundtracks with your MV set below that (or above it!), you need EQ compensation.

For music and other nonfilm sources, having no standard, it's a crapshoot.

 

[LeoB]

If you listen at fixed MV, you just eq your system using a house curve that follows an equal loudness contour for that volume and you don't need DEQ.

 

[ExPerfectionist]

I just ran Audyssey on a Denon 4800h.

Am I supposed to see levels for the subwoofer? I see my 5 channels but that's it.

Incidentally, I compared it to the Mult-EQ from 15 years ago and there were a few changes here and there but overall it's close to the same.

On my Marantz, I don't see the graphics in the on-screen GUI when I look at the Results > Equalizer.

But I use the Audyssey app on my phone and use the features there to tailor the EQ settings before uploading it to the receiver, so I see the results there.

 

[krabapple]

If you listen at fixed MV, you just eq your system using a house curve that follows an equal loudness contour for that volume and you don't need DEQ.

But there is more than one dimension of 'level'. The sources themselves will not be all created at the same reference level (unless they are movie soundtracks, and are actually mixed according to the standard) . They will only be amplified the same amount. The house curve you set for your unvarying MV is not 'dynamic' wrt to the source levels.


This is why Floyd Toole laments the demise of simple broadband bass and treble knobs, so we can adjust as needed on a recording-to-recording basis.

 

[LeoB]

Let's put simple, DEQ parameters dynamically change with MV. At fixed MV, the DYNAMIC part of DEQ is not used at all, and it becomes just a regular EQ.

 

[Reverend Slim]

But there is more than one dimension of 'level'. The sources themselves will not be all created at the same reference level (unless they are movie soundtracks, and are actually mixed according to the standard) . They will only be amplified the same amount. The house curve you set for your unvarying MV is not 'dynamic' wrt to the source levels.


This is why Floyd Toole laments the demise of simple broadband bass and treble knobs, so we can adjust as needed on a recording-to-recording basis.

Again, the problem is that home video is no longer mastered to reference, and varies wildly. When DEQ was introduced, DVDs were largely done to reference and any adjustments indicated with the dialnorm parameter with Dolby tracks. Blu-ray and UHD? All over the map. Streaming? Sometimes so far off that you can't account for it with DEQ's offset parameter, or worse, mastered in the opposite direction from what the offset can even correct.

If content actually followed a standard anymore, then DEQ might have more utility. But now, even with movies, you're basically guessing. DEQ is essentially applying a sliding scale to a moving target. You might assume that it's tracking equal loudness, but in essence, you're throwing a dart blindfolded in a hurricane and assuming it hit the target.

 

[krabapple]

Again, the problem is that home video is no longer mastered to reference, and varies wildly.

hence my proviso 'and are actually mixed according to the standard"

When DEQ was introduced, DVDs were largely done to reference and any adjustments indicated with the dialnorm parameter with Dolby tracks. Blu-ray and UHD? All over the map. Streaming? Sometimes so far off that you can't account for it with DEQ's offset parameter, or worse, mastered in the opposite direction from what the offset can even correct.

If content actually followed a standard anymore, then DEQ might have more utility. But now, even with movies, you're basically guessing. DEQ is essentially applying a sliding scale to a moving target. You might assume that it's tracking equal loudness, but in essence, you're throwing a dart blindfolded in a hurricane and assuming it hit the target.

Agreed 100%

 

[krabapple]

Because it's worth reposting now and then, here's the link to the long 'Ask Audyssey' thread where Chris K. fielded questions about DEQ and reference level offsets , in 2011

https://ask.audyssey.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level

skimming it again I wish Chris had made it immediately clear that:

you can get the 'correct' EQ of a movie (assuming it's mixed to standard) by setting your MV to 0 dB -- which is really loud in most home environments

OR

you can get the same correct EQ at a lower, more comfortable master volume, by activating DEQ.

Period.

Beyond that there are all sorts of qualifications and provisos as to how 'correct' your EQ will be when using DEQ.

 

[Reverend Slim]

Because it's worth reposting now and then, here's the link to the long 'Ask Audyssey' thread where Chris K. fielded questions about DEQ and reference level offsets , in 2011

https://ask.audyssey.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level

skimming it again I wish Chris had made it immediately clear that:

you can get the 'correct' EQ of a movie (assuming it's mixed to standard) by setting your MV to 0 dB -- which is really loud in most home environments

OR

you can get the same correct EQ at a lower, more comfortable master volume, by activating DEQ.

Period.

Beyond that there are all sorts of qualifications and provisos as to how 'correct' your EQ will be when using DEQ.

"Correct" based on a survey of mixers and how they would adjust things at lower volumes. Not strictly equal loudness, not based on any particular research regarding how surround/height levels should be changed at lower volumes. Not even anything specific to immersive audio at all, since it didn't exist at the time the survey of mixers was done. Just an averaging of what a group of mixers did in one particular test they did many years ago.

Not sure any of that can technically equate to the "correct" EQ of a movie, even in theory and even back when things were mastered to the standard. Even more so if you use Audyssey Reference, since mixes are largely pre-compensated for home listening. "Correct" in this context is still a shot in the dark at a moving target.

 

[krabapple]

Single quotes around a word typically mean 'air quotes', with all that implies.

Even more so if you use Audyssey Reference, since mixes are largely pre-compensated for home listening.

How can that possibly matter? The problem is that the perceived EQ changes when the user changes playback level. No amount of 'pre compensating' will fix that.

 

[Reverend Slim]

Single quotes around a word typically mean 'air quotes', with all that implies.



How can that possibly matter? The problem is that the perceived EQ changes when the user changes playback level. No amount of 'pre compensating' will fix that.

Because DEQ doesn't just boost bass but also highs in the frequency range affected by Audyssey's Reference target curve... where much of the pre-compensation for home listening occurs. My point was that this ideal of the "correct" EQ of a movie kinda' goes out the window when a lot of people are filtering content that has already been filtered, then applying a sliding scale that also changes content in that region. Lots of overlapping modifications of the original source content going on. Literally no way to gauge what the "correct" EQ would be. Even if you mean it with air quotes.

 

[gelv]

i have a stupid question about how audyssey works
If i connect or disconnect a subwoofer will it deactivate audyssey force me to rerun calibration
I have a preset that i dont want to lose lol

 

[amper42]

i have a stupid question about how audyssey works
If i connect or disconnect a subwoofer will it deactivate audyssey force me to rerun calibration
I have a preset that i dont want to lose lol

No, it won't force a recalibration.

 

[burkm]

Audyssey XT32 will not connect or disconnect a subwoofer, because it will just play the system with its corresponding corrections like it found it during the measurements.
It will not "force" a recalibration either. Every action is up to the user...

 

[gelv]

That is good to hear
I am having a fun experiment with different subwoofers with REW