Audio Note speakers

[Puddingbuks]

Point is that a neutral speaker is always best. Do you want a speaker that only sounds good with certain records? With coloration of the sound that certainly is not anywhere close to “true to source”?

 

[DanielT]

If you want a pair of similar speakers like those audionote, old Kef are indeed sounding similar, but better. And they are all over the place and relative cheap. I got a pair of Kef Chorales here now to restore that were free given. I need to restore the crossover (will cost me about 25€ to do both new) and some minor cosmetic fixes. I'm sure i can bring them back for about 50€ and they can be sold/bought for 3-400€ in good shape.

Or get the original Snell or Dynaco A25 speakers, they are also easy to find and much cheaper and better sounding (but similar sound signature). A lot of brands are just going back to those old designs and repackage it for a ridiculous ammount of money, while the originals are better and still there, and very often there are diy clones/variations of it that are way better than those overpriced snake oil speakers. Devore is an other company that does that, in a similar way as Audio Note and with similar inspirations (Dynaco A25 and A35) that they repackage in a fancy overpriced way.

Then i prefer something like Harbeth. They also lean on the (BBC) past, but at least their speakers are well build and do what the company says they do. And they don't support snake oil amps or cables or so, they recommend a very mainstream (relative cheap) integrated amps for theirs. It's not ASR standard fit, but it's not snake oil neighter and their spreakers work like intended with their "signature sound".

If I'm not mistaken, in the period that Kef had the Chorales, they bought this very expensive computer, which they first used to design the 104, the first 'Reference' and the Correli, the (or a) successor of the Chorale, was (much) better. @DSJR mentioned something like this, I think in this thread, months ago, maybe he could clarify it. I wouldn't be surprised if you could make the chorale better by redesigning the crossover so that it's more like that of the corelli, Calinda or the 104(aB), though those have different woofers. Better, but less Audio note-like I guess . My experience with the chorale was that it had some excess mids and worse (upper) treble than the 104aB which I've had too and the diy cs1 (which I still have) while using the same tweeters, the t27, which are now replicated, to re-sell the bbc ls3-5a concept, while nowaday tweeters (etc) are so much better...

Speaking of the t27 tweeter. My friend, who usually organizes a vintage DIY hifi fair, has over the years collected a hell of a lot of old KEF drivers. It was kind of his thing to build KEF clones, even LS3/5A copies. And why not, a hobby as good as any.
In any case, when he completely renovated his apartment, he sold most of the hifi stuff he had collected over the years. A little more than 40 pieces t27 tweeters were sold.He got some money for them (it wasn't much) plus he doesn't get teased for his hoarding behavior these days.

In connection with the sale, he checked the t27's out. More than half measured so poorly that they could hardly even be considered functional. So a word of warning for those thinking of buying old speakers with t27 tweeters.

Maybe the t27 tweeters were/are a fragile design? Maybe they've been played with so much over the years that they've worn out? I don't know. With 8 watts RMS, one might wonder if they are so suitable for playing at a higher volume for a longer period of time? Especially in that case with flat filters set below the recommended crossover point of 3.5 kHz. KEF probably didn't do that with their models, set the crossover point too low, but still.

In addition, an 8 inch KEF B200 bass driver with crossover to the t27 tweeter set at 3.5 kHz does not sound like an optimal solution. To let an 8 inch bass operate up to 3.5 kHz that is.

_____

Here two of my friend's builds:

LS3/5A copy:


Here in line with the theme of the thread. A two-way speaker with wide baffle and 8 inch bass driver (KEF B200) + KEF Passive Radiator. They sounded okay.
Would say pretty good, on axes anyway.


My friend said that he would file some WG for the tweeter in baffle. I don't know if he did. Why make it difficult? Instead, choose a tweeter with WG that can be set with a lower crossover point, such as these:


ScanSpeak H2606/920000
Especially, as already pointed out in the thread, the need for WG tweeters if an 8 inch bass driver is to be used in a two-way design.

Tweeters used in this excellent DIY:

Small 2-way speakers with linear on-axis and power response characteristics (Scan Speak and SB Acoustics drivers). H&V off-axis measurements included

I've been trying to make design of a small, simple-to-build and inexpensive speaker that would not need a sub at least for music listening at moderate spl levels. No need for high power. This is third approach, code name "Mechano23". I'm sharing the results and VituixCad project file (LINK) with...

audiosciencereview.com

....but my friend was, is not nowadays, a bit obsessed with old t27 tweeters.

 

[Waxx]

I prefer the H087 tweeter above the T27 anyway, if you talk about 70's Seas tweeters, it's a much better one in my personal opinion. But many seems to like that old T27 and pay sometimes crazy prices for it. I'm just restoring that old Kef Chorale, i won't use it, it will go again after restauration. Plan B (if their was a bigger problem than the crossover) was to recup the still working drivers for selling them, as they go for silly prices (even the B200 woofer).

And i agree that modern tweeters are often much better, my favorite dome tweeter is a 50€ modern alu tweeter, the SB26ADC, that is a lot better than both the T27 and the H087 or all vintage tweeters i know. It's cheaper, easier to find and a lot more controlled untill about 1200Hz (measured by several people) than those old ones. On it's own or in a waveguide this is a gem.

 

[DanielT]

I prefer the H087 tweeter above the T27 anyway, if you talk about 70's Seas tweeters, it's a much better one in my personal opinion. But many seems to like that old T27 and pay sometimes crazy prices for it. I'm just restoring that old Kef Chorale, i won't use it, it will go again after restauration. Plan B (if their was a bigger problem than the crossover) was to recup the still working drivers for selling them, as they go for silly prices (even the B200 woofer).

And i agree that modern tweeters are often much better, my favorite dome tweeter is a 50€ modern alu tweeter, the SB26ADC, that is a lot better than both the T27 and the H087 or all vintage tweeters i know. It's cheaper, easier to find and a lot more controlled untill about 1200Hz (measured by several people) than those old ones. On it's own or in a waveguide this is a gem.

I agree with you that SB26ADC is: On it's own or in a waveguide this is a gem.

Speaking of with or without WG. SB26ADC vs. Dayton Audio ND25FW-4 with WG. I'll see which ones fit, measuring/ sound best in my modified QLN boxes.

I apologize for the blurry pictures.


I promise no more OT from me in this thread. In and of itself, I like threads that spread in all sorts of directions, but maybe it's not everyone's cup of tea?.

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

But many seems to like that old T27 and pay sometimes crazy prices for it

Partly sighted bias maybe? Such subtle looking small membranes.. But if you 'know' a speaker longer, it also works partly the other way round. In the case of one of the better designs with the t27, that can sound very well, their looks can get a certain 'degree of magic'. But if you then hear good modern speakers, the highs are more refined, not like 'tearing paper' anymore.

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

Talking about KEF: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-q-series-with-mat-whitepaper.57911/

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

Point is that a neutral speaker is always best. Do you want a speaker that only sounds good with certain records? With coloration of the sound that certainly is not anywhere close to “true to source”?

What is so nice about good, neutral speakers, is that you can forget about them. Just listen to music. Most recordings, broadcasts will sound just fine. Especially when you care about the sound, it's such a good thing if you can 'forget your gear' ass well (again). Instead of endless tweaking and doubting or even buy snake oil.

 

[Waxx]

What is so nice about good, neutral speakers, is that you can forget about them. Just listen to music. Most recordings, broadcasts will sound just fine. Especially when you care about the sound, it's such a good thing if you can 'forget your gear' ass well (again). Instead of endless tweaking and doubting or even buy snake oil.

for a lot of people good coloured speakers do the same. But those are mostly not audiophile speakers advertised by snake oil mags. They are very often classic vintage speakers like the Kef Chorale or the Dynaco A25, that were for their time the best arround. The trick is to find the models that are not overhyped and so sold for inflated prices. But the top of those are almost all overhyped and so way to expensive like many of the classics of Altec, JBL and Tannoy. But outside those brands, there are tons of others that are very easy to listen to, but don't fit the ASR standards at all. Many speakers of Philips, Kef, Dynaco, Goodman and Warfdale were like that (and there is more).

But they surely don't measure like modern hi tech speakers, and are not worht more in my book. The ones i got were cheap to aquire for me. And for critical systems (studio monitoring, hifi in the sense of neutral low distortion) they don't come close to the modern Genelec's, Neumanns, JBL's or Revel's. But they are very enjoyable to listen to for hours on their own.
I still rate Tannoy and Great Plains Audio (the modern company who sells modern build (relative accurate) Altec drivers clones), but won't buy any of them, as their prices are ridiculous today. But their speakers are still very enjoyable in the old way, the way that made them famous. JBL does it right, and makes to today (ASR) standards great speakers, they don't rely only on the past like those two other brands. They moved with the time and technology and their speakers are worth the prices they go for, even the 17K costing (for a pair) JBL 4367 that is as neutral as the Genelecs and Neumann's of today, certainly if you add dsp room correction. The (50K costing) Tannoy Westminster is not neutral at all. It's oldskool coloured but nice sounding, but certainly not worth the 50K they sell for. 5K for a pair would be more reasonable (for the extensive woodwork, not the sound or the engineeing).

 

[MarcelH]

No not the negative feedback is bad trope again any amp can produce odd harmonics SS or tube ,thing is that the levels can be inaudible low the THD spectra can look anyway it wants it' still inaudible , apart from AN's terrible electronics with very high amounts of possibly clearly audible distortion and noise . On to the ignore list you go ? Why are you on this forum go post astrology on an astronomy fora ?

What, acoustics and psychoacoustics are not science but astrology?

Human ears are very sensitive to some things, some frequencies, some distortions, insesitive to others. SINAD actually describes more or less nothing, in terms of how electronics or speakres transduce music.

Inherent to SET tube designs is to have dominant even harmonics, inherent to SS designs is to have dominant odd harmonics. It has a lot to do with nature of feedback circuits. Also, tubes have output transformes, SS is direct or capacitor coupled, except Mcintosh. That affects sound.

Lot of SS setups, and some tube setups, just sonud lifeless and boring. Then again, I've heard Gryphon EOS 2 speakers this saturday. Perfect, incredibly good. But, oh, yeah, gryphon amps have no negative feedback and due to that much more distortion compared to much cheaper amps, I'm pretty sure there are 100 dollar amps which will beat 100 k usd gryphons in SINAD measurements. Sure people who buy them are deaf or have no knowledge?

 

[BDWoody]

Inherent to SET tube designs is to have dominant even harmonics, inherent to SS designs is to have dominant odd harmonics.

So, I'll ask again since you are just repeating the same inaccurate claims.

Do you have any kind of technical background that you are speaking from, or are you just regurgitating the propaganda you've picked up along the way?

 

[MattHooper]

It just looks logical to me, but indeed, there is no proof. Probably there are things that play a role that are not investigated yet, like 'differences in individual psychoacoustics'. But with ones hearing, one hears reality too..

The assumption that choosing neutral gear leads to better or longer user satisfaction seems to be an underlying one on this forum.

But I have never seen it validated. And anecdotal Familiarity with threads on topics like this, in both this forum and in polls on more subjective forums, don’t seem to suggest it is the case.

I go into more detail in this post with reference to a poll in the Steve Hoffman forums asking how long people owned their gear:

Audio Note speakers

My experience is generally the opposite. My first impression always sticks. I'm a "tone/timbre" first guy, so voices and instruments I like have to sound "right" to my perception - invoke certain "colors" in my mind - and that is pretty immediately the case or not. If I think "wow that...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[MattHooper]

Point is that a neutral speaker is always best. Do you want a speaker that only sounds good with certain records?

As I pointed out before, that is the case, whether you choose neutral speakers or coloured speakers.

If you choose neutral speakers, they are going to vividly show you the differences in recording quality, and the variation and recording quality means that “ certain records sound good and others do not.”

So it’s not really a problem you get around choosing neutral gear.

What is so nice about good, neutral speakers, is that you can forget about them. Just listen to music. Most recordings, broadcasts will sound just fine.

That also describes the experience of people with more coloured gear as well. in fact, some people find that certain coloured gear makes more of the recordings they like sound listenable and pleasant.

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

As I pointed out before, that is the case, whether you choose neutral speakers or coloured speakers.

If you choose neutral speakers, they are going to vividly show you the differences in recording quality, and the variation and recording quality means that “ certain records sound good and others do not.”

So it’s not really a problem you get around choosing neutral gear.



That also describes the experience of people with more coloured gear as well. in fact, some people find that certain coloured gear makes more of the recordings they like sound listenable and pleasant.

That's allright for them of course, but couldn't it be that there are more people that listen to a great variety of music, radio programms, etc. and that the average sound of all that would be about neutral on about neutral speakers? And when producers and engineers try to make a good production, don't they on average aim at neutral sound on neutral speakers? So then neutrality would mean biggest chance on right tonality, not extremely strict, but still..

 

[MattHooper]

That's allright for them of course, but couldn't it be that there are more people that listen to a great variety of music, radio programms, etc. and that the average sound of all that would be about neutral on about neutral speakers? And when producers and engineers try to make a good production, don't they on average aim at neutral sound on neutral speakers? So then neutrality would mean biggest chance on right tonality, not extremely strict, but still..

There’s a bit of a myth among subjective audiophiles that neutral loudspeakers, and equipment “ sound cold, and clinical.”

I think a lot of that probably comes from being exposed to speakers/systems they assumed where neutral, but probably had some emphasis in the highs or deficit in the warmth region, they just described that to neutrality.

A well-behaved neutral loudspeaker, such as the type often recommended here, should actually sound even and smooth And relatively easy to listen to. It shouldn’t exacerbate problems in recordings, and that in itself can be taken as allowing most recordings to sound quite listenable or pleasant.

On the other hand, if you aren’t used to a neutral speaker (especially like some non-audiophiles) the neutrality can come as a bit of a shock because it exposes the variability of recordings and away you weren’t aware of.
That Prog rock recording with awesome bass on your coloured system… not so much on the neutral speakers, as the nature of the recording is revealed.

I’ve and some very neutral speakers in the past that I very much enjoyed.

Currently my two set of floorstanding loudspeakers, Thiel 2.7 and Joseph audio perspective 2, are pretty accurate (depending on how strict one wants to be about that).
The individual nature of recordings are very obvious.

However, I slightly season the sonic presentation with my tube amplification.
I find this makes the sound overall more engaging and pleasant, and it makes me want to listen to an even wide variety of recordings. The recording style and quality from my recollection to my CD collection varies in the extreme. And yet I find it easy to sit back and relax and enjoy virtually any record I put on. That’s a total win for me.

 

[MattHooper]

I haven't met thousands of people who use "colored" gear, but I've seen a good few. Some kept their "colored" gear a shorter period of time, and some kept it a longer period of time. In the end, most played the change-up game, buying what they thought was fabulous, and then tiring of it some time later.

Do you know which people were the exceptions? It was people who were alive and using tube gear in the '50s, '60s and '70s. In those years, both low-level and high-level circuits were designed and implemented with neutrality as the goal.

Nowadays, precious little tube gear is designed and implemented with neutrality as the goal ... if any.

Jim

I think because there is no good study data on this, we are going to be left to our individual experience and anecdotes and what we’ve observed overtime, which will influence our judgement.

 

[MarcelH]

So, I'll ask again since you are just repeating the same inaccurate claims.

Do you have any kind of technical background that you are speaking from, or are you just regurgitating the propaganda you've picked up along the way?

Not much techincal knowledge is needed to realize that in SET topology there's no way to cancel 2nd order harmonic. So it's dominant.

Also, not much knowledge is needed to realize that SS amps in AB or D class have to use large amounts of negative feedback which leads to phase shift, which in return produces odd harmonics, ie distortion. Now, bench testing the amp is done with a sine wave, that's how THD is measured. And test results will show very low THD: But this phase shift comes in play in dynamic conditions, musical transients can be seen on a scope when testing an amp with a square wave signal. The phase shift creates distortion in dynamic conditions, and tends to be odd-harmonics. So, in real life, with real music, you will have waaay more distortion than measurements show. And, btw, it's well established fact, done by science known by "listening", that amps with very low distortion and hyper detailed often sound lifeless and boring. And there's an actual scientific explanation for that.

So, like acceleration in case of cars, THD numbers doesn't tell the whole story. And actually tells nothing about sound of amplifier.

 

[MarcelH]

So, facts:

1. Human ear is very sensitive to odd harmonics, especially high order, and they sound very unpleasant, that's not matter of taste
2. Human ear is extremely insensitive to even harmonics, and no testing has ever shown that anything less than 1% is audible in any way.

PART II: Human Hearing, Total Distortion and Loss of Information

Fundamentally, the effect of a poor quality system comprising of inferior electronics, transducers and acoustic design is a lack of definition and detail, but equally important in a live audio situation is the distance in which a system can project clear defined audio.

www.kv2audio.com

"Listening tests show that odd harmonic distortion is audible form 0.1%, whilst even harmonic distortion is audible form 1%."

Besides, it sounds pleasant.

3. Amount of odd harmonics can not be properly measured on test bench with sine wave, because it comes in under dynamic conditions and musical transients, due to nature of negative feedback, which inevitably results in phase shifts under such conditions.

So, SINAD is just a number, one of many things that can be measured, and it cannot even tell if something sucks, even less if something sounds great.
.

 

[BDWoody]

Not much techincal knowledge is needed...

So you aren't talking from your own knowledge, but are just parroting the industry talking points, which is filled with people just talking out of their asses.

Now, bench testing the amp is done with a sine wave,

Such confident ignorance. Some tests are, but how about the multitone test as one example?

And, btw, it's well established fact, done by science known by "listening", that amps with very low distortion and hyper detailed often sound lifeless and boring. And there's an actual scientific explanation for that.

What a bunch of nonsense.

I think you've had the chance to enlighten us as much as you are able, and just repeating this silliness over and over isn't moving anything forward, so we'll call it a day in this thread.

 

[Jim Taylor]

... it cannot even tell if something sucks, even less if something sounds great.

Neutral audio playback equipment strives to reproduce what is on the recording. That is "accuracy". However, some people either 1) do not prefer accuracy, or 2) have been exposed to a dominant inaccuracy, and therefore are accustomed to it.

There is no gainsaying preference. You like what you like. But preference has absolutely nothing to do with judging accuracy, although the opposite might be true. (Accuracy is the reproducible standard, and preferences are variations that are not reproducible.)

Accuracy of electronic circuits is shown with tests and measurements, performed with analytical instruments far more sensitive and accurate than the human auditory system.

I have found the best solution to this problem is to acquire as accurate a system as I can, and then sit back and enjoy what it provides. YMMV.

Jim

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

I promise no more OT from me in this thread. In and of itself, I like threads that spread in all sorts of directions, but maybe it's not everyone's cup of tea?.

I find the topic of this thread very suitable to go off topic. The thread was brought back to life a week ago by an... astonishing post by @Ro808, after that I found it rather interesting at times, sometimes amusing, sometimes somewhat

boring

My class-D amp sounds lifeless and boring indeed, when it amplifies lifeless and boring music, but when that occasionaly happens, I just change the station. And what's so nice, every watt it consumes more than about 18 w, is converted in music, voices.