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Audyssey Room EQ Review

krabapple

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Audyssey Labs says (in 2011) "
Contrary to popular belief, a target curve that is flat from 20 Hz to 20 kHz is not always the one that will produce the correct sound. There are several reasons for this including the fact that loudspeakers are much more directional at high frequencies than they are at low frequencies. This means that the balance of direct and room sound is very different at the high and low ends of the frequency spectrum.

The Audyssey Reference target curve setting (also called Movie in some products) makes the appropriate correction at high frequencies to alleviate this problem. A slight roll-off is introduced that restores the balance between direct and reflected sound.

The Audyssey Flat setting (also called Music in some products) uses the MultEQ filters in the same way as the Audyssey curve, but it does not apply a high frequency roll-off. This setting is appropriate for very small or highly treated rooms in which the listener is seated quite close to the loudspeakers. It is also recommended for all rooms when the receiver is in THX processing mode. This allows THX re-equalization to operate exactly as it was intended.

I'm not sure I get the rationale there. It comes down to what Audyssey means by a desirable 'balance of direct and room sound' at the listening position. Do they mean a psychoacoustically informed balance (e.g., a Harman curve, where bass and treble are *perceived* to be in balance) or an objectively balanced one where treble frequencies have no more or less measured level than bass frequencies? That would be 'flat' at the MLP. I'm not sure what Audyssey is aiming for here.
 

KKoen

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@amirm
I tried a different way of measuring
Used a Paradigm PW Link Pre-amp with ARC as a line-in into a Denon x3500h going into a Marantz Integrated
Setup a flat curve with non BBC dip.

I seem to be getting a pretty decent fit against the ideal except a few 3-5db bumps at 75hz, 200hz (200 i think is this room's schroeder point) and an unexpected bump around 600
However do keep in mind that I took the measurement during the day time with far less than ideal conditions - with HVAC hum and some external noise + bird chirps

Original Measurement with Audyssey

View attachment 64525

Wishful thinking Curve


View attachment 64526





Actual Measurement with ARC Genesis

View attachment 64527

The green graph is the average of the points you measured without equalization and the red graph is the average of the correction that was made.

What do we see in the ARC ..?

What audyssey shows is true if you do the measurements before and after with rew
 
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superczar

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The green graph is the average of the points you measured without equalization and the red graph is the average of the correction that was made.

What do we see in the ARC ..?

What audyssey shows is true if you do the measurements before and after with rew
What you need to see is the Red line which is the actulal measurement by ARC
The other lines are for the calculated (but unapplied) equalization and expected result.

To elaborate further, the ARC pre-amp out is feeding into the Denon which is then applying the Audyssey equalization.
Thus what ARC hears (red line) is the speaker response after Audyssey equalization
 

KKoen

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What you see in the ARC is wrong. It is a measurement position.
What you see in audyssey is the before and after curve average 3-8 positions that you placed the mic audyssey.
You can verify this if it is correct with rew.
Make measurements before and after the same positions you placed the mic audyssey as large speakers and see if it is the same as audyssey.
I've done it with rew and you see the same results as audyssey.
 

superczar

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What you see in the ARC is wrong. It is a measurement position.
What you see in audyssey is the before and after curve average 3-8 positions that you placed the mic audyssey.
You can verify this if it is correct with rew.
Make measurements before and after the same positions you placed the mic audyssey as large speakers and see if it is the same as audyssey.
I've done it with rew and you see the same results as audyssey.

Not sure what you are trying to convey.

Audyssey (prior to any correction) measured my speaker & room response and calculated a correction curve that was applied.
Audyssey predicted a corrected response (which it does not and cannot measure) which is very near flat

Now it’s unlikely that the audyssey corrected response would turn out to be as flat as it predicts
In order to measure the actual corrected response, I used Anthem instead of REW by using an ARC preamp in the chain before the audyssey receiver
(In fact I also measure the ARC response curve directly - the measurement was very similar to what Audyssey measured)
Presuming XT32 does a perfect job, the measurement from ARC should have been as flat as the predicted audyssey curve -which is the red line in the ARC graph that was generated after 5 sweeps and presented as the average - you can ignore the other lines on the ARC graph as the ARC correction was not uploaded/used on the pre-amp

The real measurement was not as flat as what audyssey predicted but it is quite good nonetheless- and better than I had expected
 

KKoen

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only with rew you see what audyssey does

average.jpg
 
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superczar

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only with rew you see what audyssey does
.
Of course not, you can use any room response measurement mechanism that you fancy!

One can of course debate how good or bad they are compared to REW ...
But to say only REW can do this is akin to saying that you can drive from Delhi to Mumbai only in a Ford and not in a Suzuki or a BMW :)
 

Pepperjack

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So, I just learned about this app from this thread. I have the old x3300w but it looks like it should work. I am unclear on what equipment I need? How does one download the app and then also get the sound to test it to the Denon via either iPad or iPhone? Also, I will try to go back and reread to understand how best to use the app but if anyone can link to a good explanation of how to use it to improve over the built in method I would appreciate it.
 

superczar

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So, I just learned about this app from this thread. I have the old x3300w but it looks like it should work. I am unclear on what equipment I need? How does one download the app and then also get the sound to test it to the Denon via either iPad or iPhone? Also, I will try to go back and reread to understand how best to use the app but if anyone can link to a good explanation of how to use it to improve over the built in method I would appreciate it.
For starters, The general consensus seems to be that if you have capable speakers, you are better off running a measurement session from your phone/ipad- edit the audyssey frequency cutoff to 500hz or thereabouts for the channels that have good speakers - and call it a day!

For example, I set the correction threshold to below sub cutoff for fronts (capable L/R), 500hz for center (mid tier speakers) and left it at default (20000 hz) for my cheap surrounds / atmos
 

Dj7675

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So, I just learned about this app from this thread. I have the old x3300w but it looks like it should work. I am unclear on what equipment I need? How does one download the app and then also get the sound to test it to the Denon via either iPad or iPhone? Also, I will try to go back and reread to understand how best to use the app but if anyone can link to a good explanation of how to use it to improve over the built in method I would appreciate it.
I was confused about the Audyssey app when it first came out... a couple of general things:
-With the app the measurements are started from the app and not the receiver.
-You still use your receivers included audyssey mic
-After you complete the measurements it will save on your device. Save this one and make copies of this measurement and make changes to the copies. This way you can make all of the different changes and revert back/change your settings
-After the measurements are complete, you then upload it to your receiver. It takes minute or two to upload
-Turn off midrange compensation (or at least listen with it both ways)
-You can change the frequencies Audyssey corrects. For sure do somewhere between 300-800 and lower. You may or may not have good results higher But definitely worth trying different eq cut off points.
-Don’t settle for the default slope of the room curve. I would encourage you to have some downward tilt and some sub boost. I tend to like a 3-4db increase from 200 to 20. Whatever amount of increase you do in your sub curve, do the same amount in your sub(s) level after you upload your curve.
 
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KEW

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@amirm ,Thanks for this review! It gives reassurance that the app is, indeed, a "game-changer" for Audyssey!
I was reading through it (for the third time) and had an observation.

The topic is Audyssey Dynamic EQ which you liked, but turned off. From a testing standpoint you don't want anything confounding your tests so it definitely should be off.
However, at the same time, it occurs to me - Dynamic EQ was off, but the custom curve boosting bass effectively turned Dynamic EQ back on!
It would be interesting to see how REW measurements of your room with only the BBC dip removed and Dynamic EQ on would compare vs the final measurements with the custom curve.
Dynamic EQ is fundamentally a sophisticated implementation of the "Loudness contours" to compensate for how our perception of loudness changes for different frequencies at different loudnesses. The biggest thing it does is add bass so the sound does not get "thin" as the volume goes down from reference (where, to my understanding, it was mixed and optimized). The sophistication is that it is continuously variable as the volume changes so, ideally, if you had 3 listening levels (say for occasionally blasting, normal listening, and late night listening), the perceived balance across frequencies would be maintained!
I hope, if you get another D/M unit, you might explore Dynamic EQ a bit! It has a strong following on the forums!
 
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Jon AA

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OK, I've had a lot of requests for the procedure I'm using to use XT32 as "Speaker Correction" at high frequencies without all the mistakes "Room Correction" can cause at high frequencies when based upon steady state in-room measurements at the listening position (which is basically what Audyssey does). I do plan on doing a more formal write-up on the procedure explaining the science behind why one would want to do something like this with references, etc, that would hopefully answer many questions ahead of time, but that may be a while. I want to spend more time experimenting, refining the process and verifying some things. But I know people are anxious to try it so here are the Cliff's Notes of the process to get people started. So this is more of a "leading the horses to water" rather than an all encompassing idiot-proof guide.

1) Make sure you have a good Auydssey calibration measurement-wise (mic placement was good, individual measurements in Ratbuddy look reasonable, speaker distances, etc, are where they should be). You won't want to be starting from scratch because you think one of your measurements in the original Audyssey file may have been messed up.

2) Measure your speakers. If you can drag them and your AVR outside, that's great, middle of a big room OK, but as-placed in the room is probably the most practical for most people. Keep in mind, as boundaries get closer, the less you can trust data at lower frequencies. Even in the middle of a large room, the floor bounce will wreak havoc on your measurements, so don't even think about doing anything in the lower midrange with these measurements unless you can do it outside with the speaker up in the air.

Make sure you're using a calibrated mic with the correct calibration file. For this I use the 0 degree file with the mic pointed at the tweeter. Use a tape measure to accurately place the mic.

For most speakers, I think 1 meter on axis with the tweeter is probably the best place to take measurements for high frequencies. With larger towers, farther measurements may be advisable but this makes it more difficult to eliminate reflections from the measurements. You want to use gated measurements to eliminate reflections as much as possible. You can look at your impulse response to give you an idea of where the large reflections are coming into the signal, but even the smaller reflections will influence the results somewhat. This is an area where experimentation and using some judgement comes into play. Try different measurement techniques--distances and gating lengths--and compare them until you arrive at a technique you're comfortable with (feel you can trust the measurements--they're repeatable!) in the frequency range you want to fix.

I've ended up using 1m distance and 4ms gating as a standard. I haven't used REW for this in a while, but with Omnimic here are the results you get with 4ms gating:

1591663711393.png


The pure gated measurement (in black) in Omnimic as you can see flat out stops at 600 Hz, and looses resolution above that for a while (which is why outdoor measurements with longer gating times are needed to actually evaluate a speaker full range). The brown line is "blended mode" which blends the gated measurements at high frequencies with steady-state measurements at lower frequencies. That's the one I use as I think the increased resolution in the 800-1200 Hz range is helpfull and they're both basically identical above that.

Once you've figured out a technique you want to use, it's time to take measurements for real. While a single on-axis measurement is OK to get you started quickly if you just want to test the process and will basically give you the same results with a really, really good speaker, in most cases you're going to want to do a listening window measurement. Many speakers with horns and most coaxial speakers will have anomalies exactly on-axis that disappear in the listening window. Naturally, you don't want to correct those.

For various reasons, I think the full CEA 2034 listening window is a bit bigger than necessary for the purpose of calibrating the direct sound, so I typically do a smaller "calibrating window"--basically on-axis, up/down 5 degrees, left/right 10 degrees. But that's entirely up to you to do what you feel is best for a particular speaker.

Note, for all measurements, make sure DEQ is OFF! DEQ can be great set to preference when listening, but you don't want it on when you're measuring for calibrations.

The first measurement you want to take, is one with Audyssey switched OFF. Do this only after calibrating though, so that it's level is the same as with it on. Then do the same with Audyssey On. I don't think it really matters when doing this method whether you pick Ref Rolloff #1 or #2, I got in the habit long ago when trying to draw new curves of using Rolloff #2 because it's more linear at the top end. But whatever you pick, stick with it.

3) Calibrate! Once you've taken the measurements, you've done the hard part. Now you can finish up at your computer.

First look at the curve with Audyssey off to see what your speaker naturally does and make some decisions on how to fix it.

1591663736015.png


There's an example (different speaker than the above BTW). The first thing you need to decide is your target. I'd suggest for most speakers simply aiming at a flat response is going to give the results that will be preferred by most people (we'll talk about variations later). If aiming for a flat line, you need to decide where to put it.

For this speaker I decided since it has a nice flat and smooth area from about 1100 to 2000 Hz that averages exactly 80 db, that would be the target.

Unfortunately, with Audyssey at high frequencies, it's all or nothing. If you have a speaker that measures perfectly flat with just one flaw (bump or dip), you can't just fix that. It's all or nothing. So while the curve above with Audyssey off is informative about what to do, you can't fix it. You can only fix the Reference curve. With such a speaker that will likely mean "undoing" what Audyssey did instead of simply fixing the one spot.

So, add the reference curve measurement:

1591663758974.png


Here, the red line is the Reference curve measurement.

First off, you can see how Audyssey can screw up a pretty good speaker at high frequencies. This is a controlled directivity speaker which doesn't have excessive room reflections, and you can see by aiming for a flat in-room steady state response for most of the curve, it ends up boosting the upper midrange and most of the treble well above flat in the direct sound that will be headed to your ears. That makes the speaker sound excessively bright. One would be much better off limiting the correction of this speaker to bass frequencies than correcting full range with the standard reference curve.

So for this speaker, most of the deviation from the reference curve you type into Ratbuddy will be fixing what Audyssey screwed up.

To identify the new control points, first zoom in on the upper frequencies such that you make the Reference measurement really ugly. I find it easiest to literally print it out and draw your target line on there for reference. Simply put a dot at each "inflection point" along the curve:

1591663787517.png


(I ended up deleting the bottom few points from that out of the file.) As you can see that is zoomed in such that each line is only 1 db so it looks really bad, but it allows you to be precise in the adjustments needed.

That may look a bit scary--I plan on doing more experiments with applying a little bit of smoothing and using fewer control points. Most of those small deviations won't be audible so there is probably a point of diminishing returns so maybe you don't need to add so many points. Be careful of smoothing though--it can cause undercorrection of the bumps and dips. But if you want to get a super flat curve, this will do it for you. Frankly, I find it impressive XT32 is able to fix such small deviations, even if they're too small to be audible. The first time or two you try it you may want to only try a few points to make sure you're doing everything correctly.

It is my understanding, that there really isn't a downside to adding more points with Audyssey as there may be with adding a bunch of PEQs with other types of filters and processing. XT32 uses more than 10,000 control points to make up the reference curve. So rearranging 5 of them instead of 50 doesn't mean any reduction of processing of the signal (making it more "pure"). Like I said, with this software it's all or nothing, so you might as well do a complete job if you've made it this far.

For each dot location, simply measure the frequency and how far it needs to go to get to your correction line and enter that as a control point in Ratbuddy.

If you do something like the above, you'll end up with a stack of control points as shown here in Ratbuddy:

1591663822984.png


Results like this are possible:

1591663868957.png


This shows the Audyssey off in brown, on with the above corrections in black.

Here's the same graph zoomed in:

RF4hDir1mZoom.jpg


As you can see, the corrected response is within about +/- 1/2 db from 1100-15KHz. All those graphs have no smoothing at all. Note where the horn "falls off" at the very top end, no effort was made to boost that all the way flat.

The best thing about doing this at high frequencies, is that EQ actually works! At low frequencies, many deviations are caused by room modes, SBIR effects, etc. Some of those can't be fixed by EQ at all, and for some it'll only partially help which can lead to frustration when things don't respond as you tell them to. But at high frequencies, if you follow the above method, Audyssey pretty much does exactly what you tell it--and will nail it on the first try!

There are exceptions though--as noted before, acoustical interferences caused by a bad horn/waveguide (or even a good one above a certain frequency), coaxial speakers and various design flaws of more conventional speakers, etc, may not react well or at all to EQ. If you find a spot in the response that doesn't correct properly, and you've added the control point and its correction properly, it's probably best to just leave it. Throwing gain at something like that isn't going to fix it.

That brings us to other reasons to deviate from a flat line. If your speaker's natural response has a huge dip or massive rolloff at the top end, you may think twice about trying to flatten those things all the way out. If it's bad enough Audyssey may limit you anyway, but you may not want to push them that far, particularly for a speaker with dome tweeters which may have limited headroom. I don't think a few db of boost is the end of the world (Audyssey will surely do it all by itself) as long as you're mindful you will be eating into the speaker's headroom and distortion may become audible a bit sooner. If you know you often listen to the speakers close to the limits of their capabilities, especially to the point of hearing distortion, you want to be really careful about not boosting much if at all. Keep in mind, the proper way to judge how much you're boosting is not the number you put into Ratbuddy, because that's relative to the Reference Curve. Compare the final correction to the response with Audyssey Off to see how much you're actually "boosting."

Other reasons to deviate from the flat line are as simple as personal preference. You may like more of a rolloff at the top end. If so, that's fine--just draw it in and correct the dots to that line instead. You may want a more "laid back" sound in which case you could put a bit of a declining slope into the curve. You may like the "show winning detail!!!!" of a speaker with a big rise the last couple of octaves. That's fine too, the goal is to get the sound you like. This amounts to the second portion of what Kevin Voecks describes in their "Anechoic EQ" where you're using smoother tone-control type adjustments to taste after fixing the "flaws" of the speaker (smoothing out the resonances) with quasi-anechoic data.

The research does tend to point to most people preferring flat direct sound in this frequency range, so that's where I recommend most people start for most speakers. It's a very sensible target that should sound quite good to everybody.

Keep in mind, this does not mean your steady-state in-room measurements will be flat. They should not. They will have a downward slope to them.

This can be clearly seen by in-room measurements of the above result:

1591663898219.png


In a larger room (with a longer listening distance) the slope will be more, with a speaker that beams at higher frequencies there will be more of a rolloff, etc, but that's OK.

And if the in-room measurements aren't perfectly linear, and they probably won't be with most speakers, that doesn't mean you did anything wrong. That's due to your speaker's directivity index not being linear. That's OK--it's the best you're going to get out of this speaker because you can't fix the directivity issue with EQ. And now you know, if you flatten out the in-room curve with that speaker, you'll be screwing up the direct sound. The direct sound is generally the most important. The above speaker has exceptionally well controlled constant directivity which is why it remains linear in the in-room measurements.

Something else to check after you're done with in-room (steady state at the MLP) is to make sure the high frequency portion blends smoothly with the midrange. If you choose your "target line" poorly, you may see a sort of "step" where the high frequency EQ kicks in if you corrected to a line that is too high or too low. In this case you can simply add or subtract 1 db or whatever the error looks like from all the high frequency control points. Your in-room curve should smoothly go from the point you left the reference curve to high frequencies.

A couple more notes:

This operation is separate from what you do in the bass region. In the bass region, you want to correct the speakers and the room together with steady state in-room measurements--Audyssey does this pretty well when used as intended. Whether you leave the bass flat, add in a "Harman preferred" rise at the bottom, etc, is up your preference. You can try different things on the bass while leaving your high frequency EQ intact by using different copies of the file you made. You can add control points in Ratbuddy out of order. I've found it's a good idea to save the file, open it and save it again before trying to use it though (sometimes it seems to take an iteration or two of that before puts the points in the correct order).

That should be enough to get you up and running. Man, if this was the "Cliff's Notes" version, the full version explaining all the theory and giving references, etc, is really going to take a while!
 

BDWoody

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That should be enough to get you up and running. Man, if this was the "Cliff's Notes" version, the full version explaining all the theory and giving references, etc, is really going to take a while!

Wow...

Thank you.
 

rxp

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Interesting review - I revisited XT32 after posting on EQing my LS50's. I found a nice compromise without driving myself crazy.

Big thing since I last tried specifying a target curve is no doable via a Windows application. I tried to implement an 8db harman curve/slope on it but didn't have much success. It boosted the bass fine but it wouldn't attenuate the treble. I could have gone in to faf around with the 20,000hz attenuation but it's such a long process.

The easiest solution I found after adding the 8db slope in Ratbussy was to limit correction to 600hz where I had all sorts of peaks/nulls that it corrected nicely. That way my room nicely took care of the treble - if I wanted a steeper treble roll off I added Cinema EQ. See attached plots. The orange is full range, the others are 600hz limit

Seriously AVR manufactures need to just give us a simple Parametric EQ. I'd like XT32 to sort bass out but let me control the rest with a proper parametric EQ. Even tone controls would be an improvement.
 

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rxp

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Just found this video from Audioholics that has very good suggestions and critiques on the single mic measurement system and filters used by both DIrac and Audssey. I especially liked the demonstration on how a flat response from a mic, isn't a flat response to our ears and the problems with microphones pointed at 90 degrees
 

Noah Katz

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You all need to listen to me. Measurements can be a huge trap in acoustics. The proof is in the pudding anyway with post EQ sounding excellent.


Is this a recent change in philosophy?

Because that certainly isn't the impression given by your emphasis on the importance of SINAD in AVP/AVR tests.
 

Matt S

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Is this a recent change in philosophy?

Because that certainly isn't the impression given by your emphasis on the importance of SINAD in AVP/AVR tests.

Measurements are important of course but I doubt, blind tested, anyone could hear the difference between one of the devices with the best measurements vs one two thirds of the way down the list.

Our ears cannot detect such tiny amounts of distortion and the majority of the devices tested have more than enough dynamic range.

Knowing you have a piece of well engineered equipment which measures well is obviously good to know and have in the back of your mind whilst listening.

Room EQ is way, way more important IMO.
 

flaviowolff

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I believe the flat lifeless default curve audyssey uses is intentional, as to force people into using Dynamic EQ to get a listenable system
 
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