Arturia Minifuse 2 Review (Audio Interface)

[fastfreddy666]

This headphone amp measure 26 mW in 300 ohms. Not a lot of power. I don’t know of this one but even today not many audio interfaces use USB 3. In this particular case, the type A connector seams to suggest it could be USB 3, but regardless if the BUS power is the limiting factor or not, The vast majority, starting with those tested here of low cost USB audio interface have weak HP amps. Most will also want backward compatibility, and also the USB audio standard, the streaming part is specced for USB 2 connections.

Only 25 mW in 300 ohm. Let's say you have a HD650. The specs: Sennheiser states the sensitivity is 103db/1mv which is wrong. Its's 103db/1v which is not the same. This is probably a marketing decision. 103 Db is a highter number so let's got with that. Marketing destroys everything.

Thr actual sensitivy is 98db/1 mw (1) Let's say you want to play music with them EXTREMELY loud (110 Db. I wouldn't recommended listening to these levels for too long. I suggest not more than a minute or two. But if you want to destroy your ears go for it. Personally i don't think it's very enjoyable listening at those levels but this is subjective. It's louder than in a club which mostly pump out 100 Db (average)

To get this earsplitting SPL levels on your HD650 you need 16 milliwatts (power) / Voltage 2,19V and a current of 7,3ma. Most audio engineers mix at a more reasonable level of 85 Db. The requirements drop significantly. You only need 1 mw / voltage 0,5 V / 1,8 ma


Most audio interfaces can manage that. But the most important thing to remember is that you use a headphone amplifier with an output impedance of < 2 Ohm so you will not get in trouble with low impedance headphones.


(1) https://diyaudioheaven.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/headphone-power-table-2.pdf
@solderdude. You're the GOAT (Greatest Of All Time). Or in Dutch: Jij bent de (electronics) bom!


(2) https://www.headphonesty.com/headphone-power-calculator/

 

[PeteL]

Only 25 mW in 300 ohm. Let's say you have a HD650. The specs: Sennheiser states the sensitivity is 103db/1mv which is wrong. Its's 103db/1v which is not the same. This is probably a marketing decision. 103 Db is a highter number so let's got with that. Marketing destroys everything.

Thr actual sensitivy is 98db/1 mw (1) Let's say you want to play music with them EXTREMELY loud (110 Db. I wouldn't recommended listening to these levels for too long. I suggest not more than a minute or two. But if you want to destroy your ears go for it. Personally i don't think it's very enjoyable listening at those levels but this is subjective. It's louder than in a club which mostly pump out 100 Db (average)

To get this earsplitting SPL levels on your HD650 you need 16 milliwatts (power) / Voltage 2,19V and a current of 7,3ma. Most audio engineers mix at a more reasonable level of 85 Db. The requirements drop significantly. You only need 1 mw / voltage 0,5 V / 1,8 ma


Most audio interfaces can manage that. But the most important thing to remember is that you use a headphone amplifier with an output impedance of < 2 Ohm so you will not get in trouble with low impedance headphones.


(1) https://diyaudioheaven.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/headphone-power-table-2.pdf
@solderdude. You're the GOAT (Greatest Of All Time). Or in Dutch: Jij bent de (electronics) bom!


(2) https://www.headphonesty.com/headphone-power-calculator/

I've had the HD650 in the past. I sold it because it needs too much power, It sounds very dull on basic audio interface headphone output like this one. Try it. Those sensitivity numbers are at 1 kHz, you need much more for the bass and you need headroom for the peaks that are short duration. This as been discussed many times. HD650 are inefficient, it's obviously audible. 26 mW in 300 ohms is not a lot. Your maths are correct but they only account for loudness of continuous signal at 1k, not actual music.

 

[fastfreddy666]

I've had the HD650 in the past. I sold it because it needs too much power, It sounds very dull on basic audio interface headphone output like this one. Try it. Those sensitivity numbers are at 1 kHz, you need much more for the bass and you need headroom for the peaks that are short duration. This as been discussed many times. HD650 are inefficient, it's obviously audible. 26 mW in 300 ohms is not a lot. Your maths are correct but they only account for loudness of continuous signal at 1k, not actual music.

You obviously are a subjectivist.

In the HD 650 Review of Amirm. You see this graph.

It means that audio interfaces or amplifiers with high output impedance will <beep> with your frequency response

i quote Amirm: "The high impedance means that it likes to have "high" drive voltage (at least 2 volts in my experience). The variable impedance means that if you drive it with a headphone amplifier with high impedance, e.g. a tube amplifier, it will modify its frequency response. That modification may be to your liking, or not. Better rely on equalization as I will show shortly instead of a haphazard one using a tube amp."

> 2V should be fine.

@solderdude Hi again. Explains it better than me (i'm just an amateur who tries to auto didact. It's hard) so i quote from a post from a few years ago:

"High impedance headphones require a higher voltage.
For this you need specialized portable equipment with a higher supply voltage rails or desktop equipment.
Phones can not deliver enough voltage to play them loud.
These amps do not require high current capabilities. A 300 Ohm headphone requires about 3.3x (SQR10) more voltage than a 30 Ohm headphone to play equally loud when the efficiency (dB/mW) is the same. But at the same time the 300 Ohm headphones draws 3.3x less current than the 30 Ohm headphone.

High impedance headphones require a higher output voltage and draw less current.
Low impedance headphones require a lower output voltage but draw more current."

If you still not convinced you're probably a subjectivist. "I don't trust measurements, i trust my ears"
99% of the sites on audio are of this kind. My favorite example is Head-fi and superaudiobestfriends.org
I still enjoy reading them. The problem is the EGO. The ego thinks it's always right. If you identify with your ego This leads to confirmation bias: the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values.

What you have to do is stop listening to the ego and keep an open mind without any bias. We trust in assumptions about the way the world operates that seem so obviously true that we fail to test them.

But I digress into the spiritual. I'm sorry.

You can do a test on the site of solderdude to determine how far you are on the subjectivist scale.
I had a score of 0 which means that i'm 100% objectivist. I also read some books on psychoacoustics and perceptual audio coding (mp3 / aac / opus)

I forgot to add the link: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/about/subjectivist-objectivist-or-intermediativist/

if your score is >5 you are in serious trouble. No. I'm just kidding. There's not wrong with being an subjectivist. But if you are this site is probably not the right place for you.

 

[PeteL]

You obviously are a subjectivist.

In the HD 650 Review of Amirm. You see this graph.

It means that audio interfaces or amplifiers with high output impedance will <beep> with your frequency response

i quote Amirm: "The high impedance means that it likes to have "high" drive voltage (at least 2 volts in my experience). The variable impedance means that if you drive it with a headphone amplifier with high impedance, e.g. a tube amplifier, it will modify its frequency response. That modification may be to your liking, or not. Better rely on equalization as I will show shortly instead of a haphazard one using a tube amp."

> 2V should be fine.

@solderdude Hi again. Explains it better than me (i'm just an amateur who tries to auto didact. It's hard) so i quote from a post from a few years ago:

"High impedance headphones require a higher voltage.
For this you need specialized portable equipment with a higher supply voltage rails or desktop equipment.
Phones can not deliver enough voltage to play them loud.
These amps do not require high current capabilities. A 300 Ohm headphone requires about 3.3x (SQR10) more voltage than a 30 Ohm headphone to play equally loud when the efficiency (dB/mW) is the same. But at the same time the 300 Ohm headphones draws 3.3x less current than the 30 Ohm headphone.

High impedance headphones require a higher output voltage and draw less current.
Low impedance headphones require a lower output voltage but draw more current."

If you still not convinced you're probably a subjectivist. "I don't trust measurements, i trust my ears"
99% of the sites on audio are of this kind. My favorite example is Head-fi and superaudiobestfriends.org
I still enjoy reading them. The problem is the EGO. The ego thinks it's always right. If you identify with your ego This leads to confirmation bias: the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values.

What you have to do is stop listening to the ego and keep an open mind without any bias. We trust in assumptions about the way the world operates that seem so obviously true that we fail to test them.

But I digress into the spiritual. I'm sorry.

You can do a test on the site of solderdude to determine how far you are on the subjectivist scale.
I had a score of 0 which means that i'm 100% objectivist. I also read some books on psychoacoustics and perceptual audio coding (mp3 / aac / opus)

I forgot to add the link: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/about/subjectivist-objectivist-or-intermediativist/

if your score is >5 you are in serious trouble. No. I'm just kidding. There's not wrong with being an subjectivist. But if you are this site is probably not the right place for you.

You don't have to explain me ohm's law, I am an electrical engineer.

I just picked one of the lowish powered headphone amp, the first that I found.

Aune X1s GT Review (DAC & Amp)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Aune X1s GT stereo DAC and balanced headphone amplifier. It was stent to me by the company and costs US $320. I really like the industrial design of the X1s GT: It looks even better than the picture in a dark setting with the red accepts...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This Amp push 56 mW into 300 ohms, so already 3 more dB that this can achieve. Amir conclusion was:

I tested unbalanced output using my Sennheiser HD650. There was just enough volume there to be loud enough and produce excellent fidelity. If you want to have some headroom, you would want to swap its default cord for balanced.

Conclusion: Barely enough.

Again Your calculation don't take into account peak headrooms and don't take into account that mesure efficiency is only for a 1 kHz sine. Nothing subjectivist about that.

 

[solderdude]

HD650 via 0 ohm, 10 ohm, 32 ohm and 120 ohm

Output resistances below 33 ohm will not affect tonality of the HD650

Regarding needed Voltage (and thus Power)

The part of the recording shown below was playing very softly, think soft level when listening in the evening. The level where you can easily listen for a whole evening while having the urge to turn up the volume a bit.
This is slightly below the level I usually listen at. My ‘normal’ listening level is around 75dB average.

RMS levels = 23mV = 0.0017mW = 70dB (average)
Peak levels = 245mVPP = 87mVRMS = 0.023mW = 82dB
calculated DR = 11.5dB for that 10 sec of the song.

---

playing at a very comfortable level that is a fair bit louder than the soft level. You can listen a whole evening to this level. This is slightly above the level I usually listen at.
On lower DR recordings you like to turn it down a slight nudge, higher DR recordings you may feel the urge to turn it up a tad.

RMS levels = 75mV = 0.018mW = 80dB (average)
Peak levels = 830mVPP = 293mVRMS = 0.26mW = 92dB calculated DR = 11.8dB for that 10 sec of the song.

---

playing at a comfortably loud level which is easy to listen to for 1 or 2 songs before getting the urge to turn it down to more comfortable levels.
When I really like a song I might turn up the volume to this level but turn it down again after 1 or 2 songs.

RMS levels = 236mV = 0.174 mW = 90dB (average)
Peak levels = 2.63VPP = 930mVRMS = 2.7mW = 102dB
calculated DR = 11.9dB for that 10 sec part of the song

---

playing uncomfortably loud. It is the type of level where you turn up the volume because you either like the song very much or want to listen ‘deep’ in the recording to evaluate.
Not a level you would gladly endure for the whole song.


RMS levels = 510mV = 0.81mW = 97dB (average)
Peak levels = 9.16VPP = 3.24VRMS = 33mW = 113dB
calculated DR = 16dB for that 10 sec part of the song (this was the intro of the song by the way)

---

music is playing at quite uncomfortably loud levels. One may use these levels for listening ‘in the recording’ for analytic purposes to check for distortions or find noise levels in the recording.
These levels are certainly NOT used for pleasantly enjoying music and one, for sure, cannot maintain to listen to these levels for the whole song.
It should be noted though that this is a DR13 recording and this particular part was ‘just’ 12dB DR.

When listening to DR20 recordings the average levels will be quite loud but the peak levels will reach about the same 117dB peak levels.
The amplifier started clipping the highest peaks already which added a sharp ‘edge’ at certain peaks.
I would not call those peaks anywhere near ‘pain levels’ though but ‘very loud’ none the less.


This resulted in the following (rounded off) numbers:
RMS levels = 1.35V = 5.6mW = 105dB (average)
Peak levels = 15VPP = 5.3VRMS = 88mW = 117dB peak
calculated DR = 11.9dB for that 10 sec part of the song.

I certainly do not recommend listening to these levels for longer than 1 minute or so.

---

This data shows that to drive the HD650’s to uncomfortable loud levels while still not nearing any clipping levels and having a few dB extra headroom you will need an amplifier that can supply at least 10VRMS which means the amplifier must be able to supply 300mW into 300Ω headphones. When that amplifier is low resistance and can provide the same voltage in 32Ω headphones it must be specified for 3W into 32Ω.
To drive the HD650 to comfortably loud levels you only need around 1.7VRMS = 10mW into 300Ω though.
A player that is specified to reach 100mW in 32Ω thus will be able to do that job.

 

[PeteL]

HD650 via 0 ohm, 10 ohm, 32 ohm and 120 ohm

Output resistances below 33 ohm will not affect tonality of the HD650

Regarding needed Voltage (and thus Power)

The part of the recording shown below was playing very softly, think soft level when listening in the evening. The level where you can easily listen for a whole evening while having the urge to turn up the volume a bit.
This is slightly below the level I usually listen at. My ‘normal’ listening level is around 75dB average.

RMS levels = 23mV = 0.0017mW = 70dB (average)
Peak levels = 245mVPP = 87mVRMS = 0.023mW = 82dB
calculated DR = 11.5dB for that 10 sec of the song.

---

playing at a very comfortable level that is a fair bit louder than the soft level. You can listen a whole evening to this level. This is slightly above the level I usually listen at.
On lower DR recordings you like to turn it down a slight nudge, higher DR recordings you may feel the urge to turn it up a tad.

RMS levels = 75mV = 0.018mW = 80dB (average)
Peak levels = 830mVPP = 293mVRMS = 0.26mW = 92dB calculated DR = 11.8dB for that 10 sec of the song.

---

playing at a comfortably loud level which is easy to listen to for 1 or 2 songs before getting the urge to turn it down to more comfortable levels.
When I really like a song I might turn up the volume to this level but turn it down again after 1 or 2 songs.

RMS levels = 236mV = 0.174 mW = 90dB (average)
Peak levels = 2.63VPP = 930mVRMS = 2.7mW = 102dB
calculated DR = 11.9dB for that 10 sec part of the song

---

playing uncomfortably loud. It is the type of level where you turn up the volume because you either like the song very much or want to listen ‘deep’ in the recording to evaluate.
Not a level you would gladly endure for the whole song.


RMS levels = 510mV = 0.81mW = 97dB (average)
Peak levels = 9.16VPP = 3.24VRMS = 33mW = 113dB
calculated DR = 16dB for that 10 sec part of the song
(this was the intro of the song by the way)

---

music is playing at quite uncomfortably loud levels. One may use these levels for listening ‘in the recording’ for analytic purposes to check for distortions or find noise levels in the recording.
These levels are certainly NOT used for pleasantly enjoying music and one, for sure, cannot maintain to listen to these levels for the whole song.
It should be noted though that this is a DR13 recording and this particular part was ‘just’ 12dB DR.

When listening to DR20 recordings the average levels will be quite loud but the peak levels will reach about the same levels.
The amplifier started clipping the highest peaks already which added a sharp ‘edge’ at certain peaks.
I would not call those peaks anywhere near ‘pain levels’ though but ‘very loud’ none the less.


This resulted in the following (rounded off) numbers:
RMS levels = 1.35V = 5.6mW = 105dB (average)
Peak levels = 15VPP = 5.3VRMS = 88mW = 117dB peak
calculated DR = 11.9dB for that 10 sec part of the song.

I certainly do not recommend listening to these levels for longer than 1 minute or so.

---

This data shows that to drive the HD650’s to uncomfortable loud levels while still not nearing any clipping levels and having a few dB extra headroom you will need an amplifier that can supply at least 10VRMS which means the amplifier must be able to supply 300mW into 300Ω headphones. When that amplifier is low resistance and can provide the same voltage in 32Ω headphones it must be specified for 3W into 32Ω.
To drive the HD650 to comfortably loud levels you only need around 1.7VRMS = 10mW into 300Ω though.
A player that is specified to reach 100mW in 32Ω thus will be able to do that job.

Excellent write up, just don't fully get: "When listening to DR20 recordings the average levels will be quite loud but the peak levels will reach about the same levels" Wouldn't the Peak be rightfully at the same level but the average softer? More Dynamic range> average level further from the peaks.

 

[solderdude]

Excellent write up, just don't fully get: "When listening to DR20 recordings the average levels will be quite loud but the peak levels will reach about the same 117dB peak levels" Wouldn't the Peak be rightfully at the same level but the average softer? More Dynamic range> average level further from the peaks.

Added the words '117dB peak' it read a bit crooked indeed.

 

[dr0ss]

device bought used in ~2015

Audio equipment should last longer than that, however!

Not so hard to find replacements knobs, though.

I agree, have replaced sticky knobs with handmade new wood knobs (replaces one nice feel with another). However, sometimes (like with my interfaces, and some old ThinkPads) the whole thing is coated in the stuff, and removal is a PITA.
(TBH, I've gotten pretty good at stripping the coating off the Roland interfaces.)

 

[pseudoid]

HD650 via 0 ohm, 10 ohm, 32 ohm and 120 ohm

Nice and painstaking write-up.
But how comes your penguin is not listening to the HD650s?

Cruelty?

 

[solderdude]

It is actually listening to a prototype Massdrop headphone that never happened photoshopped on its head.

There are even, till today, never seen graphs of it.

 

[Ecaroh]

The Minifuse is bus powered so doesn’t need a separate plug socket and is a lot smaller than the id14.
The monitor control is not multifunctional as on the id14. The software mixer/gain control is a lot simpler to use.
Having said all that it is down to personal preference. I am over 70 and need things to be ultra simple.

Hi Pauper and others, Interesting. I need it to be pretty simple too. Wondering if there's any reason to suppose the Arturia is simpler to use than the Focusrite Scarlett...?

 

[Strato007]

Hi!
I am planning to get an audio interface... I dont want to spend more than 150 USD...
These are my options:
* Arturia Minifuse 1/2 (because of the soft complement)
* Audient EVO 4 (seems like has the best audio quality due to pre amps chips ¿?)
* M-Audio M-Track Solo (price and MAudio pre amps chip)
* Teyun Q24 (Chi-Fi - lowest cost, good specs but I didnt find much information about it...) - I would like to try it seriously!

I want it to make podcast with a mic Audio Technica AT2020... and use the function Loop back to record voice along with music.

Thoughts?

 

[Sombreuil]

Buy the one with the most stable and recent drivers. Avoid third party drivers such as ASIO4ALL as much as possible, they tend to be less stable.
For podcast they're all more than good enough, I'd focus on drivers' stability and cost, and connectivity in case you need the USB hub on the back.
If the compagny doesn't provide their own drivers on their website--> run away.

 

[Strato007]

Buy the one with the most stable and recent drivers. Avoid third party drivers such as ASIO4ALL as much as possible, they tend to be less stable.
For podcast they're all more than good enough, I'd focus on drivers' stability and cost, and connectivity in case you need the USB hub on the back.
If the compagny doesn't provide their own drivers on their website--> run away.

thanks for your advice. You are wright!

I'd go for Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 3Gen or Arturia Minifuse 2

 

[Sombreuil]

If you hesitate between the two, check out the plugins they offer with the interface. I'm not sure that you'd find a use for it since it's for podcast in your case, but who knows. For podcast/streaming, Presonus released an interface for that specific purpose last month, with a pretty neat software. I'm not sure about the price though, but definitely under $200.

 

[pseudoid]

It is actually listening to a prototype Massdrop headphone that never happened photoshopped on its head.
There are even, till today, never seen graphs of it.

I can't figure out what the first sentence says.
I think the second sentence says it was only available as "vapor-ware" and/or made of "unobtainium".
Yes?

 

[solderdude]

It was a prototype that was never produced.

 

[Jayzqa]

Have anyone tested minifuse with L50 or similar amp?

I have minifuse on my desk and was thinking to get L50 or DX3 pro+ to compliment my Sennheisers because the output is passable but I would like some more oomph. Knowing that L50 has a lot's of more power but DX3 pro+ would give also a clean measuring DAC.

Is the DAC improvement hearable in real world or should I just go with pure amplification route?

 

[AnalogSteph]

Is the DAC improvement hearable in real world or should I just go with pure amplification route?

Ultrasonic noise levels excepted, the Audiofuse makes a decent if unspectacular line-level DAC. (*) I doubt an amp as good as the L50 would be particularly troubled by those (unlike Amir's AP), the headphones certainly wouldn't. That being said, the slightly cheaper DX3 Pro+ should still be plenty for any Sennheisers, it goes 10 dB louder than the Minifuse with a 300 ohm load already... it's only an extra 3 dB for the L50 from there, if with more headroom for quieter parts. Might be the more sensible choice after all.

For an even cheaper option (plan C), you could also run the Audiofuse headphone out into an L30 (II). (You wanted fewer options, not more? Oops.)

*) Mind you, I've seen midrange onboard audio with better output dynamic range...

 

[Jayzqa]

Ultrasonic noise levels excepted, the Audiofuse makes a decent if unspectacular line-level DAC. (*) I doubt an amp as good as the L50 would be particularly troubled by those (unlike Amir's AP), the headphones certainly wouldn't. That being said, the slightly cheaper DX3 Pro+ should still be plenty for any Sennheisers, it goes 10 dB louder than the Minifuse with a 300 ohm load already... it's only an extra 3 dB for the L50 from there, if with more headroom for quieter parts. Might be the more sensible choice after all.

For an even cheaper option (plan C), you could also run the Audiofuse headphone out into an L30 (II). (You wanted less options, not more? Oops.)

*) Mind you, I've seen midrange onboard audio with better output dynamic range...

Thank you for the response.

I may end up for the L50 because much simpler setup with DAW + stuff and I also already have all the cables in hand.

Also I realised that I could just add new DAC to the mix if needed.

On other hand the form factor is so nice with dx3 + it still sounds very pristine to my ears atleast.