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Deaf "anti-audiophile" looking to fix a nonexistant problem... or something.

Octopuss

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Jan 14, 2025
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Hi.
I hate reddit and ended up on this forum on a few occasions in past when I was looking some stuff up, so I figured this might be a good place to ask.
There are some problems though:
1) I am an anti-audiophile, or in other words you could say I don't care. I don't care about standards, decibels, how many hertz something has or whatever, I don't know what impedance is etc. I am simply someone who wants good setup for listening to music and playing games on the PC.
2) I don't know what I want. I think I have an idea what I might be looking for, but I don't know shit, so I'm hoping to get some answers.
3) I can't tell ANY difference between 128kbit mp3 and a FLAC. I seriously can't. I am not sure if I tried with my current speakers, but I think I did. I could hear a ton of difference when I upgraded from previous small speakers (Canton Chrono 502-something I think) to what I have now though, and I believe the speakers make up for 90% of all the sound quality (assuming properly powerful amp).

Anyway, this is my setup:
- A regular PC which had Sound Blaster X AE-5 sound card in it for several years until last week when I was experimenting with stuff and tried the onboard audio, realizing they sounded absolutely identical to me, so I removed the card to make room in the case.
- an integrated amp connected via RCA cable
- stereo speakers
It's that simple, there is nothing more to it and never will be. I don't use any other inputs and I don't use headphones. That might hypothetically make any upgrades less expensive if whatever I want exists I guess.

Both the amp and the speakers are local products and thus you most likely can't assess their quality in any way, however I can put the specs here as a reference:
Výkon 2x110W RMS 8ohm,THD < 0.006%, 20Hz-20kHz

2x170W RMS 4ohm,THD < 0.008%, 20Hz-20kHz

Skreslenie THD+N
(BW 80kHz) max. 0.006 / 110W / 8 ohm (20Hz –20kHz)
typ.0.001% / 1kHz , 0.004% / 10kHz
max. 0.008% /170W / 4ohm (20Hz – 20kHz)
typ. 0.002% /1kHz , 0.005% /10kHz

Kmitoč. rozsah 20Hz-20kHz +0 dB –0,1dB
5Hz-120kHz +0-3dB

Skreslenie IMD max. 0.001% pre 100W/8ohm (60 Hz/4 –20kHz, 4:1)

Rýchlosť prebehu SR 50V / us /8ohm

Presluchy do 1kHz > -100 dB, 10kHz -85dB, 20kHz -80dB

Damping faktor 500 / 1kHz / 8ohm

Odstup S/N -105 dB /20Hz-20kHz/ ref. P nom.

DC offset typ.<5mV

Súbeh regulácie < 0.05 dB v rozsahu 0 až –90dB

Ochrany oneskorené pripojenie výstupov , odpojenie výstupov
pri poruche ,skrat , tepelná , soft štart

Vstupy 5 x Line , 0,6V pre P nom

Výstupy 1 x Tape Out
1 x PreAmp Out , regulovaný

Konektory signálové vstupy a výstupy – RCA
výstupy pre repro 2x svorky pre každý kanál

Rozmery 443 x 88 x 370 mm, hmotnosť cca 14 kg

Napätie Un 230 V ~ ,50 –60 Hz
The amp is no longer being manufactured so best I could was google up a post on some forums with specs taken out of the now defunct website. It's in slovak but you can probably make something out of it.

The speakers: http://www.vmaudio.cz/clanky_pokracovani/vma_3.php#produkt
(this is in czech for a change, but the parameters are most likely self-explanatory)


This setup works perfectly fine for me, with the exception of one annoyance: noise. Two kinds of, actually:
1) Once in a while there is some kind of random electrical interference in the grid and it's making the speakers hum rather loudly and annoyingly. We had all the wiring in the house (including all the breaker boxes and basically the entire installation) redone from scratch last year and it didn't go away, so I think it's coming from the outside. An UPS has no effect on it btw.
2) When I ramp the amp volume up to ridiculous levels (not playing anything of course, that would make the windows break), there is pretty loud constant noise. As a bonus, when I move the mouse, I can hear high-pitched noise. Again, this 2nd point is not a real pronlem, because it's completely inaudible during normal volume levels, but the fact it's there is annoying me out of general principle and I want to (try to) make it go away. As a side note, when I connected this thing between the PC and the amp, the noise disappeared, but I have no idea if it has any effect on sound quality, and it didn't really fix the root cause in my eyes, so I didn't keep it.

The first problem is likely not something I can do anything about, and I gave up trying to troubleshoot the other one, because the noise is exactly the same with the standalone Sound Blaster card as with the onboard chip, and changing various components like PSU (I only use quality ones, Seasonic units rated gold and above), motherboard etc. made no difference at all, and bypassing the UPS didn't change anything either. I am really thinking this is normal, and every PC is generating this kind of noise.

The only hightly theoretical solution I could think of was buying Schiit's Bifrost 2 with their claimed perfectly shielded Venison USB.
Do you think it could work?

The other possibility is replacing the entire amp with one that has toslink input, but that is probably even more expensive than the Bifrost, plus upon a quick google search it seems that integrated amps are _relatively_ uncommon (in the higher end audio ecosystem), and one with such power rating that could feed my speakers well either doesn't exist or would cost me a kidney or 3. The manufacturer says the absolute minimum is an amp that does 150W@4 ohms (whatever that means, physics, ugh, stay away from me...), ideally 200W.
I also heard something about balanced cables, but I have no idea if that really fixes intereferences. I'd need a different amp for that anyway.


I am open to ideas, but please speak idiot to me (and keep in mind I am a regular user who strongly believes a regular copper wire of reasonable thickness is just as good speaker connection as a /directional!!/ silver cable for $2000/metre)
 
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The noise issues might be solved by using an external USB DAC:
Well reviewed and inexpensive.
 
The noise issues might be solved by using an external USB DAC:
Well reviewed and inexpensive.
Well yes, that's why I've been eyeing the Bifrost 2 - and solely for its alleged shielded (in whatever way it is used) USB implementation.

However!!
I have just remembered I did a very unscientific test a while ago, trying to figure out whether an expensive DAC could sound any better/different to me than the Sound Blaster card, so I went to one of the large local eshops, and ordered the most expensive USB DAC I could find. It was Topping D-something. I have no idea what model. This was a few years ago, a small number of few.
I couldn't hear one bit of a difference, but the noise was exactly the same :( So it is something generated by the PC, and is transferred by a RCA cable and USB both.
 
I connected this thing between the PC and the amp, the noise disappeared,
That thing fixed a ground loop. Since your integrated amp only has RCA inputs something like that is your cheapest option. If you get a DAC you need to make sure it has isolation the Topping you used probably didn't. You can use something like This between your computer and DAC to make sure if you decide it's worth it. I would probably look for RCA Ground loop isolation . Did you have this problem with the Soundblaster card you removed?
 
The thing I linked (there is a language switch somewhere btw but I guess that's not needed) looks like the same thing you did, no? Only they look different.
Like I wrote, I have no idea how does it work so I was suspicious, plus I wanted to make the cause of the noise to go away, which I'm not sure is possible at this point...
When I tried that... thing...., I was still using the Sound Blaster. Like I wrote, the card or onboard audio, same noise, no difference.

By isolation you mean what exactly? It has its own power connector, that is isolated by design, isn't it? Or did you mean special circuitry, such as what the Bifrost says it has?

What's a ground loop anyway?

edit: Perhaps the noise really is a normal thing with computers:
 
Install the Sound Blaster X AE-5 again, use the optical out on that card, get a cheap-ish DAC with optical in (the SMSL SU-1 works fine) and the cheapest S/PDIF cable you can find. Problem solved. No more hum, no more high-pitched whine when moving the mouse. Ground loop isolators often work, optical cables (-> no ground connection at all between your devices) always work.
 
Are you suggesting I go DAC-DAC-amp? That makes no sense even to my clueless head :D

edit: You could argue I wouldn't be able to hear any difference considering what I initially wrote about my ears and you would most likely be correct, but there is a difference between not being able to tell a difference and doing something that is seriously conceptually wrong, hah.
 
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He is saying go with a plastic optical out of the PC - no metal, breaks continuity of any electrical hum issues.

The PC in my warehouse has a 3.5mm analog out only, and it induced a hum. I went so far as to insert an ADC that sent optical to my DAC, and that removed the hum. Lots of conversion, but no hum. Being that it is a warehouse system, ultimate simplification for best audio quality was not missed.
 
He is saying go with a plastic optical out of the PC - no metal, breaks continuity of any electrical hum issues.

The PC in my warehouse has a 3.5mm analog out only, and it induced a hum. I went so far as to insert an ADC that sent optical to my DAC, and that removed the hum. Lots of conversion, but no hum. Being that it is a warehouse system, ultimate simplification for best audio quality was not missed.
Yes, but what is "feeding" the optical out on the PC's end? Either the DAC on the motherboard or DAC on the dedicated soundcard. Unless I am missing something.
 
As a side note, when I connected this thing between the PC and the amp, the noise disappeared, but I have no idea if it has any effect on sound quality, and it didn't really fix the root cause in my eyes, so I didn't keep it.
It's a transformer which completely electrically-isolates the two circuits.*

With no common ground there will be no ground loop noise (from those connections). A transformer can POTENTIALLY degrade the sound and if it does it's usually frequency response (reducing the bass or treble). But in your case it eliminated the noise so it improved the sound. ;)

An optical connection will also give you electrical isolation and it won't degrade the sound (as long as it's working normally). I's say it did fix the root cause. It didn't eliminate the source of the noise, but there is always electrical noise all-around.

FYI - The professional solution is to use balanced connections which are immune to ground noise and more-immune to noise pick-up in general. Balanced XLR
connections are standard in recording studios, PA systems, radio & TV stations, etc., but they are not that common with home audio. (A lot of people here at ASR do have balanced connections. I do not.) You'd need an interface with balanced outputs and an amplifier with balanced inputs.

...Back in the days of vacuum tubes transformers were the standard-way of making balanced connections.

Fortunately (for most people) ground loop noise is rare...

I am an anti-audiophile, or in other words you could say I don't care. I don't care about standards, decibels, how many hertz something has or whatever, I don't know what impedance is etc. I am simply someone who wants good setup for listening to music and playing games on the PC.
Technically, "audiophile" simply means "audio lover". Usually it's related more toward good audio reproduction than live audio, etc., but most audiophiles also enjoy good live audio.

You are not required to understand the technology or terminology but if can help if you want to improve/upgrade your setup or to identify and solve a problem.

Unfortunately, the "audiophile community" is mostly nuts and for me it has negative connotations. ;) This is one of the few rational-scientific resources.

I can't tell ANY difference between 128kbit mp3 and a FLAC. I seriously can't.
That's a good thing! The main thing is to enjoy your music!

MP3 is lossy compression... Information is thrown-away to make a smaller file. But it's "smart" and it tries to throw away things you can't hear anyway. At higher bitrates less is thrown away so you get bigger files and sometimes better quality. But, if the 128kpbs sounds identical to the uncompressed original you can't get any better than that!

It's often very hard to hear a difference between the MP3 (or MP4, etc.) and the original, especially at higher bitrates, if you can hear a difference at all. A lot of people "put-down" MP3 but they've never done any proper blind ABX tests. Besides the bitrate, if you hear compression artifacts or not mostly depends on the particular music/program material and your ability to hear the particular defects. Headphones often make it easier to hear the "little defects" but unlike a lot of people claim, a high-end system usually doesn't bring-out the defects... Usually everything sounds better on a better system! ;)

I believe the speakers make up for 90% of all the sound quality (assuming properly powerful amp). I believe the speakers make up for 90% of all the sound quality (assuming properly powerful amp).
You are correct!!! (The speakers and room acoustics). A lot of "audiophiles" worry about the wrong things.

What's a ground loop anyway?
It's complicated... It's two or more ground connections (often one is through the AC power-ground) where any electrical noise difference between the multiple grounds shows-up in the signal and it gets amplified. Ground loops don't always result in noise. Let's just call it "ground noise". It's electrical noise getting into the signal through the ground connection(s).


* How a transformer works.
 
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Yes, but what is "feeding" the optical out on the PC's end?
The sound blaster card is feeding the optical out, technically it's not the DAC per se. (it's not converting to analog.) Whatever piece of hardware you want to implicate there, (codec module, OS, whatever) the upshot is that the audio signal will be electrically isolated from the PC, which tends to eliminate unwanted noise from the PC.
 
Of course the other alternative would be skip the Bifrost (which I somehow really like for reasons that don't make sense considering I don't know shit about audio - but I like Schiit; what they do /or more like their story/ gives me good vibes), keep the Sound Blaster (or the damn onboard Realtek ALC S1200A codec which supposedly isn't all that bad), and instead grab an amp with optical in, but then I would need to start looking for something even more niche, or get an amp and a preamp on top of that, which would be even more expensive than just getting a Bifrost.
 
(it's not converting to analog.)
Oh! Well, that makes sense. If it works that way! Which I have no really idea. Common sense doesn't always apply, lol.
But then again... I'd need an integrated amp with ridiculous specs (the speakers I have really are hungry fuckers) and likely a ridiculous price, or pretty expensive power amp and a preamp (which I don't know anything about, it's extra cabling etc....)
 
Of course the other alternative would be skip the Bifrost (which I somehow really like for reasons that don't make sense considering I don't know shit about audio - but I like Schiit; what they do /or more like their story/ gives me good vibes), keep the Sound Blaster (or the damn onboard Realtek ALC S1200A codec which supposedly isn't all that bad), and instead grab an amp with optical in, but then I would need to start looking for something even more niche, or get an amp and a preamp on top of that, which would be even more expensive than just getting a Bifrost.
The Bifrost will work fine, but it's at least 5x what you need to spend here. Any half decent DAC with optical input will work, especially if you're not hung up on small increments of distortion, which it sounds like you're not.

My advice is to look over offerings from JDS, topping, smsl, and Schiit too, get one you feel is cheap enough to buy without feeling nervous but expensive enough to not feel doubtful, and try the optical out from the computer. Pretty much anything from those brands will deliver great sound quality.

If you need a new amp there are a lot of decent and powerful options coming out lately at pretty great prices, Fosi and Ayima have done good work in the past couple years.
 
I guess I could do that, but how do I know the sound via the optical out is not altered (resampled? is that the word?) in any way?
 
However!!
I have just remembered I did a very unscientific test a while ago, trying to figure out whether an expensive DAC could sound any better/different to me than the Sound Blaster card, so I went to one of the large local eshops, and ordered the most expensive USB DAC I could find. It was Topping D-something. I have no idea what model. This was a few years ago, a small number of few.
I couldn't hear one bit of a difference, but the noise was exactly the same :( So it is something generated by the PC, and is transferred by a RCA cable and USB both.
Connect the DAC via Optical and power it from a floating power supply (e.g. USB phone charger) and the PC noise will 100% be gone.

I guess I could do that, but how do I know the sound via the optical out is not altered (resampled? is that the word?) in any way?
Buy a Hifime UR23 and you can run any number of tests to see how transparent the Optical output is, using free software like RMAA, REW, Multitone Analyzer, or Deltawave.

Or just trust that there's no alteration, or if there is, none that could be audible same as 128kbit mp3 vs FLAC.
 
Hold on, the DAC in question was powered by regular 220V cable, not a low powered phone charger. It was only a test few years ago, I don't have it anymore anyway.
 
Hold on, the DAC in question was powered by regular 220V cable, not a low powered phone charger. It was only a test few years ago, I don't have it anymore anyway.
Mains powered DACs can lead to ground loops and resulting mains hum from your speakers.

In contrast, USB powered DACs are cheaper and can avoid this issue.
 
I guess I could do that, but how do I know the sound via the optical out is not altered (resampled? is that the word?) in any way?

Any sound that you get out of the PC running WASAPI Shared has already been resampled by the Windows mixer. If you want to avoid this, and some of us have very specific reasons for avoiding Windows resampling, run WASAPI Exclusive or use ASIO.

Having said that, there is no reason for you to go through the trouble. The major issue isn't the fact that Windows resamples audio without telling you, the issue is that Windows mixer also mixes in system notification bleeps with whatever audio you want to listen to. However, you haven't complained about this so I am assuming it's not a problem.
 
how do I know the sound via the optical out is not altered (resampled? is that the word?) in any way?
As others have said, this is really the least of your worries in this situation. In all likelihood you're already listening to resampled audio all the time and not noticing any difference.
 
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