Anthem to introduce new models!

[highender]

I am not familiar with Anthem processors. Do they have a ´grown up´ dsp crossover with at least up to 4th order slopes, i/o routing, and flexible crossover frequencies so that you could use it for an active 2 channel multiway configuration?

 

[Dmitri]

I agree. An inexpensive 8 channel device that doesn't try to double functionality that already comes with the display or player and a useful feature set is missing. How much would you be willing to spend?

Had to think about this. Truth, right now...nothing. Too many pans in the fire as it is....but I did a little pricing research. Currently, the Outlaw 976, 7.2 is $1000 and has XLR outs as well as rca, (pretty sweet actually) the Emotiva MC 700, 7.1 is $700, and the XMC-1, 7.2 refurbished is $1200, add $99 for Dirac Live. The XMC-2 got less than stellar reviews here.

So, given my advanced skills in marketing, manufacturing costs and net profit requirements for Anthem......and looking at the price of the 540 at $1600, I’d probably be willing to pay around 12 to 14 hundred for a 7.2 processor, basically a 540 sans amps but with all the 540 functionality. Of course, Anthem would obviously want you to couple your processor with their outboard amps, which would be a complete system price mismatch...it’ll never happen. Emotiva and Outlaw have more price equitable amps, so it makes sense for them. It’s not the market Anthem seems to be looking for, and though it appears the market’s out there, it exists as internet only sourced products and hence also skips the required brick and mortar pound of flesh. (There may be others...my “research” is defined by a few minutes on the net...)

Perhaps what we are looking for isn’t conceivable in this day and age. At this price point, People are just going to buy the 540 and use the internal amps...though a major let down there’s only 5 amplified channels with a 7.2 channel pre....so they’ll go for the 740 sweet spot instead... ...Color me snarky...

If I gotta have ARC, and the 540 tests well, I’ll probably go that direction, snag something off A-gon or Fleabay for rears (currently a 5 channel dinosaur) and call it a day. It would be a bonus if you could turn off the internal amps.

Maybe next year.

 

[Vasr]

I am not familiar with Anthem processors. Do they have a ´grown up´ dsp crossover with at least up to 4th order slopes, i/o routing, and flexible crossover frequencies so that you could use it for an active 2 channel multiway configuration?

No, these AV pre/pros are "grown up" in a different direction for a different intended purpose.

 

[Vasr]

Had to think about this. Truth, right now...nothing. Too many pans in the fire as it is....but I did a little pricing research. Currently, the Outlaw 976, 7.2 is $1000 and has XLR outs as well as rca, (pretty sweet actually) the Emotiva MC 700, 7.1 is $700, and the XMC-1, 7.2 refurbished is $1200, add $99 for Dirac Live. The XMC-2 got less than stellar reviews here.

So, given my advanced skills in marketing, manufacturing costs and net profit requirements for Anthem......and looking at the price of the 540 at $1600, I’d probably be willing to pay around 12 to 14 hundred for a 7.2 processor, basically a 540 sans amps but with all the 540 functionality. Of course, Anthem would obviously want you to couple your processor with their outboard amps, which would be a complete system price mismatch...it’ll never happen. Emotiva and Outlaw have more price equitable amps, so it makes sense for them. It’s not the market Anthem seems to be looking for, and though it appears the market’s out there, it exists as internet only sourced products and hence also skips the required brick and mortar pound of flesh. (There may be others...my “research” is defined by a few minutes on the net...)

Perhaps what we are looking for isn’t conceivable in this day and age. At this price point, People are just going to buy the 540 and use the internal amps...though a major let down there’s only 5 amplified channels with a 7.2 channel pre....so they’ll go for the 740 sweet spot instead... ...Color me snarky...

If I gotta have ARC, and the 540 tests well, I’ll probably go that direction, snag something off A-gon or Fleabay for rears (currently a 5 channel dinosaur) and call it a day. It would be a bonus if you could turn off the internal amps.

Maybe next year.

This is missing the major divide between the two camps - the codecs and licensed transceiver capabilities supported. This makes more of a difference in price than the number of channels.

The Outlaws and Emotivas and IOTAVX, etc use a SOC processor that provides the functionality they support with some minimal set of per-unit license-free codecs already built into these chips. This allows OEM/ODMs to build these units cheaply for these brands without requiring a lot of engineering to juggle boards, not that much different from building a standard reference board around a DAC. The 7.x limits primarily come from the limitations on these chips.

So, the division is more along whether you want all the codecs or you don't need the advanced codecs in which case you can use the Outlaws and IOTAVX and Emotivas. The price doesn't scale linearly just because of number of channels between this divide. The marginal cost of adding more channels is much less than the cost of adding all the licensed codecs and transceivers. So, wanting a 7.x version of a full-featured pre/pro for a lower price isn't realistic.

The codec and DRM equipped tech licensing fee for the full featured AVRs are a significant part of the cost. The Anthems and Denons cannot afford to build a pre/pro with a full complement of codecs/features at a low price because the margins would be too small to make them viable. So they bundle in commoditized amps which costs them next to nothing in BoM and being mature and stable doesn't add much in engineering or licensing costs.

It is like a value meal bundle at fast food restaurant with a low margin burger and a high margin soda. They cannot afford to sell the burger alone at a proportionately discounted price from the value meal price. This is why you also don't find full complement of pre-outs from lower end AVRs. These low-end AVRs units are designed to catch the very low end of the market which is OK with and wants an all-in-one box. Or to get people into an up-sell situation. The inclusion of the amps are like the high-margin soda in the value-meal.

They need to get into $3k+ region at the minimum to provide a full-featured pre/pro (regardless of number of channels) or a receiver with a full complement of pre-outs to make the margins worthwhile and not cannibalize their all-in-ones. Then you can take the burger out at the higher price and eat it with your own soda (amps) from elsewhere.

 

[Dmitri]

Yeah, kind of figured. Good, informative post Vasr, though my liking it doesn’t mean I’m happy with the facts of it.
We’ll see how the 540 tests. My 510 has run as a pre just fine...Just want the updated HDMI connectivity and HDCP, and I’d really like to turn off the idling amps if that option exists.

Anyway, your thorough response is much appreciated!

 

[SinnerSaint]

Yeah, kind of figured. Good, informative post Vasr, though my liking it doesn’t mean I’m happy with the facts of it.
We’ll see how the 540 tests. My 510 has run as a pre just fine...Just want the updated HDMI connectivity and HDCP, and I’d really like to turn off the idling amps if that option exists.

Anyway, your thorough response is much appreciated!

If by "idling amps" you mean unused channels of amplification, no. However not using every amplified channel allows for the powered channels to perform w/more power.
In the case of the 510: 100 W per channel w/2 channels driven & 75 W per channel w/5 channels driven.
https://www.anthemav.com/products-archived/type=av-receiver/model=mrx-510/page=specs

 

[theglobalelite]

Audioholics just posted the details:
https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/anthem-avm70-90-mrx1140-740-540

$3,499 - AVM70 Pre/Pro
$6,499 - AVM90 Pre/Pro
$3,699 - MRX1140 AVR
$2,699 - MRX740 AVR
$1,599 - MRX540 AVR

Hrm, why do processors usually cost MORE than AV Receivers? Aren't processors just receivers without the amps?

 

[amirm]

Hrm, why do processors usually cost MORE than AV Receivers? Aren't processors just receivers without the amps?

They usually have balanced outputs and fancier connectors, UI and such. Traditionally they had better performance as well.

 

[theglobalelite]

I would think that a speaker amp would cost considerably more per module to include than a mass produced common output connector, but I suspect that since processors are usually a component of a higher priced system than an all-in-one receiver's system , that's a good enough excuse to charge more for them.

 

[stunta]

I would think that a speaker amp would cost considerably more per module to include than a mass produced common output connector, but I suspect that since processors are usually a component of a higher priced system than an all-in-one receiver's system , that's a good enough excuse to charge more for them.

I think its mostly economies of scale. Most people buy receivers.

 

[markus]

They usually have balanced outputs and fancier connectors, UI and such. Traditionally they had better performance as well.

While much of that can't be found in processors anymore the question remains, why are these devices priced that high? Because they can?

 

[markus]

I think its mostly economies of scale. Most people buy receivers.

Something doesn't add up if the device with less features, the same (or even lower) cost of manufacturing and distribution is 3 or more times that much.

 

[Dmitri]

If by "idling amps" you mean unused channels of amplification, no. However not using every amplified channel allows for the powered channels to perform w/more power.
In the case of the 510: 100 W per channel w/2 channels driven & 75 W per channel w/5 channels driven.
https://www.anthemav.com/products-archived/type=av-receiver/model=mrx-510/page=specs

The point was to be able to shut down a potential source of added distortion caused by the amps being active, my base reason for preferring a simple processor with outboard amps. Plus...I just like boxes with fins and glowing leds and designing and building ventilated cabinetry with thermostatically controlled exhaust fans... ; )

 

[audioBliss]

It will be interesting to see how the AVM70/90 measure on the bench.

 

[Newman]

I’m out. I suspected s much, but the AVM 70 is crippled by the 90 in my book. $3500 to settle for second just really bugs me, (I know, I’m getting old...everything’s too damned expensive in my view) and $6500 for a pre pro is just flat insane in my book. I know there are enthusiasts out there that will likely disagree, but multiple channels for home audio and video and gee wiz codecs, cool as they are...simply aren’t worth all those shekels. Most of us do not live in that fiscal universe. Anthem’s ARC is awsome...so they can apply whatever premium they want I guess and beyond research and support max out profit... but Damn....how about a simple 7 channel pre pro with ARC and up to date HDMI and HDCP specs for the rest of us? I’m willing to pay a bit more for a 7 channel receiver “sans” amps, allowing added profit for a basically less expensive to construct pre pro so I can use my preferred outboard, or already existing amplification.

I love ARC, got a taste and they’ve got me hooked...and I applaud their contributions in that regard to my listening and viewing experience. But have mercy Anthem! Is there really not a market out there for a simpler up to date pre pro?

Am I the only one who sees the irony in walking away from AV products because they aren't simple enough?

I get your point, but IMHO Anthem don't look like they want to play in the bottom of the barrel. 7 channels is basically a retro product. Today's AV audio needs to start with Atmos, and products that can't go there (properly) are borderline irrelevant.

 

[Newman]

The AVM70 has that ARC feature for the two sub outs. So, it is just two more subs out for the AVM90 over the AVM70.

There is an online and PDF manual available now (same manual for all AVM and MRX models!) that has a spec section for all the models in a table.

Attached below.

I must say I have never seen such poor prep and sloppiness for a major product revamp from a brand manufacturer (other than a bit from Rotel).

....and the table in that pdf manual is blatantly wrong, e.g. says the prepros are 11.2. Not sure if it was downloaded from the company's public website or not.....

 

[Kal Rubinson]

The AVM70 has that ARC feature for the two sub outs. So, it is just two more subs out for the AVM90 over the AVM70.

Aye. There's the rub.

 

[Vasr]

....and the table in that pdf manual is blatantly wrong, e.g. says the prepros are 11.2. Not sure if it was downloaded from the company's public website or not.....

I downloaded that manual from Anthem site before it was pulled. It is full of errors and copy-paste from previous manuals. Look at the numbered labels for the back panel. Two 1s in the picture and so all the numbered descriptions are off. Nobody bothered to proof-read it first. That is why I mentioned how sloppy the launch has been for a major revamp of the product line.

 

[gattaca]

Something doesn't add up if the device with less features, the same (or even lower) cost of manufacturing and distribution is 3 or more times that much.

Oh yeah! At one time some manufacturers offered balanced outs even on their higher end receivers. Then, in the past 15 years, these guys figured out they could remove the "amp" sections for lower costs, divide the product lines, and then upcharge $$$ for "pre-processors" only models b/c those of us playing there were willing to fork over the $ to keep their own amps. Yeah it stinks.

 

[Dmitri]

Am I the only one who sees the irony in walking away from AV products because they aren't simple enough?

I get your point, but IMHO Anthem don't look like they want to play in the bottom of the barrel. 7 channels is basically a retro product. Today's AV audio needs to start with Atmos, and products that can't go there (properly) are borderline irrelevant.

Perhaps...for processors, where relative cost to the buyer in implementation of a system is far higher than with receivers, and play to a different enthusiast market niche. In post 84 VASR gave a very thorough explanation of how a 7 channel processor would be difficult for a company to attain the necessary profit margins to bring such a product to market. Emotiva and Outlaw fill that 7 channel processor space, though as internet companies they are able to bring to market at a lesser price point, with lower cost fairly respectable amps to match, though I have no idea of sales or margins. For Emo. its likely a gateway processor....get a taste. For Outlaw, it helps sell their amps, and may not be independently profitable. I dunno.

Receivers are a different story. Just about every major company has one or more 7 channel receivers available. True, due to maintaining profit margins and costs, performance and quality may be relatively disappointing for your enthusiast, but the market is definitely there. Consider them a step up from the ever popular sound bar, subwoofer combo. Remember our perspective, we enjoy and contribute to this forum because we are enthusiasts. Most people aren’t going to install an 11.2+ channel system into their homes. Larger, more capable receivers are still cost prohibitive to many, though for some, they do provide the advantage of being able to upgrade your speaker set up down the road....somewhat mitigating the costs of “the dream” over time. I’d be curious as to how many people actually end up doing that.

The five series is your “bottom of the barrel” for Anthem. Certainly they use it to illuminate and promote sales for the 7 series as the more desirable receiver, especially by crippling it with only five amp outs. I doubt they’ll sell many of them, but they will serve their marketing purpose.

So Newman, for me...it’s just sour grapes. I want to be able to use my existing outboard amplification because it’s 200 continuous watts per channel with soup can sized capacitors and two big freakin’ toroidal transformers in a dedicated 20 amp circuit. It’s built like a damned tank and oozes old school power amp testosterone. Yup. Only five channels. I’ll add two more, and “upgrade” to seven channels and be ecstatically happy. It’s not an issue of simplicity or being an AV primitive...It’s simply all I want, and basically...all I’m willing to afford. For me $’s don’t grow on trees. If they did I’d be literally raking it in right now... I realize there’s more incredible out there...but frankly...growing up with stereo and music first, I’m not sure my attitude towards AV and how much I wish to invest, yet still get the quality I’m after has died out amongst many of us yet. Perhaps so in this particular more dedicated AV thread? Who knows.

Stated before, ultimately I’d probably get the 5 and use it as a pre....and be stuck with the added complexity, fallibility and interference caused by amps that I’ll never use. Oh well.

Cheers!