Are we hitting a bump in the golden age of cheap audio electronics?

[Down South]

Electronic payments also keep "everyone honest" when it comes to taxes

The super wealthy have tax havens that successfully hide their wealth from taxes, so the word 'everyone' doesn't actually mean everyone.

 

[Dimitri]

You can amass wealth, you can hide wealth and unless you are taking it with you , when you can only spend it electronically .... you become another electronic transactiion "like everyone else".
I like to be able to choose my method of payment for my convenience, not someone else's. But that's another thead altogether!

 

[Ze Frog]

It used to be that there were expensive audio electronics and cheap ones, and you never knew what exactly you were compromising if you got a cheap one.

Then a few things changed.

Well, first, globalization happened.

Then high performance ICs were built, which freed the manufacturers from the most of the detailed, hard to do engineering work, allowing them to focus on implementation and actual manufacturing processes, making it possible to manufacture high performance audio devices for the fraction of the cost.

Then, lead by ASR, audio equipment measurement sites showed people that they are not compromising on sound quality by buying these cheap products.

Result of that was the golden age of cheap audio electronics.

But it feels like we are hitting the top of the curve these days. The reason I think that is because I suspect most people who wanted a cheap good DAC already have one, and the newer DACs do not really offer any reason to buy them over the ones we already have. I think we might be looking at dropping sales now, and unless they can bring a meaningful innovation to the market, I am not sure what will Topping, SMSL and Fosi and others be selling next year to keep their companies running.

Does this make sense to you?

In theory I guess, but people like to change DAC's when a new chip comes out, seems to be the big fad in current Hi-fi trend. To be honest, most DAC chips these days, if implemented correctly are so darn good there's little point in my eyes. He'll my favourite CD player in my collection is a Marantz CD63 MK KI Signature, and that's running old Burr Brown DAC if memory serves correct, and that sounds absolutely fine to me.

 

[Svperstar]

i bought a cheap 5g $100 mobile phone that is fhd 4gb/128gb and really does everything so well i question why anyone needs a $2,000 iphone 15

I have a 512 gig S21 Ultra that my old job paid for. I have a ton of FLAC files and the 512 gigs let me copy over my whole music collect intact, when Android was new I used to have to convert all of my lossless files to 256k vbr in order to make them fit. Not anymore.

 

[Down South]

In theory I guess, but people like to change DAC's when a new chip comes out, seems to be the big fad in current Hi-fi trend. To be honest, most DAC chips these days, if implemented correctly are so darn good there's little point in my eyes. He'll my favourite CD player in my collection is a Marantz CD63 MK KI Signature, and that's running old Burr Brown DAC if memory serves correct, and that sounds absolutely fine to me.

I bought that model s/hand in 92 and used it continuously until 2018, only thing that failed was the on/off push button. Bought the 6007 and it betters it easily with the ability to play files as well. The h/amp is excellent.

 

[Ze Frog]

I bought that model s/hand in 92 and used it continuously until 2018, only thing that failed was the on/off push button. Bought the 6007 and it betters it easily with the ability to play files as well. The h/amp is excellent.

You may have had a slightly earlier model, the one I'm referring to only got released in 1996. Should imagine it's forebare was mighty good also though.

I still use mine fairly often, the drawer is a bit loose after years of abuse, aside from that it's literally just something that keeps on going. Also the the Marantz PM 52 KI Signature, although sadly that snuffed it about 3 years ago. I think I liked both so much because back it the 90's I could only dream of attaining them. Regarding the amplifier, for some reason the models afterwards and before just don't sound as nice.

 

[Down South]

You may have had a slightly earlier model, the one I'm referring to only got released in 1996. Should imagine it's forebare was mighty good also though.

I still use mine fairly often, the drawer is a bit loose after years of abuse, aside from that it's literally just something that keeps on going. Also the the Marantz PM 52 KI Signature, although sadly that snuffed it about 3 years ago. I think I liked both so much because back it the 90's I could only dream of attaining them. Regarding the amplifier, for some reason the models afterwards and before just don't sound as nice.

It's been a long time, you are right I bought it s/hand in 97. You need to check out the 6007, it is that good and without mods. Tonight I may try the CD I took delivery of the other day - the Blues Brothers.

 

[A Surfer]

Retracted. Doesn't make sense to fuel anything. Carry on everyone, nothing to see here.

 

[A Surfer]

Windows is, at least currently anything but a hateful operating system. 2002 was a long time ago. I haven't seen a Blue screen of death in probably a decade and everything I ever try installing works like a charm with no fuss. My brother has both PC and Apple and is a system integrator and architect and thinks both are great platforms. As do I. I don't build any of my identity from my gear or computer OS.

 

[Ze Frog]

Windows is, at least currently anything but a hateful operating system. 2002 was a long time ago. I haven't seen a Blue screen of death in probably a decade and everything I ever try installing works like a charm with no fuss. My brother has both PC and Apple and is a system integrator and architect and thinks both are great platforms. As do I. I don't build any of my identity from my gear or computer OS.

I don't know about that, Windows 11 is a bit of a car crash in some regards with certain programmes. I had a right time of it moving from windows 10 in regards to Photoshop as I have to use an older version as it has better choice of lighting effects for the emulation I do for MFME.

I wouldn't ever go over to Apple though, largely due to cost and I need windows for a lot of stuff I do. Interestingly Windows 8 was much derided, although in my mind I preferred it over Windows 11, Windows 11 just felt like it wasn't really completed upon release, and even now in some regards. I'd be tempted to go Linux though, apparently a lot more compatible these days.

 

[mhardy6647]

Windows' current feature is the annoying barrage of messages to buy Windows-related stuff. You know, like turn on cloud backup.
Umm, yeah, no thanks, I'm good.

Last week, I was getting these little messages on the wake-up screen to see my 2023 XBox year in review or something like that.
Yeah... no XBox here -- in 2023, nor in any year before that. So, thanks, Microsoft, for downloading that mission-critical update for my O/S.

Now -- if you'll excuse me, I have to go yell at some clouds. EDIT: Maybe tilt at a few windmills, too -- you know, long as I'm at it.

 

[A Surfer]

I don't know about that, Windows 11 is a bit of a car crash in some regards with certain programmes. I had a right time of it moving from windows 10 in regards to Photoshop as I have to use an older version as it has better choice of lighting effects for the emulation I do for MFME.

I wouldn't ever go over to Apple though, largely due to cost and I need windows for a lot of stuff I do. Interestingly Windows 8 was much derided, although in my mind I preferred it over Windows 11, Windows 11 just felt like it wasn't really completed upon release, and even now in some regards. I'd be tempted to go Linux though, apparently a lot more compatible these days.

Interesting, in a former life I used Photoshop quite a bit, and just love it. Wish that it was still a meaningful part of me life. So many good memories of learning to use Photoshop. I can't help but feel that any operating system that is truly evolving and trying to embrace where the user is going at that social evolutionary level that I think Windows aspires to achieving, it is bound to have a few hitches. In particular, I also feel there is almost an intentional economic pressure to orphan past iterations of programs so that new revenue is captured.

I remember trying Linux partitions on my Windows machines back in the day. Some great versions, I think the last one that I even tried was Ubuntu back around probably 2004? I have no doubt that Linux is getting way more user friendly.

 

[A Surfer]

Windows' current feature is the annoying barrage of messages to buy Windows-related stuff. You know, like turn on cloud backup.
Umm, yeah, no thanks, I'm good.

Last week, I was getting these little messages on the wake-up screen to see my 2023 XBox year in review or something like that.
Yeah... no XBox here -- in 2023, nor in any year before that. So, thanks, Microsoft, for downloading that mission-critical update for my O/S.

Now -- if you'll excuse me, I have to go yell at some clouds.

Doesn't everybody try and sell all of the time? I rather doubt that Apple is any less guilty, or Sony.

 

[A Surfer]

Thankfully for those who don't feel the love from MS or Apple, there are open source products. It takes all kinds to make the world go round right?

 

[mhardy6647]

Doesn't everybody try and sell all of the time? I rather doubt that Apple is any less guilty, or Sony.

Linux distros don't seem to.

Neither of my "real" computers are capable of supporting Win11 (i.e., without hacking the installation process, which I do understand is do-able). When Win10 hits EOL (i.e., end of support), I will probably bite the bullet and move to a Linux morph.

I do have (as many of y'all likely know, since my bag of tricks is pretty small) an older version of Linux Mint running on an ancient IBM/Lenovo R-90 EDIT: R60 lappie that I use mostly as a terminal to use the 'music server' s/w on my NAS. It's... fine. A little tedious but fine. I have this thing for obsolete hardware . Many years back, I had a Dell minitower running Ubuntu and I got fairly adept at using it... but time passed and I went back to good old Windows on the not-so-obsolete hardware.




Mrs. H does have a cheap-ish Lenovo lappie running Win11 and it's... OK. No worse than Win10, with a couple of niggling, yet nagging, exceptions. I wouldn't want to use it, but I would, and could, if'n I have to.

 

[Ze Frog]

Interesting, in a former life I used Photoshop quite a bit, and just love it. Wish that it was still a meaningful part of me life. So many good memories of learning to use Photoshop. I can't help but feel that any operating system that is truly evolving and trying to embrace where the user is going at that social evolutionary level that I think Windows aspires to achieving, it is bound to have a few hitches. In particular, I also feel there is almost an intentional economic pressure to orphan past iterations of programs so that new revenue is captured.

I remember trying Linux partitions on my Windows machines back in the day. Some great versions, I think the last one that I even tried was Ubuntu back around probably 2004? I have no doubt that Linux is getting way more user friendly.

Nice, what did you do? Were you a graphic designer?

I've only been doing Photoshop for a year, literally learnt just for hobby purposes, I make fruit machines that are exactly the same program as real life but can be played in windows.

Like this, but this is before the reels and alpha's are added in emulator, just the 'on' image. Turned from first image into second...

 

[A Surfer]

Nice, what did you do? Were you a graphic designer?

I've only been doing Photoshop for a year, literally learnt just for hobby purposes, I make fruit machines that are exactly the same program as real life but can be played in windows.

Like this, but this is before the reels and alpha's are added in emulator, just the 'on' image. Turned from first image into second...

That is really interesting, nice work. I used to do website design and that included a lot of web graphics. I also fell in love with Photoshop and was in non-commercial ways teaching myself some of the more advanced Photoshop techniques for working with photographs and creating digital art such as possible with PS. Alas, I stopped years ago and my skills are cold, but I can still use Photoshop fairly well when I need to colour correct a picture, or make a web graphic.

I miss those creative days. I was active doing web site design and web marketing from 1999 through until about 2009/10 I would say. The good old days before the Internet became what it is today (although some aspects of it are still ok). Cheers.

 

[pablolie]

The windows 11 compatibility stuff is a scam. Makes no sense. I have little doubt they'll eventually be forced to disable the completely artificial check.

As to OS stuff, I can work with any of them at work and none is magically better or worse. For my own needs, Linux Ubuntu desktop it is.

 

[Ze Frog]

That is really interesting, nice work. I used to do website design and that included a lot of web graphics. I also fell in love with Photoshop and was in non-commercial ways teaching myself some of the more advanced Photoshop techniques for working with photographs and creating digital art such as possible with PS. Alas, I stopped years ago and my skills are cold, but I can still use Photoshop fairly well when I need to colour correct a picture, or make a web graphic.

I miss those creative days. I was active doing web site design and web marketing from 1999 through until about 2009/10 I would say. The good old days before the Internet became what it is today (although some aspects of it are still ok). Cheers.

Sounds like you really miss it, could you not get back into it? Even freelance?

Always liked creative based stuff, but I couldn't do it as a job, I am used to farm work and being outdoors and get a bit fidgety after say 30 minutes at a computer. Although I'm fast becoming a lot more patient in that regard.

 

[pablolie]

You certainly strongly implied it... your words were

That is NOT true for Unix. Different flavours of Unix are still in use, that are not Linux, and" innovation" happens on at least some of those platforms. I repeat this as a point of accuracy.

Unix is basically innovated out of Linux these days. It's just the open source licenses that make a difference.

As far as Apple and Microsoft go, it's just a matter of face keeping. They are hush about the open code they reuse in their OS, but they do reuse open code (as does anyone else). But their reason for deviation is not innovation, it is control. Just like Amazon with their FireOS. In any case, innovation in the OS is marginal and never as relevant to users as innovation at an application level. We can agree to that, I am sure.

In fact, I find one-sided "OS innovation" utterly annoying these days, when for some reason the "keepers of the OS castle" for no good reason update UI stuff even though what was there worked perfectly well, and it's just change for change's sake and forces new meaningless visuals on users.

Apple do not contribute to the Linux kernel code. If you have direct evidence otherwise, post here. Please. I'd like to see it.

They most certainly use Linux (not MacOS) all over their cloud infrastructure, and you can bet they contribute to several Linux Foundation open source projects... which sometimes requires kernel updates. For obvious reasons they have no interest in those being public, nor is there a legal need to do so. Anyone can contribute. But the signatures in Github and others tell a different story. It would be naive to assume a trillion dollar company that uses Linux pervasively in their infrastructure refuses to add anything in there.

Apple do contribute to and use other open source projects. They have a page that lists those where they are leading or contributing heavily, Apple Open Source.

They are under no obligation to entirely disclose their involvement in every open source project.

They use other open source tools, languages and libraries as well..

Apple engineers are involved in the Asahi Linux project to run Linux on Apple Silicon software. This seems to be mainly to ensure that the Asahi code doesn't break Apple security guidelines, or break something that stops MacOS being available in dual boot.

Actually, they do their damn best to prevent Linux to *publicly* run on their latest processors. Read into it whatever you like. They are happy to do it internally, clearly. No different than Microsoft, who are still happy to sell you a server OS, while they themselves use Linux in their Azure cloud.

Open Source is a bit of warfare, as anyone involved in it can tell you. Nor Microsoft nor Apple nor Amazon will let Red Hat run Linux development. There is a lot that goes on that is not visible.

PS: Ultimately I think the whole OS discussion is unnecessary under this topic. Both Win and MacOS just add useless cost on top of a bare bones, "ungated" OS system for cheap audio.