Anybody PREFER listening to music on bookshelves or tower speakers only (without the subwoofer)?

[pseudoid]

I guess it is too late to make this a poll, or there may already be one somewhere here!
Results would be interesting to see.

 

[Jon AA]

I'm just saying that to this point, I still haven't heard it done to my satisfaction.

Out of curiosity, of these other systems you've heard, how many have been two channel systems and how many have been home theater/multichannel systems?

 

[srrxr71]

Very sorry. Got distracted by kids and dinner and messed up my post. ryanosaur pretty much said what I’m hearing and what I do. I will say there are very bass heavy recordings I will dial back the sub. Most times I think I’m right when I do this but I have to wonder if the intent wasn’t to have a nice bass thump. I’ve been listening to a ton of late 70s funk and bass guitar is driving the song.

Haha yes some songs have enough bass to give you a headache.

 

[srrxr71]

To be clear: it's not 80 Hz that you're hearing. It's the harmonics at 160 and 240 Hz, content from bass managed channels between 80 and 240 Hz, and/or any vibrations giving away the location of the sub.

Yes you are right. I ran a sweep which was okay. But then I also played from the Alan Parsons sound check 2 album the 1/3 octave tones at 20, 25, 31.5, 40, 63, 80, 100, 125Hz.

Thankfully it’s clean from 20-63Hz. There is some fireplace resonance but far less than before I stuffed it and applied monster bass panels in front of it.

80Hz causes a resonance from the left subwoofer. 125Hz causes one from the right subwoofer. Even 63Hz is not fully clean.

80Hz causes a slight resonance from the left.
100Hz causes a resonance which is centered.


Now to get here I have monster bass traps on the entire front wall from floor to 24”. Also 2 tri traps on the front wall edges.

I have 244 traps on the entire front wall from 24” to 66”.

All this work and my bass is still resonating.

No wonder people just give up on it. I did everything right. 2 subs. GLM correction. Intense acoustic panel treatments and still it’s resonant. It’s a lot better than before but still not close to prefect.

The only silver lining is that it seems to need some time to build up the resonance. So a sweep is actually quite clean. Playing the tones reveals the deficiencies.


It turns out 63-125Hz is very difficult to tame.

 

[srrxr71]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317098414_Long-term_Average_Spectrum_in_Popular_Music_and_its_Relation_to_the_Level_of_the_Percussion

Also some further interesting references within this paper.


JSmith

I tried to read it but it doesn’t play well with iPhone. Any points you got from the article?

From what I read percussion has a lot of bass and highs.

Any possibility for undertones in percussion?

 

[anotherhobby]

Haha yes some songs have enough bass to give you a headache.

I'd suspect that the vast majority of people that feel the need to turn down or adjust their sub for some songs vs others don't have their sub(s) EQ'd and room corrected. When you have a room mode with a big peak at a specific bass frequency, and a certain song keeps hitting that same frequency with a lot of energy, you get droning and booming and it sounds terrible and it's fatiguing. This is why I say subs generally suck without EQ.

Below is the room response for my home office system, both with and without EQ. With EQ it's nice and flat all the way to 20 Hz (aside from the suckout at 50 Hz that can only be fixed with a 3rd sub). I have never once had to adjust the subs because some song had too much bass, because the subs are dialed in with a nice flat response. Without EQ, I'd hate my subs with every song that had a lot of repeated bass energy around 57 Hz or 74 Hz.

 

[srrxr71]

I'd suspect that the vast majority of people that feel the need to turn down or adjust their sub for some songs vs others don't have their sub(s) EQ'd and room corrected. When you have a room mode with a big peak at a specific bass frequency, and a certain song keeps hitting that same frequency with a lot of energy, you get droning and booming and it sounds terrible and it's fatiguing. This is why I say subs generally suck without EQ.

Below is the room response for my home office system, both with and without EQ. With EQ it's nice and flat all the way to 20 Hz (aside from the suckout at 50 Hz that can only be fixed with a 3rd sub). I have never once had to adjust the subs because some song had too much bass, because the subs are dialed in with a nice flat response. Without EQ, I'd hate my subs with every song that had a lot of repeated bass energy around 57 Hz or 74 Hz.

View attachment 236654

Yes absolutely. After correcting my bass I never felt like turning down the bass. Maybe turning down the volume but that’s different.

Before DSP the option was $thousands in bass traps. After DSP it’s more like $fewer thousands + DSP correction.

My experience getting the subs and playing them even with correction is that it’s uncomfortable in the beginning. If you’re not used to it, it’s more discomforting than pleasurable. However there are too many factors. That was before all the bass traps in a different space. The correction was good but I probably missed some resonances.

Getting true accurate deep bass has more than doubled my expenditure and still is not perfect (resonances).

I can easily turn off bass management and compare.

One thing which changes is the tonality of a bass guitar does change even if the difference is just 16-45Hz at best. My in room -6dB point of the monitors is 34Hz.

The bigger yet more subtle change is while the music without the sub running has an excellent stereo image and all the notes are there it seems the image floats in the air. While with the subs on the image seems grounded.

Now this can get into all sorts of debates and talk of placebo and seeing or knowing the subs are on the ground. Or maybe the image is subtly being grounded because the subs are lower. I somehow doubt this is the reason.

I suspect more a psychoacoustic reason. Perhaps the body feeling the bass together with what the ear senses in the waves is just more believable. The brain is the key to all of this.


I wonder if just attaching a butt kicker to the chair can help with this. I have one sitting in the box. Might be time to try it.

Having been through this experience I can safely tell people to evaluate your needs and constraints first.

1. Will you sit in the sweet spot? If no get a party speaker. Many of them are actually very good.

2. Do you have neighbors? Will your kids need to be in bed at 8:30PM? Do you have a man cave? How far is it from the rest of the living space? Maybe aiming for a sub is not a good use of resources. It certainly takes a heck of a lot to get it going well. At a minimum SVS subs plus mini DSP plus $1000 in room treatment at a minimum.

3. How’s the room construction? Does it shake? Sometimes you just need to build a custom room. Now we are talking about 5 figures of expenditure.


I remember the times I bought a sub thinking it would “upgrade” my system. I can’t think of any time when a sub made anything sound better. More powerful? Sure. More like annoying in most cases. It was good for parties and partying. This applies to also full range floor standers.

Basically those just have a “sub” built in. They are setup in place for best imaging. That position is far from ideal for deep bass. I’ll stop there because this will upset people who think having full range speakers is the solution.

I’ve been there and done that. Basically you run a sine wave sweep and accept nothing can be done beyond trying to optimize for 2 things at once. At least you have dual sub which smoothes things out.

Mostly you just throw you hands in the air and accept it. You just dropped 4 figures on a new floor stander and it sounds powerful so just be thankful I guess.

It’s when you go back to your desktop setup that you realize those floor standers are great party speakers and the desktop setup is far more accurate.

I cannot blame anyone for realizing the truth. Deep bass in most practical domestic situations is more trouble than it’s worth. Many have come to that conclusion and again that’s why we have a “class A limited LF” category.

I would say forget the audiophile crazy $20k bookshelf and just get a $1-2k pro monitor and sit close to them.

 

[Chromatischism]

Huh. If you have a little knowledge and the right tools it doesn't have to be hard. I just put one sub at the front, one sub in the back, run room correction, and I have smooth bass that sounds great at any volume level. Far better than speakers alone, and I have good speakers, too. I would invite everyone in the thread over to hear my system if it were possible - just so you could hear how good it is. I'm not one to brag but I say with a lot of confidence that no one would be left wanting.

 

[srrxr71]

Huh. If you have a little knowledge and the right tools it doesn't have to be hard. I just put one sub at the front, one sub in the back, run room correction, and I have smooth bass that sounds great at any volume level. Far better than speakers alone, and I have good speakers, too. I would invite everyone in the thread over to hear my system if it were possible - just so you could hear how good it is. I'm not one to brag but I say with a lot of confidence that no one would be left wanting.

I do too. Sounds great with music. However if I run those tones I hear the resonances. Not all rooms can handle it.

I had to treat my fireplace first. I had to treat the front wall.

It’s a lot better now. But those resonances. They are still there. Much reduced but still there. We are talking about frequencies which were shaking my walls. Now with $4k in room treatments at least the wall doesn’t shake but something is shaking in here.

If the set up were not on the ground floor then I might expect floor resonance as well.

For an OCD type audiophile with a limited budget it may not be worth it.

I think my project budget more than doubled on account of the getting 20-45Hz. Subs plus room treatments and it seems I may need more treatments and another sub because the treatments rob SPL.

I wouldn’t judge anyone for not getting subs. If someone wants to get a sub or two they would do well to consider what may resonate in the room and budget in the necessary room treatments.

It sounds great with music no doubt but when I run 20,25,31,5,40,50,63,80,100,125 Hz tones I learned things I would rather not know.

I’ve always lived by the “if it sounds okay it’s okay” philosophy. Now i’m going to check everything and deploy whatever acoustic treatment I need to make it perfect. If you want it perfect it will throw unexpected hurdles at you. Nobody expects parts of their room to resonate. But it happens.

Part of that check is to run the tones. Having said that I’ve seen my grade report and will have all green once I deal with the ceiling.

The modes picked up in the report correspond exactly to the back wall and the far side wall. I will leave those alone. My waterfall looks pretty decent.

Now I could say I have an all green report so i’m done. I still have to investigate the resonances I hear.

I wouldn’t have any need to berate someone who prefers to have clean resonance free mids and high and would cut off the bass for that reason. A lot of people have knowingly or unknowingly opted for that.

I have come to like my deep bass but I also understand that I am giving something up for it potentially. Depending on the song and its bass line.

The next move would be to construct the room with solid walls lined with MLV and whatever the acoustician recommends. Domestic spaces are not really meant for this. Hopefully I can write back in 10 years that my room is properly constructed and treated.

Right now it’s a compromise. I didn’t think so until I ran the tones. Once I ran them I learned something. If I just tested with music I’d think everything is perfect. Even I just went by the grade report I’d think everything is fine. Maybe it’s all fine but once you’ve heard the resonance you know something is not perfect or at least close to it.

 

[Geomancer1115]

My bookshelves produce just the right amount of Bass that is good enough to enjoy for long music listening, I bought a Bose Sub, it has good responce and can sound really low but i cant seem to match its Phase so i took it off and keep it on its box for future matching.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Yes you are right. I ran a sweep which was okay. But then I also played from the Alan Parsons sound check 2 album the 1/3 octave tones at 20, 25, 31.5, 40, 63, 80, 100, 125Hz.

Thankfully it’s clean from 20-63Hz. There is some fireplace resonance but far less than before I stuffed it and applied monster bass panels in front of it.

80Hz causes a resonance from the left subwoofer. 125Hz causes one from the right subwoofer. Even 63Hz is not fully clean.

80Hz causes a slight resonance from the left.
100Hz causes a resonance which is centered.


Now to get here I have monster bass traps on the entire front wall from floor to 24”. Also 2 tri traps on the front wall edges.

I have 244 traps on the entire front wall from 24” to 66”.

All this work and my bass is still resonating.

No wonder people just give up on it. I did everything right. 2 subs. GLM correction. Intense acoustic panel treatments and still it’s resonant. It’s a lot better than before but still not close to prefect.

The only silver lining is that it seems to need some time to build up the resonance. So a sweep is actually quite clean. Playing the tones reveals the deficiencies.


It turns out 63-125Hz is very difficult to tame.

So do you have EQ?

 

[srrxr71]

So do you have EQ?

Yes I have 20 bands pEq on each monitor and sub. The subs are corrected to flat in the listening position. But resonance could be anything. It sounds like it’s coming from the drive unit on the left but that can’t be unless the sub is defective which I doubt as it’s brand new. On the right it’s coming from somewhere. I have to investigate further.

20-20Khz sine wave sweep does not reveal this. Only playing the 1/3 octave tones. Very surprising what I heard.

Now I doubt it will show up with music and if it does the music level will drown it out. However, it’s not a good feeling to hear this. I can hear some resonances after hitting pause on some songs. But very short lived after all the treatment work.

 

[Chromatischism]

I've heard them, too. It's very annoying in the mid and upper bass tones. But I'm not sure I can hear them with music which doesn't use such output on constant tones.

 

[srrxr71]

I

I've heard them, too. It's very annoying in the mid and upper bass tones. But I'm not sure I can hear them with music which doesn't use such output on constant tones.

Agreed. It’s there. Maybe there. Probably not on music.

We must distinguish this from a poorly integrated sub which has caused me to put it back in the box after the initial wow factor.

This is nothing like that. Just a foundation for the music which is hard to describe. Maybe it makes it seem like the performers are in your room as opposed to a nice facsimile.

Just something about the tactile feel of a good sub.

 

[fpitas]

I firmmly straddle the fence on this issue. I designed my DIY speakers as tower modules, with 15" woofers in sealed boxes supporting an MTM setup. At the listening seat I get excellent bass, as long as I null a few room modes. However, when I wander behind the chair into the adjoining room, things aren't as good. No doubt if I cared about that, multiple subs scattered around strategically would be superior.

 

[frabor]

With 12-15 bass reflex and for rock/classical, i like the experience of no subs,specially on the good listening spot. Electronica, it needs subs. Bookshelves, subs also

 

[rwortman]

LightHeartedMode: well, The Undertones were a favourite of John Peel

But in music, no. In it's simplest sense, a musical sound is made up of a fundamental, plus it's harmonics. So, if you have a tone at 44Hz, it's either the fundamental (nothing lower) or it's an harmonic of, say 22Hz.
https://history_philosophy.en-academic.com/52/Greek_arithmetic%2C_geometry_and_harmonics%3A_Thales_to_Plato

You are forgetting intermodulation between tones which produces difference frequencies.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

You are forgetting intermodulation between tones which produces difference frequencies.

I think I said "in it's simplest sense", so I was referring to resonance on a string, hence the reference to Plato and the Greeks in c 500BC.

 

[Snoopy]

We are living in a apartment so having big subwoofers is out of question anyway.
But I like my small Rel TZero MK3. Integrates well into the room and just adds enough of low frequency "oomph" to the loudspeakers (wharfedale Evo 4.2).

 

[srrxr71]

You are forgetting intermodulation between tones which produces difference frequencies.

I see so even if there are no fundamentals under a certain frequency there can intermodulation under the fundamental?