Amir, can you add "idle power consumption" etc. info on the reviews?

[frabor]

Revised the calculations adding a 20% loss on the SMPS and keeping both best and worst case

 

[BR52]

Not very clear were standby or idle starts and finishes, as a hybrid mode is defined as

"since 2013, they must not consume more than 0.5 Watts in standby or in off mode, or 1 Watt if they are on standby while displaying their status or information"

https://commission.europa.eu/energy...mode-standby-and-networked-standby-devices_en

It’s well-defined, Off or virtually off (standby waiting for a trigger)
Idle is on with nothing to do; see my car analogy

 

[frabor]

I do not think a ICE engine and a class d amplifier qualify as analogous. I can have the amp in standby mode with a display showing status and take it up to full power and stable within several 100mS from the reception of the signal. Such behavior might be possible on an electric car but not in a ICE vehicle

 

[JaccoW]

The tendency on the regulation of electronics, specially within the CE sticker and regulatory framework, is to provide sub 1W in standby. Regulations regarding harmonics and power factor correction(that I do not understand well)are mandated and have resulted in a lower consumption and units with a cleaner noise profile. Better engineering. In fact, I have the gut feeling that at mass market level Class a, a/b will go the same way of the incandescent bulb and the plasma tv after someone one calculates that all the existing a/b receivers and amps within the European Community on idle generate consume the equivalent power as several nuclear power plants. Once the CE passes regulations, then Canada and England normally came close behind, or simultaneously and the market shirks so fast that it is not cost effective to maintain multiple versions worldwide, thus the old tech eventually fades.

Electricity usage accrues very fast whenever you have 24/7/365. In the IT world is so noticeable that some times lower power consumption equipment upgrading equiment such as terminals vs pc, nas vs files servers, old servers vs new servers can pay for themselves within the lifespan of the product just in the delta of the power usage differential. Even a 5W idle device when operated in 24/7/365 will consume about 45kW/h of power yearly, that is more than 9 Dollars/Euros of power a year (at a very conservative and almost unrealistic 0.20 cent per kW/h); in a 5 year life span it would be about 50 Dollars/Euros, and I can think of some electronics I use 24/7/365 that I own where there power cost is higher that the purchase price within the lifespan

In conclusion, unless you use an equipment for a couple of hours a couple of days a week, aggregated power usage during a lifetime can accrue to a large portion of the initial purchase price. Lower power consumption, within the same type of device, normally imply better overall engineering and design and if you plan to never turn a device off or keep it on 10+ hours a day, that device will make an impact in your power bill within its life span.

Yes, I agree that measuring quiescent power of a device would be an interesting test, specially if it can be done semi automatically with very little extra effort for the testers.

Add to that some energy price spikes due to the war in Ukraine and things get expensive fast.

Yes, last winter we had an 11 times increase in the price of gas and electricity for about 1-3 months. I dread the final bill next year. Prices are still 2-3 times higher than before the war.


Consumer Price Index in the Netherlands on gas (green) and electricity (magenta)

 

[boXem]

As a starter, proper definitions between standby, idling, on, off, ... would be needed.
Off: no power consumption at all
Standby: as low consumption as possible, usually high energy eating circuits are shut down and need a bit of time to be started. Below 1 W should be expected.
On: not off nor standby. High energy eating circuits are active.
Idling: on but without playing music.

 

[BR52]

Hopefully, the message of this thread is heard by @amirm. I don't know if the interest is shared by @amirm because it's his website. And, unfortunately, more work for him.

 

[MCH]

Not very clear were standby or idle starts and finishes, as a hybrid mode is defined as

"since 2013, they must not consume more than 0.5 Watts in standby or in off mode, or 1 Watt if they are on standby while displaying their status or information"

https://commission.europa.eu/energy...mode-standby-and-networked-standby-devices_en

It is very clear. The devices covered by the regulation must have a mode, that if i remember correctly they must switch to automatically, where it consumes less than 0.5W (or whatever other value depending on the type of device). They call this "stand-by" mode.

What we call here idle mode is something completely different. In this thread refers mostly to an amplifier that is switched on but receives no signal. In other types of devices idle status might be something different or not make sense at all, but the regulation you link has nothing to say or do about that.

(well, i see others were faster)

Regarding Amir measuring it in the review threads. Sure, that would be great. But actually anyone that owns the DUT - and there is always someone that does in the forum - can measure it very easily and report back if there is interest. Not everybody has an audio analyzer but a watt meter costs 10 euros in amazon.

 

[BR52]

As a starter, proper definitions between standby, idling, on, off, ... would be needed.
Off: no power consumption at all
Standby: as low consumption as possible, usually high energy eating circuits are shut down and need a bit of time to be started. Below 1 W should be expected.
On: not off nor standby. High energy eating circuits are active.
Idling: on but without playing music.

Now the first manufacturer is here, and I know he has an eye for the energy consumption of his products.

 

[frabor]

From the regs, complete doc

(3)

‘standby mode’ means a condition where the equipment is connected to the mains power source, depends on energy input from the mains power source to work as intended and provides only one or more of the following functions, which may persist for an indefinite time: (a) reactivation function; (b) reactivation function and only an indication of enabled reactivation function; (c) information or status display;

(4)	‘reactivation function’ means a function that via a remote switch, a remote control, an internal sensor or timer provides a switch from standby mode to another mode, including active mode, providing additional functions;

(5)	‘main function’ means a function delivering the main service(s) for which the equipment is designed, tested and marketed, and which corresponds to the intended use of the equipment;

(6)	‘information or status display’ means a continuous function providing information or indicating the status of the equipment on a display, including clocks. A simple light indicator is not considered a status display;

(7)	‘active mode’ means a condition in which the equipment is connected to the mains power source and at least one of the main functions has been activated;

(8)

‘off mode’ means a condition in which the equipment is connected to the mains power source and is not providing any function, or it is in a condition providing only: (a) an indication of off mode condition; (b) functionalities intended to ensure electromagnetic compatibility under Directive 2014/30/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council (8);

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I like killer sentences without any background info. If switching on and off is the live time limiter, we have to think about good engineering. Please do the math with a Hypex- or Purify- or some other class D - amplifier with hopefully known idle consumption 24/7 or any time you leave it on. It would be great to know what's going on (measurement) so we can make a decision to take the risk if there is one.
Anyhow, repeating old myths or facts about bad engineering is no science and not really helpful in a forum with science in the name. Or do you have economic interests here?

What is wrong with what I wrote?

The idle consumption for any regular amp, regardless of class, would probably not be seen in any electricity budget in a household. Only if you leave it on 24/7 but who does that?

No old myth or whatever else you read into my comment.

I've been searching about this stuff lately.
The only valid relation I could find is that is all about power,no matter class AB or D.

The more power they are capable off,the more idle consumption they have.

On the subject,I think Amir does enough alrealy and measuring this stuff (as a whole rig is better) is nothing difficult,just get a decent device of the hundreds around intended for measuring this stuff.It's not expensive,something like 50-100 euro if you want it safe and accurate.

Of course the idle consumption of a, say 300 W power supply, could be lower than a 1000 W as it's idle loss is a handful of percentages of its nominal power. So you are right in your assessment. Also IR to A/B class there's idle current for the transistors that use power as well. But in my experience a more powerful A/B class isn't necessarily using more power idle than a low powered one. E.G. -->

The great Idle Power Consumption thread

With energy prices rising, and having my gear on for many hours a day, idle power consumption is also factor for me. But manufacturers seldom reveal how much power their products draw. They state how much it uses at standby (which is always around 0.5 W), but that is not how I use my hifi most...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Svend P]

We had this talk on the NAD M23 review as well, where the data was actually provided. So it is within reach.

Also The Great Idle Power Consumption thread really needs a different name, since it never got to be that great.

The great Idle Power Consumption thread

With energy prices rising, and having my gear on for many hours a day, idle power consumption is also factor for me. But manufacturers seldom reveal how much power their products draw. They state how much it uses at standby (which is always around 0.5 W), but that is not how I use my hifi most...

www.audiosciencereview.com