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ATC speakers / Monitors

DSJR

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According to ATC 75W (8 Ohm) should be enough to drive the 40s. I did not hear any difference in sound quality when connecting them to a Hegel H120, a Musical Fidelity X150 or boXem Arthur 3409/N2. However, I am only listening at moderate levels. I never had the feeling that the 40s are bad speakers I just think that they are too expensive...
I was a hooligan once but not for many years now and my hearing losses are only recent - I'd say 300WPC was just about 'adequate' back then :) I said in a previous post that there used to be three levels of ATC reproduction, the passives, the 50A's and 100A's and the biggies, this before the 150A arrived. The twin bass driver models probably have dire dispersion pattern in free space for all I know, but the extra in dynamic contrasts was incredible I recall, appreciating the SL improvements in distortion and low-level 'hear-through' ability. And yes I repeat, I'm sure there are many other monitors out there for less money that'd do it now (I think this thread forgets some of the dire boxes out there domestically for sale - and not every country sells Revel and so on very well.

Apologies for forgetting how expensive UK product is in other countries. The ATc100A's have gone up quite a bit since my tome of ownership, but they're still reasonably priced compared to *passive* alternatives like Harbeth 40.3XD's (they've shot up too and selling very well apparently), PMC Fact 12Signatures (WTF?), the fancier Dynaudio domestic passives and ubiquitous B&W efforts which turn up in so many mastering suites and control rooms, or at least used to...
 

YSC

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Define 'normal listening room.'

SCM40A's in a UK living room (25' x 12' or 'squarer) with 7' 6" ceilings 'sound' absolutely fine I feel. A friend has 35's (the ancestor model) bi-amped with two Quad 606's (very capable, cheap here used and easy to service long term if necessary) and is also happy, but then he's a music lover not a recording or mastering engineer.

I think (please) that 'we' need to accept that different rooms exist in size *and construction* around the world and where our brick and plaster boxes here can do all manner of things in the bass, the often larger timber constructed rooms in the US for example may well absorb bass more and make smaller ATC's sound bas slight or bass-overdamped - measurements be damned.

It's all very well getting the Klippel side of things right, but speakers need to be listened to as well and half a dB at the mid to tweeter crossover can be audible - maybe sorting dispersion there is also what we're hearing, but I firmly believe it's still a juggling act as regards tweeter power handling if crossed over too low and obviously dispersion of the driver handling upper mids.

So easy for armchair 'experts' to dive in and criticise and/or praise. I'm sure ALL the top makers/designers of monitors are fully aware of the above and tweak accordingly. ATC make a domestic CD/preamp which I think works well (bench performance unknown), so they must have someone there (hopefully) who's aware of digital tech in pro monitoring these days. Mind you, back in my Jurassic times with the brand, of most speakers out there, you 'plonked 'em down,' plugged 'em in and off they went, with mercifully little anal positioning worries compared to the fussy inferior domestic speaker-fare out there in the UK market.
1/4 wave length is ~7', and half wavelength boost is ~14', so the problem of SBIR of any speaker inside will have those modes affected, just will one percieve or prefer the uncorrected response or not is another story, having the tools in hand would always be beneficial than having none. and off axis uneveness will colour the sound, so despite all the previous debates, when the member ask if the SCM40 v2 passive at said price is the way to go, where I assume he won't be able to get all his options in his location to decide which is the best for him, a guss from the armchair data is better than just put it in and hope it sound fine, chances are everything not too dramatically harsh in reputable brands will sound absolutely fine in a real listening room also and owner can just be happy, see how many of real bad "hifi" brands out there where ppl keep "upgrading" and tuning by ear.

The existance of different rooms in sizes and construction is precisely why all these correction packages are out there, put it this way, it is to make bad stuffs less bad, which the bad stuff exist in >90% of consumer's room, so more likely than not is useful.

Dispersion from mids upward with waveguide as control would be a way better solution of tweeter to mid crossover causing power handling issue also, but then those are in the data and one would likely know what SPL they are targetting for more than the FR or dispersion.

and finally, I don't know about how different the V2 is compared to V1, but the V1 seems to have a up to 4db valley centered on 200 hz and another one dipping at 2khz to 5khz by like 3-5db, this sould well be audible, the larger active ATCs are a lot better and handle high SPL really well, though with questionable dispersion pattern will fare much better IMO, and SCM40 v2 don't seems like what a bigger SCM11 where the member asking said he likes

SCM40 v1:
http://www.avmentor.net/reviews/2014/atc_scm40_2.shtml

SCM11 v1:

ok or put it this way, if @elvisizer have a chance to buy and return his short listss in his room, with the tools he likely would use (say, REW, roon, GLM, or nothing at all). just go get all those and see which one you enjoy most, including eye candy portion of enjoyment. or if you just want something sounding fine and have brand preference, go with your preferred brand. if you can't demo in your place and hope for the better potential performer for wider variety of music, do look at thte well measuring ones.
 

YSDR

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The twin bass driver models probably have dire dispersion pattern in free space for all I know, but the extra in dynamic contrasts was incredible I recall, appreciating the SL improvements in distortion and low-level 'hear-through' ability.
Did you heard twin bass ATC model(s)? If so, which one?
 

fpitas

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For those of you interested, Troels Gravesen has info on the midrange ATC dome.


Jim
It's a nice enough driver. Like Troels said though, you would think any number of small cone drivers would do as well, for less money.
 

Geert

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So easy for armchair 'experts' to dive in and criticise and/or praise. I'm sure ALL the top makers/designers of monitors are fully aware of the above and tweak accordingly.

Can we please avoid the repeated 'armchair experts' insult, and the request to just trust the designers? We have different people with expertise in the discussion, and a forum will lots of reviews illustrating you shouldn't blindly trust manufacturers. Otherwise Amir might as well pull out the plug.

For example the fact that ATC chooses to design their bass reflex enclosures with low Q, what effect this has on the response and how the boundary effect affects this is no secret to most I believe.
 
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Chrise36

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I upgraded from ATC SCM 11 to ATC SCM 40. I kept the ATC SCM 11 and sold the 40s after 2 years. I think that the midrange of the bookshelf speakers sounds better. Objectively it measures flatter. The ATC SCM 40s have a dip at around 3500 Hz. I think there are better options for $ 4500. Maybe a pair of Genelecs plus sub..

It's a nice enough driver. Like Troels said though, you would think any number of small cone drivers would do as well, for less money.
Nothing till now as light and clean. Exotic metal drivers can be as good or better.
 

dfuller

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It's a nice enough driver. Like Troels said though, you would think any number of small cone drivers would do as well, for less money.
The problem is that largely cone mids have problems that domes don't. The Neumann and Bliesma 3 inchers show a lot of the same good behavior (i.e., total lack of resonances in the passband) where I have yet to see basically any cone mid do as well there (minus something like the Scanspeak Illuminators, which are similarly expensive and need a closed cabinet behind them...).

Don't get me wrong - the SM75-150 and its "super" brother with an even larger motor are not the be-all end-all of midrange drivers. But they are very, very good, especially considering they came up with this design close to 50 years ago(!).
 

YSC

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The problem is that largely cone mids have problems that domes don't. The Neumann and Bliesma 3 inchers show a lot of the same good behavior (i.e., total lack of resonances in the passband) where I have yet to see basically any cone mid do as well there (minus something like the Scanspeak Illuminators, which are similarly expensive and need a closed cabinet behind them...).

Don't get me wrong - the SM75-150 and its "super" brother with an even larger motor are not the be-all end-all of midrange drivers. But they are very, very good, especially considering they came up with this design close to 50 years ago(!).
it's a really good driver, but then only the final outcome of everything combined is important, for me personally, when used well and produce a great response with nice distortion and transient, I don't care they are $1 drivers or $100 legendary designs
 

dfuller

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it's a really good driver, but then only the final outcome of everything combined is important, for me personally, when used well and produce a great response with nice distortion and transient, I don't care they are $1 drivers or $100 legendary designs
Well sure, the final outcome is all that matters in reality. But it's easier to come up with a good final product if you start with good parts, drivers and cabinet in particular. Brute forcing mediocre drivers and a not-great cabinet into good-ish behavior is not generally as good of a solution as using decent drivers and a good cabinet design.

Speaking of that - I stumbled upon an interview with Ben Lilly (ATC's product design head) yesterday and somebody asked him about upgrading crossover parts a la GR, and he said, and I paraphrase: "Unless there's an objectively measurable difference, we don't see the point in spending the extra money for no discernible performance benefit".
 

YSC

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Well sure, the final outcome is all that matters in reality. But it's easier to come up with a good final product if you start with good parts, drivers and cabinet in particular. Brute forcing mediocre drivers and a not-great cabinet into good-ish behavior is not generally as good of a solution as using decent drivers and a good cabinet design.

Speaking of that - I stumbled upon an interview with Ben Lilly (ATC's product design head) yesterday and somebody asked him about upgrading crossover parts a la GR, and he said, and I paraphrase: "Unless there's an objectively measurable difference, we don't see the point in spending the extra money for no discernible performance benefit".
For both point I completely agrees, just to say when drivers are good enough drivers vs ultimate rank drivers, I do personally only care about the final product, namely the final FR neutrality, directivity, distortion behaviour and the SPL achievable in my use case, listening distance requirement.

I fully appreciate how ATC designs their drivers, the over all product at the asked price, not so much (still good, don't get me wrong to say them as outright crap). but then, really hope they up their game continuously, competition comes and maybe fade fast, but if one don't keep up enough, the respected old players might not fare so well in the future, which I doubt anyone like to see it happen
 

ferrellms

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Interesting comparison of D&D 8C and ATC SCM 100A
This was cool and the sound was good enough for a real useful comparison - possibly irrelevant subjective reaction (used hi end headphones) - Grimm is the best with a slightly more transparent midrange than the DD, DD next, ATC sounds colored top to bottom compared to the others. All sound damn good and one could see how any of them could garner fans.
 
OP
Pearljam5000

Pearljam5000

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This was cool and the sound was good enough for a real useful comparison - possibly irrelevant subjective reaction (used hi end headphones) - Grimm is the best with a slightly more transparent midrange than the DD, DD next, ATC sounds colored top to bottom compared to the others. All sound damn good and one could see how any of them could garner fans.
They sound great
But the price... :eek:
Screenshot_20221102_191733_Chrome.jpg
 

DSJR

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Did you heard twin bass ATC model(s)? If so, which one?
It was the 200A (studio model with 12" drivers side by side and mid-tweet on the inner edge as once recommended). Totally blew me away they did, th e'sound' far more effortless than the lower prosumer models. I measured up for a pair (at best trade prices and the sale of my 100A's I could just have done it back then - but then I met the lady who became my wife and all 'HiFi at home' thoughts went out of the window... ;)
 

Ilkless

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Oh, another "engineer" who somehow doesn't even know about foundational work from the likes of Toole, Lipshitz and Vanderkooy, Hammershøi and Møller. Unlike Gearspace and most other forums, many on this forum actually study the physics of sound reproduction and science of auditory perception. They are too informed and critical to be convinced by self-proclaimed "engineers" confidently rattling off anecdotal experience, outdated theory and simplistic rules of thumb.

Get an education, it would do all of us more good than having to listen to blather about how primitive boxes with primitive drivers crossed over primitively somehow add up to a work of ineffable genius and unimpeachable accuracy based merely on sighted listening and layman intuition of the physics of sound reproduction.

It is disingenuous to claim ATCs with room treatment somehow trump ALL other evidence-based designs with similar optimisation. That somehow the imperfections add up to something these other speakers can't have when room treatment is optimised, JUST FROM UNSUBSTANTIATED ANECDOTES. The mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance needed to make these assertions in the face of peer-reviewed research astounds me.
 

YSDR

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It was the 200A (studio model with 12" drivers side by side and mid-tweet on the inner edge as once recommended). Totally blew me away they did, th e'sound' far more effortless than the lower prosumer models.
Thanks! The old phrase comes to my mind: no replacement for displacement and the low-level hear-through ability which you mentioned is a big plus I think. Did you heard a single 15" woofer version, like the SCM150 for comparison?
 
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dfuller

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Oh, another "engineer" who somehow doesn't even know about foundational work from the likes of Toole, Lipshitz and Vanderkooy, Hammershøi and Møller. Unlike Gearspace and most other forums, many on this forum actually study the physics of sound reproduction and science of auditory perception. They are too informed and critical to be convinced by self-proclaimed "engineers" confidently rattling off anecdotal experience, outdated theory and simplistic rules of thumb.

Get an education, it would do all of us more good than having to listen to blather about how primitive boxes with primitive drivers crossed over primitively somehow add up to a work of ineffable genius and unimpeachable accuracy based merely on sighted listening and layman intuition of the physics of sound reproduction.

It is disingenuous to claim ATCs with room treatment somehow trump ALL other evidence-based designs with similar optimisation. That somehow the imperfections add up to something these other speakers can't have when room treatment is optimised, JUST FROM UNSUBSTANTIATED ANECDOTES. The mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance needed to make these assertions in the face of peer-reviewed research astounds me.
First: Who are you even talking to?
Second: Nobody said "ATCs with room treatment beat everything", that's you.
Third, take a chill pill. Coming off this aggressive isn't winning you any favors.
For both point I completely agrees, just to say when drivers are good enough drivers vs ultimate rank drivers, I do personally only care about the final product, namely the final FR neutrality, directivity, distortion behaviour and the SPL achievable in my use case, listening distance requirement.

I fully appreciate how ATC designs their drivers, the over all product at the asked price, not so much (still good, don't get me wrong to say them as outright crap). but then, really hope they up their game continuously, competition comes and maybe fade fast, but if one don't keep up enough, the respected old players might not fare so well in the future, which I doubt anyone like to see it happen
Yes - exactly! ATC build decent speakers, generally with top quality drivers in a less-than-amazing integration. I'd imagine they would do well to get a Klippel (if they don't have access to a decent anechoic chamber already) for R&D purposes.

However I have to wonder if part of their issue is the entire philosophy of "we don't do any corrective EQ in the crossover, just filters" - like... surely it isn't unreasonable to do some correction?

Thanks! The old phrase comes to my mind: no replacement for displacement and the low-level hear-through ability which you mentioned is a big plus I think. Did you heard a single 15" woofer version, like the SCM150 for comparison?
I've heard 150s and 200s, albeit not in the same room. The 200s have a larger 34mm tweeter in addition to the second woofer, so they do get substantially louder (though both will comfortably get into hearing damage territory with no complaint whatsoever).

They're both decent, though IMO the best balanced one is the 50 (it lacks bass extension in comparison, but I'd rather leave the lower octave or 2 to subs anyway to reduce IMD in the more audible midrange area). 9"->3" with the short waveguide loading ATC is fond of works better than 12"->3" or 15"->3" with regard to dispersion behavior.
 

YSDR

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They're both decent, though IMO the best balanced one is the 50 (it lacks bass extension in comparison, but I'd rather leave the lower octave or 2 to subs anyway to reduce IMD in the more audible midrange area). 9"->3" with the short waveguide loading ATC is fond of works better than 12"->3" or 15"->3" with regard to dispersion behavior.
Thanks the info! But I just seek a general consensus about 1x12" vs 1x15" vs 2x12" or maybe 1x18" woofer (not sub) selection for a 3-way DIY project. The ATCs are good in that regard, because there are models with the mentioned layouts (except the 18" of course).
 

goat76

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It was the 200A (studio model with 12" drivers side by side and mid-tweet on the inner edge as once recommended). Totally blew me away they did, th e'sound' far more effortless than the lower prosumer models. I measured up for a pair (at best trade prices and the sale of my 100A's I could just have done it back then - but then I met the lady who became my wife and all 'HiFi at home' thoughts went out of the window... ;)
I read an old interview with the guy who has that riverboat studio where I think the new Pink Floyd remixes were done, not 100% sure about that.
Anyway, the interview is a fun read and he prefers the ATC 150’s over the 200’s.

Here's a snippet of the interview but you should read it in full:

Does the four-inch dome midrange design on your ATC monitors also help even out the dispersion?
Much more so than the horn, yes. James Guthrie was the first person to come across ATC speakers; he raved about them and suggested we have a listen and check some out on the boat. He was already using them himself. We finally did, in I think around 1990. We got some ATC 200s. They were a huge step forward in terms of detail, clarity and neutrality. They appeared a bit bass light – but actually the problem was with our room, not the speakers – we needed more room tweaking. Since then, we worked over the years with the 200s, changing physical support, changing tweeters - they used to come with Audax tweeters and we then changed those to Vifa, as used on their smaller ATC50 speakers. They seemed to work in conjunction with the mids much more seamlessly through the crossover point.

So you completely customized them to your needs.
Yes. Eventually we customized them completely. We changed them from Vifas to Scan Speak Revelators, we changed the cabling several times, we moved and changed the cabinet position – height, wall proximity, angle, etc. We tried many different amplifiers and physical supports and their location several times, and in conjunction with that, we’ve continually worked on the room to give a large area behind the desk - so wherever you move about, the monitoring remains fairly constant and phase coherent. When you’re at the back racks EQing or compressing or whatever, you’re not getting any secondary reflections or funny phase problems when you move. It’s taken us years to achieve that.

So there’s a comfort in knowing that all the sound is equally distributed.
Yes, to a very large area behind the desk, which is not the case with most control rooms. It is very phase coherent when you move about, and it all relates very well. There’s almost no change for a pretty big area behind the desk.

Did you try any other monitors?
We have tried almost all types, Genelec, KRK, PMC, etc. We tried ATC 300s [but] they did not work in this room. Before the refit, putting in the 88R, we tried a pair of ATC 150s, which James had been raving about. He replaced his 200s in Tahoe with 150s. And we tried those, with a bit of juggling about. For various reasons, we preferred them to the 200s. I think the size of the baffle on the front created less of a spike from the mids going into the tweeters and a single 15” driver worked better in our room than the 2 x 12”s. And our monitoring at that point, with the 200s, had been one of the best monitoring systems in the country. Now this was yet another good step forward.

So the 150s fit the specs of the room a bit better.
Absolutely, yes.
 
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