• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details.

Audiophile Ethernet Cat8 Cable

Don Hills

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
611
Likes
264
Location
Wellington, New Zealand
#21
...I would love to know how their cable, with no active circuitry built in, is able to correct any errors if they existed in the first place? ...
If you read their claim clearly, they don't actually say that. They just hope you'll think it. It's a mixture of truth and snake oil.
"Category 7 cabling was created to satisfy the demands of 10 Gigabit Ethernet.
True.
According to Wireworld, “Even though most media networks now run below that speed, cables that support higher speeds have been found to improve the quality of audio and video streaming.
There's the snake oil, carefully mixed with truth to make it more palatable.
Note the "According to Wireworld", which serves the dual purpose of appealing to authority and distancing the reviewer from a statement he suspects is less than accurate.
Those improvements are possible because streamed signals suffer from data errors that cannot be repaired by the error correction systems that preserve file transfers.
Partially true, "streamed signals can suffer from..."
The proposed standard for future networks is Category 8, which extends network speeds to the staggering rate of 40 Gigabits per second.”
True, though irrelevant.
 

fas42

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,818
Likes
139
Location
Australia
#22
Something I saved some time back (not written by me):

...

If there is an effect, it is the same as for CD, since all optical media work in the same fashion. Moreover, hard-disks work in essentially the same way too. So, if there is a problem it should affect all systems, and yet it is common here to see claims that digital music played from hard-disk somehow magically works, and yet CD is subject to all kinds of issues. (Let's ignore known bad implementation issues here, and consider only well-designed CD players/transports.)

- Black Elk, forums.stevehoffman.tv, Jan 11th, 2013
Let's not ignore "bad implementation issues", and "better players mitigate ... coupling the DAC clock to the jittery clock recovered from the disc, or noise from the laser servos finding a way into the output stage, etc., etc" ... and everything falls into place ... ;)

As I said before, I have no issues with digital data - though, having worked in the computer industry for 30 years, let me tell you that such is a nightmare world - for other reasons :D. But unless someone has tested the isolation of the digital and mechanical workings from the analogue side, and inserted those findings on the spec sheet - I might as well stick my finger in the breeze to assess "how good it is".

As perhaps my best Exhibit A, I present our top of the line Yamaha electronic keyboard, built in the early 90's. The source is read only memory, but the acoustic piano sound is truly awful on switch-on. Absolutely nothing is faulty, it was this way from new - and after 3 days of the analogue side settling down, that same source sounds like, well, an acoustic piano! I suspect the Yamaha engineers weren't totally incompetent ;), but did the best within the constraints of the technology of the time, and the costs of getting product out there. Like all the companies ...
 

Don Hills

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
611
Likes
264
Location
Wellington, New Zealand
#23
Let's not ignore "bad implementation issues", and "better players mitigate ... coupling the DAC clock to the jittery clock recovered from the disc, or noise from the laser servos finding a way into the output stage, etc., etc" ... and everything falls into place ... ;)
We're still woefully short of actual measurements showing the effects exist at levels high enough to have a chance of being audible.
And hopefully anyone with "audiophile" pretensions would have a "better player".

... unless someone has tested the isolation of the digital and mechanical workings from the analogue side, and inserted those findings on the spec sheet - I might as well stick my finger in the breeze to assess "how good it is".
My point exactly - measurements, or it didn't happen.

As perhaps my best Exhibit A, I present our top of the line Yamaha electronic keyboard, built in the early 90's. The source is read only memory, but the acoustic piano sound is truly awful on switch-on. Absolutely nothing is faulty, it was this way from new - and after 3 days of the analogue side settling down, that same source sounds like, well, an acoustic piano! I suspect the Yamaha engineers weren't totally incompetent ;), but did the best within the constraints of the technology of the time, and the costs of getting product out there. Like all the companies ...
I'm sure it is within your sphere of competence to record the output of the keyboard when just switched on and again when it's been on for 3 days so we can hear for ourselves. If it's as bad as you say, it'll be a valuable learning experience for those of us who lack your listening skills.
 

fas42

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,818
Likes
139
Location
Australia
#24
I'm sure it is within your sphere of competence to record the output of the keyboard when just switched on and again when it's been on for 3 days so we can hear for ourselves. If it's as bad as you say, it'll be a valuable learning experience for those of us who lack your listening skills.
I've been threatening myself for ages to do this - as an appetiser, here is someone foolin' around with the very same beast - catch the impressive piano sound ... !!

 

RayDunzl

Major Contributor
Central Scrutinizer
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
7,072
Likes
3,400
Location
Riverview, FL
#25
 

Thomas savage

Power hungry desperado
Moderator
The Watchman
Patreon Donor
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
7,195
Likes
4,941
Location
uk, taunton
#26
So, the Ethernet cable and contributing switches etc don't corrupt the integrity of the actual data being transferred but is it possible other nasties travel along these cables that might then infect the partnering audio equipment in some real measurable way?
 

fas42

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,818
Likes
139
Location
Australia
#27
So, the Ethernet cable and contributing switches etc don't corrupt the integrity of the actual data being transferred but is it possible other nasties travel along these cables that might then infect the partnering audio equipment in some real measurable way?
Thomas, something along those lines could be the case - the more resolving the rig becomes the easier it is to hear anomalies caused by electrical signals, and circuits not being textbook in their behaviour - it's an ongoing detective story ...
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
20,661
Likes
25,597
Location
Seattle Area
#28
So, the Ethernet cable and contributing switches etc don't corrupt the integrity of the actual data being transferred but is it possible other nasties travel along these cables that might then infect the partnering audio equipment in some real measurable way?
That remains the only possibility. That is noise is picked up by the cable and keeps traveling through the Ethernet interface and eventually to the DAC. Archmiago tested this with various Ethernet cables but found no difference whatsoever: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/02/measurements-ethernet-cables-and-audio.html

I suspect that is the final answer. There are a ton of isolation layers here making the cable non-consequential.
 

Thomas savage

Power hungry desperado
Moderator
The Watchman
Patreon Donor
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
7,195
Likes
4,941
Location
uk, taunton
#29
So much in high end audio is purely 'accidemic ' improvements or countermeasures that seem only to have a effect on the price of the product, ego of those who buy them and believe they have the 'best'.

In the absence of actual measured difference we don't even have the 'accidemic ' possibility of improved performance in this case.

Or so it would seem by what's been presented here.
 

fas42

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,818
Likes
139
Location
Australia
#30
Do you listen to those different parts of the CD player or just what comes out of its audio connection in the back?
The CD player is a black box, which should always work "perfectly". The only thing that matters in the context of audio is whether its behaviour is invariant under all conditions; as far as whether the system, using that audio connection, always "behaves".

So, as a mental exercise imagine using the finest headphones to monitor the CD's contribution to the quality, and have someone behind your back plug a heavy duty arc welder into the socket next to where the CD player gets its power, and fire up the welder in all its glory, adjacent to the player in operation. Do you think you could detect whether the welder is on, or off, just by listening carefully to the music? Too severe? OK, move the welder to the next room ... or, perhaps to the furthest point in the house - how about, to next door, in a room some 10's of feet away ... etc, etc ...

At what point will, or should, that welder "disappear"?
 

RayDunzl

Major Contributor
Central Scrutinizer
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
7,072
Likes
3,400
Location
Riverview, FL
#31
At what point will, or should, that welder "disappear"?
Step one would be to prove (not think) it makes a difference at all, instead of jumping right to "see when the effect disappears".

Even that is assuming, of course, that it might be necessary to arc weld and critically listen to headphones simultaneously.
 
Last edited:

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
20,661
Likes
25,597
Location
Seattle Area
#32
The CD player is a black box, which should always work "perfectly". The only thing that matters in the context of audio is whether its behaviour is invariant under all conditions; as far as whether the system, using that audio connection, always "behaves".
Then why did you ask if different parts of the CD player change???
 

fas42

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,818
Likes
139
Location
Australia
#33
Step one would be to prove it makes a difference at all, not "see when the effect disappears".
Considering that an arc welder is the one of the most "aggressive" generators of electrical interference commonly available I would be pretty amazed if it didn't create some audible artifacts. Personally, I just use the holding of a light switch at the point where it arcs across the contacts - a cacophony of of buzzing and crackling emerges from the speakers of a normal system, as the interference races straight through to the output stage of the amp.
 

fas42

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,818
Likes
139
Location
Australia
#34
Then why did you ask if different parts of the CD player change???
You're responding to me saying

So you're suggesting that on a typical consumer grade CD transport that the spectrum of noise measured in different parts of the component will always be identical, irrespective?
which is my reply to Don querying whether noise differences would be measurable on say, voltage rails. If you're assuming that the engineering on the audio side was absolutely superb, and that no matter what noise elements were occurring in non-audio areas that the audio signal was 100% impervious to such artifacts then, yes, there won't any issues.
 

Blumlein 88

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
6,512
Likes
6,242
#35
Odd things can happen. For instance in my system one of my light switches is worn and arcs obviously as in you see it. I hear absolutely nothing come out of the speakers with the gear on. I had a different amp years back where that wasn't the case. You heard the arc as a pop and noise. You heard the fridge in the kitchen cycle on and off. Never did figure that one out. All other gear has been impervious.

Now going back more years, way back. I had a Sonographe CD player. Outside on the far corner of the house was a low pressure sodium light on a pole. Neighbor's kids shot the outer glass envelope of the sodium bulb with a BB gun. The inner part still came on glowing faintly. Somehow this caused an interference that would make the CD player skip strangely. It would play 4 seconds and skip backward 3 seconds. Repeating endlessly. It would advance playing a CD in this halting fashion. Not knowing this I thought the player kaput (technical term for quit working). The following day when I arrived home I decided to see why. It worked fine. Puzzled I began listening to music. As darkness fell the skipping returned. I had seen the damaged sodium light the night before. Yet it still didn't click. One of those aha moments along with how can that be dawned on me the next day. When I arrived home I waited for darkness. The Sonographe was skipping, I turned off power to that sodium light which allowed the player to work perfectly fine. I tried it several times. I replaced the bulb in the outdoor light and all was well. These weren't even on the same circuits together.

Of course I still don't believe the weak emanations from computer gear causes trouble for DACs and such. Having measured a few I have not seen an indication of it. It could happen, like whatever weird thing was going on with that light. Usually people are letting their minds create something from nothing.
 

fas42

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,818
Likes
139
Location
Australia
#36
Interesting stories, Dennis. Every bit of kit, every system will be different. Personally, I have a battle always with mobile phones - not in hearing echos of the mutterings of the phone with the local tower, but a general degradation of quality. Comparable to inserting some cloth in front of tweeter, the sound loses its sparkle, goes grey and dull to a certain degree.
 

Thomas savage

Power hungry desperado
Moderator
The Watchman
Patreon Donor
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
7,195
Likes
4,941
Location
uk, taunton
#37
My old krell 20il CDP used to get thrown out when the fridge freezer kicked in, there would be a off and on click from it ( the CDP ) stopping play back momentarily..

I guess some kind of protection circuit was kicking in.. Might be wrong though.

Bugger all to do with Ethernet cables being the latest thing to stimulate the minds of neurotic audiophiles though .
 

Speedskater

Active Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2016
Messages
282
Likes
132
Location
Cleveland, Ohio USA
#38
Thomas, something along those lines could be the case - the more resolving the rig becomes the easier it is to hear anomalies caused by electrical signals, and circuits not being textbook in their behaviour - it's an ongoing detective story ...
Or not!
At the classical music radio station (WCLV), we received a report of a background hum/buzz on the host's microphone. We listened on the station's best system nothing. When I went home, I listened on my hi-fi system nothing. Next morning the clock radio turned on and there was the buzz.
 

fas42

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,818
Likes
139
Location
Australia
#39
Nice bit of detective work there ...
 

Jinjuku

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Patreon Donor
Joined
Feb 28, 2016
Messages
625
Likes
255
#40
Whether there are errors or not is irrelevant. What counts is how much circuit activity is required to correct the errors - a poor CD transport trying to read a dodgy disk is creating an "electrical storm" in the circuits, reading the media and fixing the errors - all the digital circuitry following is 100% happy with the corrected and error free data, but analogue parts in the region "hear" noise blasting away, and if not engineered robustly enough cause a subtle degradation of quality of the sound. That's what happening with a huge array of these tweaks and weirdo things, from personal experience this is where close attention to detail matters ...
So if I feed my ADC from my DC-1 with a 315 foot Ethernet cable that is $0.30 a foot and a $330 WireWorld that is 12 foot you will be able to tell me during your listening of the track when I made the change in cable?
 

Similar threads

Top Bottom