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Audio Processor needed: Multi channel to 2.0 (Large Speakers)

zakazak

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Hello everyone,

I am running two large speakers (Magnat Zero 8) on a good old Sony ES amplifier (TA-F690ES).
Obviously that old amplifier has no DAC and no way to process and of todays multi channel files.
Everything I play (TV, Games, Music but mostly Movies) will go into my TV (LG OLED CX).
So I need a DAC/Processor that I can connect to my TV (LG OLED CX) via Toslink (optical / SPDIF) to do DAC and sound processing and then pass the 2.0 RCA signal to my amplifier.

I believe I need something that can properly downming multi-channel files to 2.0 (including LFE) as well as doing room correction?

Do you guvs have any recommendation?
All I could find so far were the Emotiva MC-1 or the NAD C658. But both are quite pricey and I am not even sure if they are good for what I need?
What ever you recommend me will replace my old Sony SDP-EP90ES :p

Thanks in advance!
 
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twsecrest

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Sound processing from Headphone surround sound or 5.1 speaker surround sound and converted to 2.0 audio.
That kind of DAC?
Or just set your audio source to 2.0 and just use basic 2.0 stereo, that's easy for a DAC to process.
 

radix

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Anthem and Marantz make AVPs without amps that you could use with the sony, but they are pretty expensive. They also are balanced. most Denon AVRs have pre-out you could use instead. But maybe the Denon 4700 or 6700 amps might be competitive with a 1990s integrated amp?

The NAD C658 is reviewed here, and it was not particularly great. The MC1 was also reviewed here, and also not that great.
 

techsamurai

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Hello everyone,

I am running two large speakers (Magnat Zero 8) on a good old Sony ES amplifier (TA-F690ES).
Obviously that old amplifier has no DAC and no way to process and of todays multi channel files.
Everything I play (TV, Games, Music but mostly Movies) will go into my TV (LG OLED CX).
So I need a DAC/Processor that I can connect to my TV (LG OLED CX) via optical / SPDIF to do DAC and sound processing and then pass the 2.0 RCA signal to my amplifier.

I believe I need something that can properly downming multi-channel files to 2.0 (including LFE) as well as doing room correction?

Do you guvs have any recommendation?
All I could find so far were the Emotiva MC-1 or the NAD C658. But both are quite pricey and I am not even sure if they are good for what I need?
What ever you recommend me will replace my old Sony SDP-EP90ES :p

Thanks in advance!

Yeah, I don't have the answer but there's a definite need for this. I think a lot of people may choose to go audiophile 2.1 or 3.1 in the Atmos age as quality AVRs are getting ridiculously expensive ($4,000+ for a high-end AVR and choices are very few). Optical is not enough as it's compressed and very few stereo receivers take a HDMI signal.

There needs to be something that takes the signal and converts it to 2.1 or 3.1 without costing tons of money with a great DAC. Stereo or 3 channel audiophile HDMI pre/pro.
 

Sancus

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FYI you can't downmix Atmos with the LFE to 2.0. Other things maybe work or don't work, but don't count on consistency and do expect that the experience will not be as good even if it appears to be working on the surface.

It probably doesn't matter that much though because speakers with 25cm woofers aren't going to handle LFE-level HT bass properly anyway.
 

Beershaun

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Why wouldn't a simple Topping e30 work to take spdif in from the TV and output 2ch analog?
 
OP
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zakazak

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Sound processing from Headphone surround sound or 5.1 speaker surround sound and converted to 2.0 audio.
That kind of DAC?
Or just set your audio source to 2.0 and just use basic 2.0 stereo, that's easy for a DAC to process.

Sound processing from 5.1 speaker surround sound (or what ever the multi-channel video file provides and is transferable over optical / SPDIF).

Yeah, I don't have the answer but there's a definite need for this. I think a lot of people may choose to go audiophile 2.1 or 3.1 in the Atmos age as quality AVRs are getting ridiculously expensive ($4,000+ for a high-end AVR and choices are very few). Optical is not enough as it's compressed and very few stereo receivers take a HDMI signal.

There needs to be something that takes the signal and converts it to 2.1 or 3.1 without costing tons of money with a great DAC. Stereo or 3 channel audiophile HDMI pre/pro.

Optical (SPDIF / Toslink) is compressed but it would be enough in my opinion. It supports DD/DTS. What does compressed even mean exactly?
I have troubles with HDMI since I don't want to passthrough the whole HDMI signal (Video + Audio) through anything as this mostly breaks 4K/120Hz or other things.
My TV doesn't have any dedicated HDMI-Audio-Only-Output. So Toslink is the only option.

FYI you can't downmix Atmos with the LFE to 2.0. Other things maybe work or don't work, but don't count on consistency and do expect that the experience will not be as good even if it appears to be working on the surface.

It probably doesn't matter that much though because speakers with 25cm woofers aren't going to handle LFE-level HT bass properly anyway.

So far I used a Sony SDP-EP90ES (really old stuff but it can downmix DD and DD+). I could always use the LFE signal and it made a noticable difference when playing games or watching movies.

Why wouldn't a simple Topping e30 work to take spdif in from the TV and output 2ch analog?

Please correct me if I am wrong but this is a simply DAC which lacks the follwing:
  • Proper downmixing of multi-channel DD/DD+/DTS to 2.0 (meaning that missing speakers will be incorperated / simulated, also including LFE)
  • Room correction
  • It will only accept PCM signals (No DD, DD+, DTS,...)
 

Beershaun

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Please correct me if I am wrong but this is a simply DAC which lacks the follwing:
  • Proper downmixing of multi-channel DD/DD+/DTS to 2.0 (meaning that missing speakers will be incorperated / simulated, also including LFE)
  • Room correction
  • It will only accept PCM signals (No DD, DD+, DTS,...)
Doesn't the TV handle downmixing? You generally have a setting in your TV to output stereo or multi-channel. Maybe the OP can check if the TV can handle that and output stereo. RE: room correction, yes that ends up being a can of worms if you don't have an AVR or integrated amp with it built in. Maybe TV stereo out, minidsp 2x4 in, then out to topping E30? It's a bit of a kludge but certainly less expensive than a full blown AVR for 2ch stereo.
 
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zakazak

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Doesn't the TV handle downmixing? You generally have a setting in your TV to output stereo or multi-channel. Maybe the OP can check if the TV can handle that and output stereo. RE: room correction, yes that ends up being a can of worms if you don't have an AVR or integrated amp with it built in. Maybe TV stereo out, minidsp 2x4 in, then out to topping E30? It's a bit of a kludge but certainly less expensive than a full blown AVR for 2ch stereo.

The TV can downmix to PCM.
That looses any multi-channel data and also LFE.
Basically it takes e.g. a 7.1 signal and cuts out only the PCM 2.0 while throwing away everything else (to my knowledge and testing).
That was my first idea as well.. would have made it a lot easier.
But by setting my TV to "PCM Output" my current sound processor (Sony SDP-EP90ES) will suddenly not detect any DD, DD+ and LFE signals.

The other TV Option is "Bitstream Passthrough" where the audio data will not be altered at all by the TV.
That means I can use an external processor to do all the magic ;-)

Oh wait, I can also use "eARC" on my TV.
That basically is an audio output just like TOSLINK but with more features?
Or does eARC also transfer the video data (which I guess that I don't want to)?
So I could use any sound processor which support eARC. But I still need to find a good sound processor.
 
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techsamurai

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The TV can downmix to PCM.
That looses any multi-channel data and also LFE.
Basically it takes e.g. a 7.1 signal and cuts out only the PCM 2.0 while throwing away everything else (to my knowledge and testing).
That was my first idea as well.. would have made it a lot easier.
But by setting my TV to "PCM Output" my current sound processor (Sony SDP-EP90ES) will suddenly not detect any DD, DD+ and LFE signals.

The other TV Option is "Bitstream Passthrough" where the audio data will not be altered at all by the TV.
That means I can use an external processor to do all the magic ;-)

Oh wait, I can also use "eARC" on my TV.
That basically is an audio output just like TOSLINK but with more features?
Or does eARC also transfer the video data (which I guess that I don't want to)?
So I could use any sound processor which support eARC. But I still need to find a good sound processor.

Someone on this forum please correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no channel for LFE in a soundtrack. When we say 7.1 that is what the receiver can do, not what the soundtrack that comes from Netflix or elsewhere contains. Think of it as stereo music which is 2 channel, not 2.1 although your AVR can take 2 channels music and play them as 2.1 as I'll explain later.

The Dolby Digital (DTS is the same) soundtrack consists of 2, 5 or 7 channel, or Atmos (7 + Height channels). All of these are in the same soundtrack. If you have 2 speakers, it uses the 2 channel. If you have 5 like my systems do, it uses the 5 channel etc, etc.

You're not going to be able to fold 7 channels into 2 channels afaik and I'm not sure you'd want that. You want to listen to the 2 channel soundtrack as that is the best sound for the 2 speakers you have.

If your Left and Right speakers are good, you'll be shocked how it will sound. Gene Dellasala from Audioholics played 2 channel (was it Hamilton) or some other movie like that on his new Perlistens and he and the other person thought it was almost surround sound so 2 channel is plenty to start, trust me.

The LFE (low frequency effects) is decided by the existence of a subwoofer and the crossover point. If you don't have a subwoofer, your speakers handle all the low frequencies and try to play what's call full range. If they are bookshelf speakers, you'll hear some bass but very little although some bookshelves can dig low but are few and far between and cost a lot. If your speakers are 3 way towers with bass woofers, their ability to dig deep can vary. If you can add a sub, you can decide the crossover point(s) - essentially what frequency your receiver will switch the frequencies from your speakers to the sub. Then the sub will play the low frequencies you chose to send over for all the speakers :)

If you have access to streaming, play something with bass like Das Boot DJ Mellow Mix (start in the 6th Minute) and check how it slams that constant bass note on your 2 speakers. If you're satisfied and live in an apartment or the room is small, it'll probably be more than enough and you won't have to meet the local authorities. Of course, you're not going to shake your house without a sub but the bass could be great for some speakers in some rooms.

To add a sub check if your amp has a sub out port or RCA so you can add a sub down the road.

Now let's get back to connections from the TV.

eArc requires HDMI and supports the full format but you need an AVR that supports eARC (all new ones do but some older models may only support Arc or nothing). eArc is the best way to carry a multi-channel uncompressed (the best quality) audio signal. It doesn't sound like your receiver has an eArc port.

Optical/Toslink (Toshiba Link) refer to the same cable connection and can only carry a compressed 5 and 7 channel signal but only 2 uncompressed channels. Since you only have 2 speakers, Optical supports 2 uncompressed channels and that's great for you as it's a perfect match with your speaker count.

Does your receiver support Optical? If so, you're good to go.

If you don't have an Optical or HDMI, then maybe there's a device that can help you but that's exactly what AVRs do. Denon has an AVR for $300 that will handle 2 channels over eArc and might be your best bet. You could go for used gear with optical to get better sound but they are such a gamble that I'd stay away from it unless you live in a city and you can test the equipment before buying it.

If you bought the Denon, you would not use your Sony amp as I doubt the Denon entry level model has the ability to just decode and send the signal to an amp (that's called acting as a preamp processor) and it's reserved for more expensive models usually but maybe there's an affordable one out there that does that.
 
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zakazak

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Someone on this forum please correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no channel for LFE in a soundtrack. When we say 7.1 that is what the receiver can do, not what the soundtrack that comes from Netflix or elsewhere contains. Think of it as stereo music which is 2 channel, not 2.1 although your AVR can take 2 channels music and play them as 2.1 as I'll explain later.

The Dolby Digital (DTS is the same) soundtrack consists of 2, 5 or 7 channel, or Atmos (7 + Height channels). All of these are in the same soundtrack. If you have 2 speakers, it uses the 2 channel. If you have 5 like my systems do, it uses the 5 channel etc, etc.

You're not going to be able to fold 7 channels into 2 channels afaik and I'm not sure you'd want that. You want to listen to the 2 channel soundtrack as that is the best sound for the 2 speakers you have.

If your Left and Right speakers are good, you'll be shocked how it will sound. Gene Dellasala from Audioholics played 2 channel (was it Hamilton) or some other movie like that on his new Perlistens and he and the other person thought it was almost surround sound so 2 channel is plenty to start, trust me.

The LFE (low frequency effects) is decided by the existence of a subwoofer and the crossover point. If you don't have a subwoofer, your speakers handle all the low frequencies and try to play what's call full range. If they are bookshelf speakers, you'll hear some bass but very little although some bookshelves can dig low but are few and far between and cost a lot. If your speakers are 3 way towers with bass woofers, their ability to dig deep can vary. If you can add a sub, you can decide the crossover point(s) - essentially what frequency your receiver will switch the frequencies from your speakers to the sub. Then the sub will play the low frequencies you chose to send over for all the speakers :)

If you have access to streaming, play something with bass like Das Boot DJ Mellow Mix (start in the 6th Minute) and check how it slams that constant bass note on your 2 speakers. If you're satisfied and live in an apartment or the room is small, it'll probably be more than enough and you won't have to meet the local authorities. Of course, you're not going to shake your house without a sub but the bass could be great for some speakers in some rooms.

To add a sub check if your amp has a sub out port or RCA so you can add a sub down the road.

Now let's get back to connections from the TV.

eArc requires HDMI and supports the full format but you need an AVR that supports eARC (all new ones do but some older models may only support Arc or nothing). eArc is the best way to carry a multi-channel uncompressed (the best quality) audio signal. It doesn't sound like your receiver has an eArc port.

Optical/Toslink (Toshiba Link) refer to the same cable connection and can only carry a compressed 5 and 7 channel signal but only 2 uncompressed channels. Since you only have 2 speakers, Optical supports 2 uncompressed channels and that's great for you as it's a perfect match with your speaker count.

Does your receiver support Optical? If so, you're good to go.

If not, then you need something that will take the optical sound and convert it to a regular RCA (left and right) connection that you can use to connect to the receiver.

If you don't have an Optical or HDMI, then maybe there's a device that can help you but Denon has an AVR for $300 that will handle 2 channels over eArc and might be your best bet. You could go for used gear with optical to get better sound but they are such a gamble that I'd stay away from it unless you live in a city and you can test the equipment before buying it.

Thank you - it all makes sense.
So a movie will always include a 2.0 track and that track will always have all audio contents to its best qualities for a 2.0 setup.

I think I was mistaken because my old sound processor had a feature to do "virtual surround simulation" where it would try to output a 5.1 signal on a 2.0 system by simulation the missing speakers.
My sound processor is showing which kind of input it gets (e.g. 5.1 with LFE). It would usually show me that "LFE" was present. Depending on the source material.

Would room correction be useful for my small apartment with those two large speakers (Magnat Zero 8)?
Another handy feature with "pass through" to a sound processor: My TV doesn't support DTS. With "pass through" I could still play DTS if the sound processor supports it.
Other than that, according to your information, I could just use any decent DAC between my TV and AMP :)
 
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zakazak

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@techsamurai
LFE is an extra channel in DD :) See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Digital#Channel_configurations

These configurations optionally include the extra low-frequency effects (LFE) channel. The last two with stereo surrounds optionally use Dolby Digital EX matrix encoding to add an extra Rear Surround channel.

The '.1' in 5.1, 7.1 etc. refers to the LFE channel, which is also a discrete channel.

Also:
Many Dolby Digital decoders are equipped with downmixing to distribute encoded channels to speakers. This includes such functions as playing surround information through the front speakers if surround speakers are unavailable, and distributing the center channel to left and right if no center speaker is available. When outputting to separate equipment over a 2-channel connection, a Dolby Digital decoder can optionally encode the output using Dolby Surround to preserve surround information.

So downmixing is a useful thing?
 

techsamurai

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@techsamurai
LFE is an extra channel in DD :) See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Digital#Channel_configurations



Also:


So downmixing is a useful thing?
Duh, you'd need a decoder - it's early in the morning to decode it :)

I checked your amp. Nice components in the picture (massive capacitors and toroidal transformer). I honestly don't know how you can integrate it without purchasing an AVR that will act as a 2 channel pre/pro and even then I'm not sure if you'd get much better performance.

 
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zakazak

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Duh, you'd need a decoder - it's early in the morning to decode it :)

I checked your amp. Nice components in the picture (massive capacitors and toroidal transformer). I honestly don't know how you can integrate it without purchasing an AVR that will act as a pre/pro.


Yes, I really like the amp and it is built like a tank that will probably work for another 20 years.

So I still need a decoder (= sound processor) since my TV can't really decode it (although specs say AC4, AC3(Dolby Digital), EAC3, HE-AAC, AAC, MP2, MP3, PCM, WMA, apt-X)?

Something like a Emotiva MC-1 or NAD C 658 but probably cheaper?
 

techsamurai

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@techsamurai
LFE is an extra channel in DD :) See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Digital#Channel_configurations



Also:


So downmixing is a useful thing?

You're going to get a lot of technical explanations here as people know how the soundtracks are stored and what happens. I don't.

All I can say is that if the .1 is a discrete channel then how can the decoder decide which channel to send that frequency to when you don't have a subwoofer?

Does it mean that if you don't have a subwoofer, you don't have bass? That's not the case. Does it send the bass to all the speakers? I hope not :)

I think they may use the .1 to duplicate bass so the AVR doesn't have to calculate how much bass to send to the sub from the other channels. If there's a sub, all it needs to do is feed it that channel and apply filters. I guess the channels have the full range baked into them and once you have a sub, it's just a matter of sound filters deciding what frequencies to play. No calculation or diversion of LFE necessary.

You're right about downmixing - the center channel gets split to the L and R. I wasn't aware that surround sounds like the rears are played from the front speakers. That sounds funky because a bullet from the back may sound awkward but then again if it's one bullet that only plays from the back speaker and kills an actor coming from the back, not hearing it or hearing just a bit of it would make you wonder how the person died so obviously the sound needs to play on the other channels.

The DD decoder does that so you don't need to worry about that.

That would support the claim of some people saying that 2 channels sound almost like surround. If your speakers have a great soundstage, the sound will envelope you and you wouldn't be missing anything, I guess.
 

techsamurai

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Yes, I really like the amp and it is built like a tank that will probably work for another 20 years.

So I still need a decoder (= sound processor) since my TV can't really decode it (although specs say AC4, AC3(Dolby Digital), EAC3, HE-AAC, AAC, MP2, MP3, PCM, WMA, apt-X)?

Something like a Emotiva MC-1 or NAD C 658 but probably cheaper?

Yeah but they are not that cheap and I daresay overkill for your 2 channel application. The AVR I suggested was $299. Look at the inside of the Emotiva - the chassis is practically empty.
 

techsamurai

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What about something a Bluesound Node which takes Toslink and HDMI eArc and has a L&R RCA and a subwoofer out if you add a sub down the road.


Can someone who's more familiar let us know if connecting it to the LG TV will be able to play movies in 2 channel from the apps and provide 2 channel sound for the games?

You may just want to try it out! The CX has 4 HDMI 2.1 so you should be able to use an eArc and still keep 2 HDMI 2.1 inputs for your console(s).

You can also use it to stream music.
 

DVDdoug

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The TV can downmix to PCM.
That looses any multi-channel data and also LFE.
This may have already been said but the other surround channels are included, which is what "downmix" means... It's a mix. :) But you do loose the LFE. The LFE requires a separate subwoofer, and decoding.

So a movie will always include a 2.0 track and that track will always have all audio contents to its best qualities for a 2.0 setup.
Usually, but not always.

So I still need a decoder (= sound processor) since my TV can't really decode it (although specs say AC4, AC3(Dolby Digital), EAC3, HE-AAC, AAC, MP2, MP3, PCM, WMA, apt-X)?
Yes. Usually the stereo track is PCM but not always.

DVDs are required to have at least one Dolby AC3 track (it can be stereo or mono) or at least one PCM track (which will be mono or stereo). A DVD player with analog outputs is required to decode both (for compatibility with all DVDs).

I've forgotten the "rules" for Blu-Ray and I don't know anything about broadcast standards/compatibility.

An AVR is compatible with all of the standards so you can play any DVD or watch any broadcast. Except older AVRs without HDMI don't support all of the Bly-Ray formats. The AVR isn't required to support every format (DTS, etc.) but the "shiny discs" are required to have at-least one of the more-standard formats (so everybody with an AVR can play them).

Your TV can decode anything standard too and downmix for the built-in speakers, and any headphone other analog outputs if it has them. It will usually pass-through any digital audio so that's normally decoded by your AVR.
 
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