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ATC speakers / Monitors

Curvature

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No, I'm not. I never really cared about the audiophile world, pro audio is a different planet altogether. If it's not a new line of thought, which is really good news, a lot are apparently still very confused about this.
I would disagree about planet. Maybe next town over.

Pros talking about OFC cables, power, hardware voodoo, the magic of certain speakers or driver materials is pretty normal. Just like with consumer audiophiles, it's derived from some underlying truth and modified with a lot of fancy.

Case in point are the insane threads on GS about sampling rate.
 

thewas

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No, I'm not. I never really cared about the audiophile world, pro audio is a different planet altogether. If it's not a new line of thought, which is really good news, a lot are apparently still very confused about this.
Although the average level is higher unfortunately also the pro audio world is full of myths and misunderstandings, so the equality "pro = truth" isn't unfortunately always the case.
 

Northward

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Although the average level is higher unfortunately also the pro audio world is full of myths and misunderstandings, so the equality "pro = truth" isn't unfortunately always the case.
Oh absolutely. The goals just aren't the same. The means to achieve them too. The type of myths is pretty different, though there are some crossovers.
 

Torbachkristensen

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But the fact that these distortion products happen significantly above the audio range makes them inaudible.

Please stop trying to avoid relating to the measurements. The resonances are there, they are triggered by a regular test input for measuring, hence they will also be there with music. Don’t try to tell people here that this is not a problem - of course it is, and it can be heard.
 

thewas

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Please stop. The resonances are there, they are triggered by a regular test input for measuring, hence they will also be there with music. Don’t try to tell people here that this is not a problem - of course it is, and it can be heard.
As said the resonance is around 27 kHz which is inaudible, all hard domes have similar, while soft domes smear the break up to a wider and lower (usually in the audio range) frequency. Unfortunately the interpretation of HD curves and even more their correlation to audibility is very complex.
 

Northward

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And where exactly is my statement wrong that they come from gated measurements?

By the way the plot discussed above is not the listening window you posted but the lateral response:

1209ATCfig5.jpg


Fig.5 ATC SCM 11, lateral response family at 50", normalized to response on tweeter axis, from back to front: differences in response 90–5° off axis, reference response, differences in response 5–90° off axis.

Source: https://www.stereophile.com/content/atc-scm-11-loudspeaker-measurements
Anechoic measurements are typically not gated. Because they are anechoic...

It's like being in a pitch black room wearing sunglasses. :)
 

thewas

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Anechoic measurements are typically not gated. Because they are anechoic...

It's like being in a pitch black room wearing sunglasses. :)
Not correct, as almost no one has huge anechoic chambers necessary to perform those, so usually above the lower mids gated measurements are performed which give the same results.

By the way the Klippel NFS also computes the anechoic responses although it is not needed to be placed in an anechoic chamber.
 

thewas

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Your point being? You're quoting less than half of the story. I'd love to see where you're going with that and how you're going to misinterprete it all.
Please feel free to quote what you thing is missing. Even more though I would like to see a paper of your room design theory and some measurements of your room designs because on your website I didn't find any.
 

turnip_up

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direct sound is perceptually dominant however human auditory system starts a fusion interval for 40ms(after a single direct sound hits our eardrums), where all the incoming reflections combined/fused with the direct sound. Each incoming reflection adds timbral colorations to direct sound but simply early reflections are not heard as spatially separate events. This is called as precedence effect.

Read more about precedence effect in Toole's book for more information. Basically even while sitting very close to speakers, we hear a combination of direct sound and early reflections. That is why directivity of speakers matters a lot. Directivity is not just a silly measurement to calculate sweet spot width of speakers, directivity of speakers determine how the reflections are formed inside a room. This's why sum of early reflections are sound power response of speakers are very important to us and that is why most of us here find ATC designs outdated. ATC designs do not take precedence effect into full consideration. ATCs have awfully colored reflections and an measurements taken with omni microphones can't reveal that, only anechoic measurements can.

That isn't quite right. Toole stipulates an even off-axis frequency response for speakers used in rooms that are reflective above the transition frequency as a method of achieving the most even distribution of frequencies at the listening position. The wider that off-axis response is, the more 'spaciousness' a listener perceives the sound to be.

The precedence effect is something altogether different. It has nothing to do with frequency distribution. It is about sound localisation - how our brains perceive the origin of a sound based on things like time of arrival to our ears. Stuff like speaker placement, listening position and room size will have the biggest influence on precedence effect. It is also one of the main reasons stereo sound reproduction in cinemas came and went in a heartbeat.
 

Avp1

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Looked pretty nice, GD is mostly clean and the FR looks like a fairly flat speaker in a normal living room with the reflection issues. Still that post 10khz steep roll off is there, I assume you don’t have them toed in to the listening position so it’s reflecting the off axis performance?

They are a bit off axis. Sound is more natural that way. Also absorption raises quickly at these frequencies due to carpeted floor. You can observe that on waterfall graphs:

Left Waterfall.jpg
Right Waterfall.jpg
 

Purité Audio

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Please feel free to quote what you thing is missing. Even more though I would like to see a paper of your room design theory and some measurements of your room designs because on your website I didn't find any.
You have to pass a test before North imparts wisdom, it’s Arthurian, I rather like it.
Keith
 

Northward

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Not correct, as almost noone has a huge anechoic chambers to performe those, so usually above the lower mids gated measurements are performed which give the same results.

By the way the Klippel NFS also computes the anechoic responses although it is not needed to be placed in an anechoic chamber.
Ok, so that's a home made anechoic chamber? Those we did for some smaller manufacturers were small-ish and still valid down to a 100Hz or 80Hz. No need to gate anything and no gate used. Near and below LF cutoff, then response is managed. For less fortunate companies, LF were typically measured another way, often using very large spaces, lifting the speakers high up and gating within the LF band. "Automatic gating" is a feature all apps have these days. It's not the same though. Data gathered is not comparable 1:1.
 

Curvature

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That isn't quite right. Toole stipulates an even off-axis frequency response for speakers used in rooms that are reflective above the transition frequency as a method of achieving the most even distribution of frequencies at the listening position. The wider that off-axis response is, the more 'spaciousness' a listener perceives the sound to be.

The precedence effect is something altogether different. It has nothing to do with frequency distribution. It is about sound localisation - how our brains perceive the origin of a sound based on things like time of arrival to our ears. Stuff like speaker placement, listening position and room size will have the biggest influence on precedence effect. It is also one of the main reasons stereo sound reproduction in cinemas came and went in a heartbeat.
The sense of spaciousness or envelopment is due to the precedence effect. When the reflected sound has a different frequency distribution from the direct sound it affects perception.

In many speakers there are anomalies on and off axis that are audible because of the underlying fusion interval.
 

Curvature

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Ok, so that's a home made anechoic chamber? Those we did for some smaller manufacturers were small-ish and still valid down to a 100Hz or 80Hz. No need to gate anything and no gate used. Near and below LF cutoff, then response is managed. For less fortunate companies, LF were typically measured another way, often using very large spaces, lifting the speakers high up and gating within the LF band. "Automatic gating" is a feature all apps have these days. It's not the same though. Data gathered is not comparable 1:1.
It's just a gated measurement of the listening window at JA's home with the LF spliced in.
 

Avp1

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Just to illustrate the effect of well controlled directivity, a comparison between the ATC SCM 19 and the Genelec G Three. Focus on what's happening above 8kHz, where the ATC drops of very steep off-axis.

ATC:
View attachment 230347

Genelec:
View attachment 230348
Source: https://www.stereophile.com

Up to +/- 30 degrees they look almost the same. Quick drop at higher angles will likely help to have better in room sound presentation by reducing indirect sound. High frequencies are easily reflected and diffracted by small hard objects. That will result in what I would call acoustic fog.
 

Northward

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Please feel free to quote what you thing is missing. Even more though I would like to see a paper of your room design theory and some measurements of your room designs because on your website I didn't find any.
All of it.

You missed 90% of the explanation.

It explains how the rooms work. They're only hemi-anechoic in the speakers to room and speakers to engineer path - not the engineer to room path. They use a psycho-acoustic principle called self-noises cues. It's a key aspect of the design. These aren't anechoic rooms to the users at all.

We don't share detailed design data with strangers (or competitors for that matter) so you would not have the information and knowledge to read that data since it is simply not publicly available. All of this is proprietary and the reason why we survive as a company in today's pro audio world. We do share 100% with clients though, that have full access to everything, at any point in time.

The whole explanation:

This is your Front-To-Back [FTB] Control Room and Mastering Suite standard. What would be the basic tenets of construction that guarantee this?

The system is two-fold. I looked at how the room should behave to be problem-free, but also I tied in the subject of how we perceive sound in an entirely different way. In the old Live End, Dead End [LEDE] system, they used the Hass kicker [see sidebar] and other effects to feed environmental info back to the engineer about the space. In a Reflection-Free Zone [RFZ, a more modern version of LEDE] it is a little bit easier, because you have reflective areas in front of the room. RFZs use geometry to create a reflection-free zone around the sweet spot, so they sound a little more natural than the ones that had been deadened, such as old LEDE rooms with an absorptive front of the room. But the RFZ rooms don't really get rid of energy until it is far down in the room, and they'll still feed back something – a diffused version of the Hass kicker – which is basically like introducing distortion in the system. You're adding a variable between the engineer and the speaker, and that variable is related to the direct interaction between the speaker and the room. To me, that's always been, "Why would you want to do that?" Also, that Hass kicker was related to the size of the live room on the other side. That Hass kicker had to be within a certain time frame compared to the time frame of the live room. It made studios incompatible between one another, due to the time frame of the live rooms being different. There were a lot of very blurry areas, and it was running in circles. You justify Paper A with Paper B, and there was not anything I could grab onto; it was just a matter of opinion, at that point. I didn't like that. I decided FTB was a way to still provide environmental feedback to the engineer that did not involve the speakers, or anything related to speaker-to-engineer and speaker-to-room response. The idea is very basic. What is another source of sound in the room that I can use, besides the speakers? It is us. It's the noise we make when we walk, talk, and enter the room. From studies, I knew quite well what HRTF [Head-Related Transfer Function] is; I knew how long it would take for the brain to actually calibrate to a space, what it needs to do that, and what the auditory system would consider a "natural" space.

AG: Not everyone knows what the idea of a head-related transfer function is.

It's basically the influence of the torso, the head, and the pinna – the shape of the ear – on how we perceive sound. So that's the transfer; the influence of all of that on the way we hear. For example, the pinna will give you a lot of information about elevation from the reflection inside your ear. Another aspect is that it's like a fingerprint – everyone has a different set of ears. Part of the auditory system's response is acquired when you're born; it's embedded in your DNA. The other part you are learning as a kid by moving your head around; your brain learns how to identify objects around you from learning what it sounds like when it comes from this direction or that direction.

AG: Why is that important when you're building a room that is semi-anechoic?

Well, our brains and hearing systems don't like to be in anechoic environments. It's very unnatural. What you see is constantly correlated by the brain to what you hear. If you're in a dead, anechoic space, the cues that your brain receives about the space don't match the visual cues. The whole auditory system will distort its steady state response in a way that it will become a lot more sensitive to small reflections, high-frequencies, and anything that can give the brain detail more environmental data about the space. Everything will be enhanced. If you get your brain in that mindset, and then you play music, what you hear is not flat, in the sense that your brain will add a series of filters in between because it's looking for missing environmental information.

AG: It's overcompensating.

Yeah. That's why engineers complain that they add too much reverb or too much delay in dead rooms. Mixes are imbalanced when they move out of the room. The responsibility is not in the room being dead, because the room might measure flat. But we don't measure flat in the space. It's a combination of these two things that makes a room translate.

More how humans listen and perceive the space?

Well, by not having an auditory system not in a "stressed" mode – as in "not its usual steady state." It's in a "flat" (steady state) mode; it's not looking for missing environmental information, it already knows where it is. It doesn't accentuate any of the environmental cues. That's partially what they were doing with LEDE. They wanted that to come, they just did it in a very strange way. For FTB, having the reflective front wall and these two diffusers in the ceiling, the two in the back provides just enough information when you make sound in a room that the brain actually calibrates through these reflections. It's able to say, "Okay, I know where I am. The room makes sense. I'm not stressed by the environment. I have control over what's going on." In FTB terms, these are all called "environmental cues." They feed back environmental information by interacting with "self-noise cues" – the noise we produce in the room."

Link to article: https://tapeop.com/interviews/btg/135/thomas-jouanjean-northward-acoustics/
 

Curvature

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All of it.

You missed 90% of the explanation.

It explains how the rooms work. They're only hemi-anechoic in the speakers to room and speakers to engineer path - not the engineer to room path. They use a psycho-acoustic principle called self-noises cues. It's a key aspect of the design. These aren't anechoic rooms to the users at all.

We don't share detailed design data with strangers (or competitors for that matter) so you would not have the information and knowledge to read that data since it is simply not publicly available. All of this is proprietary and the reason why we survive as a company in today's pro audio world. We do share 100% with clients though, that have full access to everything, at any point in time.

The whole explanation:

This is your Front-To-Back [FTB] Control Room and Mastering Suite standard. What would be the basic tenets of construction that guarantee this?

The system is two-fold. I looked at how the room should behave to be problem-free, but also I tied in the subject of how we perceive sound in an entirely different way. In the old Live End, Dead End [LEDE] system, they used the Hass kicker [see sidebar] and other effects to feed environmental info back to the engineer about the space. In a Reflection-Free Zone [RFZ, a more modern version of LEDE] it is a little bit easier, because you have reflective areas in front of the room. RFZs use geometry to create a reflection-free zone around the sweet spot, so they sound a little more natural than the ones that had been deadened, such as old LEDE rooms with an absorptive front of the room. But the RFZ rooms don't really get rid of energy until it is far down in the room, and they'll still feed back something – a diffused version of the Hass kicker – which is basically like introducing distortion in the system. You're adding a variable between the engineer and the speaker, and that variable is related to the direct interaction between the speaker and the room. To me, that's always been, "Why would you want to do that?" Also, that Hass kicker was related to the size of the live room on the other side. That Hass kicker had to be within a certain time frame compared to the time frame of the live room. It made studios incompatible between one another, due to the time frame of the live rooms being different. There were a lot of very blurry areas, and it was running in circles. You justify Paper A with Paper B, and there was not anything I could grab onto; it was just a matter of opinion, at that point. I didn't like that. I decided FTB was a way to still provide environmental feedback to the engineer that did not involve the speakers, or anything related to speaker-to-engineer and speaker-to-room response. The idea is very basic. What is another source of sound in the room that I can use, besides the speakers? It is us. It's the noise we make when we walk, talk, and enter the room. From studies, I knew quite well what HRTF [Head-Related Transfer Function] is; I knew how long it would take for the brain to actually calibrate to a space, what it needs to do that, and what the auditory system would consider a "natural" space.

AG: Not everyone knows what the idea of a head-related transfer function is.

It's basically the influence of the torso, the head, and the pinna – the shape of the ear – on how we perceive sound. So that's the transfer; the influence of all of that on the way we hear. For example, the pinna will give you a lot of information about elevation from the reflection inside your ear. Another aspect is that it's like a fingerprint – everyone has a different set of ears. Part of the auditory system's response is acquired when you're born; it's embedded in your DNA. The other part you are learning as a kid by moving your head around; your brain learns how to identify objects around you from learning what it sounds like when it comes from this direction or that direction.

AG: Why is that important when you're building a room that is semi-anechoic?

Well, our brains and hearing systems don't like to be in anechoic environments. It's very unnatural. What you see is constantly correlated by the brain to what you hear. If you're in a dead, anechoic space, the cues that your brain receives about the space don't match the visual cues. The whole auditory system will distort its steady state response in a way that it will become a lot more sensitive to small reflections, high-frequencies, and anything that can give the brain detail more environmental data about the space. Everything will be enhanced. If you get your brain in that mindset, and then you play music, what you hear is not flat, in the sense that your brain will add a series of filters in between because it's looking for missing environmental information.

AG: It's overcompensating.

Yeah. That's why engineers complain that they add too much reverb or too much delay in dead rooms. Mixes are imbalanced when they move out of the room. The responsibility is not in the room being dead, because the room might measure flat. But we don't measure flat in the space. It's a combination of these two things that makes a room translate.

More how humans listen and perceive the space?

Well, by not having an auditory system not in a "stressed" mode – as in "not its usual steady state." It's in a "flat" (steady state) mode; it's not looking for missing environmental information, it already knows where it is. It doesn't accentuate any of the environmental cues. That's partially what they were doing with LEDE. They wanted that to come, they just did it in a very strange way. For FTB, having the reflective front wall and these two diffusers in the ceiling, the two in the back provides just enough information when you make sound in a room that the brain actually calibrates through these reflections. It's able to say, "Okay, I know where I am. The room makes sense. I'm not stressed by the environment. I have control over what's going on." In FTB terms, these are all called "environmental cues." They feed back environmental information by interacting with "self-noise cues" – the noise we produce in the room."

Link to article: https://tapeop.com/interviews/btg/135/thomas-jouanjean-northward-acoustics/
Fairly informal interview.

I can understand the need for confidentiality. But manufacturers have used this principle to their advantage to sell junk, false promises or mediocrity.

Maybe you aren't willing to divulge trade secrets. Fair enough. But beyond the work you do for individual clients, no one will get the education they need.

Here we do the best we can discuss the subjects, look up papers etc. Maybe you could share the papers you see as most fundamental to your approach? We may be able to understand it from the ground up, or your reasons for preferring ATCs.
 

Geert

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Up to +/- 30 degrees they look almost the same.

As I mentioned I only posted these graphs to show what controled directivity looks like. But as people seem to prefer an ATC versus Genelec battle; the Genelec is about 2, 5dB down at 10kHz, the ATC more than 8dB...

Screenshot_20220912_181522.jpg
 
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Avp1

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And where exactly is my statement wrong that they come from gated measurements?

By the way the plot discussed above is not the listening window you posted but the lateral response:

1209ATCfig5.jpg


Fig.5 ATC SCM 11, lateral response family at 50", normalized to response on tweeter axis, from back to front: differences in response 90–5° off axis, reference response, differences in response 5–90° off axis.

Source: https://www.stereophile.com/content/atc-scm-11-loudspeaker-measurements

SCM11 is a DESKTOP speaker. Why do you bring off-axis issues here at all? This speaker is suppose to be 3-4 feet from your head and point straight at your ears. You cannot have the same arguments about near field desktop speakers and midfield or main monitors (or living room domestic speakers). Thus we either talk about ATC speakers below SCM40 or above that. They are made for very different use cases.
 
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