ATC speakers / Monitors

[dfuller]

Why don't they use beryllium or other advanced materials ?

Paper and fabric have plenty of advantages, as it turns out - they have incredibly high internal damping, which makes crossover design much easier - and given that ATC do basically zero EQ in their crossovers (no, I'm not joking, I've seen their crossover boards, there's basically nothing there other than the LR4 crossover filters and a couple of all passes to correct for timing between drivers), they need to have drivers that are well controlled.

 

[YSC]

Paper and fabric have plenty of advantages, as it turns out - they have incredibly high internal damping, which makes crossover design much easier - and given that ATC do basically zero EQ in their crossovers (no, I'm not joking, I've seen their crossover boards, there's basically nothing there other than the LR4 crossover filters and a couple of all passes to correct for timing between drivers), they need to have drivers that are well controlled.

TBF I personally don't care about the material if it performs well and don't fall apart after a short while, it's the final performance in the speaker that matters. One could use some crazy good drivers and make mediocore or even poor performing speakers, and some could take some low cost but good enough drivers and do miracle to make good or even great speakers, just like cooking, the raw ingridient is only one of the important part, but the final integration determines how good it can be. That's why personally I rarely look at the driver raw performance but the speaker spin data more and decide. Of course there's nothing wrong if they decide they want to make the best drivers and less effort on other fronts, as long as the objective performance is there, it's perfectly fine.

 

[mike7877]

If I worked at ATC, I'd release the following 3-way!

S-Spec Tweeter
150MM SL Woofer (to be used as midrange/midupperbass)
243MM SL Woofer

Tweeter to 150mm SL woofer would be 3rd order Butterworth at 1.6kHz
150mm SL to 243mm SL woofer would be a 4th order LR at 220Hz

And this is a fancy speaker, it's got two active crossover points you can switch between - one called "optimal dispersion", the other "optimal power"
Above is optimal dispersion, and its maximum continuous output is 103dB per cabinet. The SCM20 Pro with the S-Spec tweeter is crossed at 2.1kHz (3rd order Butterworth), and is rated for 108dB continuous. Crossing at 1.6kHz instead of 2.1 cuts headroom by 5dB (mechanical excursion), so there it is! Lol. 103dB.

Switching the crossover to optimal power mode (when you need to damage your (or someone else's) ears, or maybe the room is big I dunno), the crossover point increases from 1.6 to 2.88kHz.

ATC has a rule that their designs always follow: always keep the wavelength of a crossover frequency longer than at least 1/2 the circumference of the driver. When you think about it, this is a great idea for fidelity and dispersion. (example if that didn't easily make sense to you: 8 inch woofer has circumference of 25 inches. Half of 25 is 12.5 - 12.5 wavelength is about 1100Hz. Means 8 inch woofer gets crossed no higher than 1100Hz)

I'm not sure why, when it came to making the SCM20 Pro Mk2s, ATC chose to not follow their very own rule. The rule they always follow in every design of theirs. Whatever the reason, my speaker follows their rule, anvd it uses the 3" dome on their "Super Linear" driver base (in the form of the 150mm SL woofer), which may be even better than their regular S-Spec mid-dome they're famous for, because the dome doesn't use the SLMM (super linear magnetic material) that linearizes the magnetic field, greatly reducing harmonic distortion (esp 3rd). This modified (improved) dome also then reproduces down to 220Hz instead of 380, pushing the crossover frequency below almost all vocals, instead of the middle! Not that it ever matters with their other speakers - they always sound great.. But maybe this speaker would sound even better! On paper it looks like it would. Even if it didn't I'm sure it'd still sound great.

 

[dfuller]

TBF I personally don't care about the material if it performs well and don't fall apart after a short while, it's the final performance in the speaker that matters. One could use some crazy good drivers and make mediocore or even poor performing speakers, and some could take some low cost but good enough drivers and do miracle to make good or even great speakers, just like cooking, the raw ingridient is only one of the important part, but the final integration determines how good it can be. That's why personally I rarely look at the driver raw performance but the speaker spin data more and decide. Of course there's nothing wrong if they decide they want to make the best drivers and less effort on other fronts, as long as the objective performance is there, it's perfectly fine.

Material really makes very little difference at the end point, but it certainly makes a difference at design stage. Getting away with little to no filtering outside of pass filters requires drivers without significant resonances in or near their intended passbands.

 

[YSC]

Material really makes very little difference at the end point, but it certainly makes a difference at design stage. Getting away with little to no filtering outside of pass filters requires drivers without significant resonances in their intended passbands.

Sure, but that's also one aspect or way to achieve the goal also, what's important is the end result, nothing wrong to try to be the best of the best in a single aspect, but it matters as the speaker only perform as good as it's weakest link

 

[goat76]

Sure, but that's also one aspect or way to achieve the goal also, what's important is the end result, nothing wrong to try to be the best of the best in a single aspect, but it matters as the speaker only perform as good as it's weakest link

I don't think you have to worry that much about the end result when it comes to ATC speakers, they are obviously good enough for tens of thousands of studio engineers who are dependent on “end results” every day. If these speakers work for them, they will likely work for someone who’s just will use them for listening pleasure, and for such the only end result that matters is if they suit the user's taste or not.

 

[574stereo]

ATC used to have a white paper somewhere on their website about their design criteria which included a whole section about power response/dispersion. Can’t find it any more however…

 

[Pearljam5000]

The blingiest ATCs I've ever seen lol

 

[Soniclife]

The blingiest ATCs I've ever seen lolView attachment 379224

I didn't know they made fridges.

 

[dagfinn]

ATC used to have a white paper somewhere on their website about their design criteria which included a whole section about power response/dispersion. Can’t find it any more however…

Here are some pages from an old pro gear brochure, "The Design and Development of high performance loudspeakers". Edit: and a white paper...

 

[Pearljam5000]

I don't get why ATC don't offer more colors for their pro gear
They look cooler like this

 

[Ktacos]

those atc don't look like they really fit in that room.

 

[Pearljam5000]

those atc don't look like they really fit in that room.

Why ?

 

[goat76]

It doesn't look like they can be positioned in an equilateral listening triangle without being placed too close to the listener for the size of those speakers. But it will of course be hard to to be completely sure about that just by looking at a picture, as photos can easily screw up the perceived distances.

But you could always throw out those other speakers to make better room for the real speakers.

 

[bachatero]

good enough for tens of thousands of studio engineers who are dependent on “end results” every day.

If the technical quality of a lot of newer music is anything to go by, this doesn't mean much.

 

[goat76]

If the technical quality of a lot of newer music is anything to go by, this doesn't mean very much.

Then it's your job to pinpoint those particular bad-sounding audio productions you are referring to, to the use of ATC speakers. Don't you think it's about equally as likely that those audio productions were made using Genelec, Neumann, or any other brand of speakers?

Do you have an example of a bad mix made on ATC speakers, and what exactly was it you think was technically bad with that particular audio mix?

Sorry for putting you against the wall here, but if some of you have concerns about the quality of ATC speakers, and in particular the use of ATC speakers in studios, then I think it's fair to ask you to give some specific examples of why you have those concerns. What is not fair, is to blame a particular speaker manufacturer for the state of audio productions in general.

 

[Pearljam5000]

At almost double the price
What advantages does the SCM50 have over 8361 or KH420?

 

[bachatero]

Sorry for putting you against the wall here, but if some of you have concerns about the quality of ATC speakers, and in particular the use of ATC speakers in studios, then I think it's fair to ask you to give some specific examples of why you have those concerns. What is not fair, is to blame a particular speaker manufacturer for the state of audio productions in general.

I started by checking ATC's client list to see what I might already know: https://atc.audio/client-list-pro/

As it turns out, I've known Joe Satriani's music basically my whole life but never knew until now he used ATC. I'm listening to the Engines of Creation album and it sounds just fine but is compressed out the wazoo like most other newer music.

How about Sweetwater Studios instead? https://sweetwaterstudios.com/our-work/ Check out that video and try listening to what that singer's singing. I couldn't make out many words of his, again lending credence to poor technical quality of newer music.

Put together, I can't find many examples of producers with ATC making significantly better content than the competition despite the speakers being marketed and priced that way.

With that plus the lack of measurements and the cult following, it's hard to not make a comparison to Brawndo:

Why can't we just get the frequency response and distortion charts we deserve?

 

[YSC]

Then it's your job to pinpoint those particular bad-sounding audio productions you are referring to, to the use of ATC speakers. Don't you think it's about equally as likely that those audio productions were made using Genelec, Neumann, or any other brand of speakers?

Do you have an example of a bad mix made on ATC speakers, and what exactly was it you think was technically bad with that particular audio mix?

Sorry for putting you against the wall here, but if some of you have concerns about the quality of ATC speakers, and in particular the use of ATC speakers in studios, then I think it's fair to ask you to give some specific examples of why you have those concerns. What is not fair, is to blame a particular speaker manufacturer for the state of audio productions in general.

Here comes the circular argument

If atc isn’t good enough and no need to hope for more, thousands of studios and pros won’t use it to make a living
If the bad modern music out there isn’t good, it can be something else like user error or they can be produced using something else.

Hack a few weeks ago a link shared a certain old guy endorsing an ATC using studio, then the mix he did sounds bad. We had to admit that tools are tools, and professionals are also human who have a ton of capable people as well as a ton of bad ones, and both are able to survive. And that a brand in general is good enough doesn’t mean their whole lineup is good enough or is among best in class (price?) and nothing more should be demanded to be improved. If “overall good enough for the studios” is enough, they shouldn’t be even releasing their own tweeters, the $20 ones they had been using for decades is obvious good enough for thousands of studios. And they don’t need to refresh their own product line from 20 years ago, cause there was nothing to “worry” or hope for isn’t it? Why did they even release something new then?

 

[dfuller]

those atc don't look like they really fit in that room.

Frankly, that room is a disaster.

At almost double the price
What advantages does the SCM50 have over 8361 or KH420?View attachment 379245

I'm not answering this. You've asked it 5 or 6 times just in this thread, it's not a useful question.

As it turns out, I've known Joe Satriani's music basically my whole life but never knew until now he used ATC. I'm listening to the Engines of Creation album and it sounds just fine but is compressed out the wazoo like most other newer music.

People make good and bad mixes on almost everything, but also, most audiophiles wouldn't know what is commercially desired if it bit them in the face. Density and perceived loudness are a desired quality. That said, there's so much that goes on that has nothing to do with compression. ATCs are exceptional for picking out resonances in the midrange, which is extremely valuable as they can be unpleasant if not resolved. They're good at that specifically because the mid driver is 1, wide range (it covers a bit over 4 octaves) and 2, so well behaved that you know the problems are in the music and not the speaker.