Amir, can you add "idle power consumption" etc. info on the reviews?

[xrqp]

I don't know how much extra work it would be, so maybe not a great idea. But if not too much work, when you do a review, it would be nice to know the power consumption in the various modes like standby, or idle, or normal use. Often the manufacturers do not give that info. I tried to find it for the Topping A70 Pro, and could not find it.

 

[Guddu]

I don't know how much extra work it would be, so maybe not a great idea. But if not too much work, when you do a review, it would be nice to know the power consumption in the various modes like standby, or idle, or normal use. Often the manufacturers do not give that info. I tried to find it for the Topping A70 Pro, and could not find it.

I can confirm about A07 Pro and Max, both use 7-8 watts idle when it’s powered ON but no music is played.
For normal use, depends on how much loud you are going with specific speaker load.
Example: My casual use is around 14-20 watts. This is with Elac DBR62 speakers, sitting 3.5 - 4 meters away, around 82 dB spl.

 

[BR52]

I don't know how much extra work it would be, so maybe not a great idea. But if not too much work, when you do a review, it would be nice to know the power consumption in the various modes like standby, or idle, or normal use. Often the manufacturers do not give that info. I tried to find it for the Topping A70 Pro, and could not find it.

This is a great idea. Measuring idle power takes only a few seconds and would give valuable information, especially if you live in a country with 50 ct/kWh. Some products with trigger input or touch screens consume a lot of power, even in the virtually "of state". So this state can be measured as well. @amirm can help us get an idea about the operating cost. Edit 50 € ct.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

If you do not leave your class A or class A/B amp on 24 hr/day it probably won't be noticeable on your electricity budget. And chip and class D even less.

But it would be useful to assess the longevity of the electronics inside the amp..

 

[BR52]

If you do not leave your class A or class A/B amp on 24 hr/day it probably won't be noticeable on your electricity budget. And chip and class D even less.

But it would be useful to assess the longevity of the electronics inside the amp..

I like killer sentences without any background info. If switching on and off is the live time limiter, we have to think about good engineering. Please do the math with a Hypex- or Purify- or some other class D - amplifier with hopefully known idle consumption 24/7 or any time you leave it on. It would be great to know what's going on (measurement) so we can make a decision to take the risk if there is one.
Anyhow, repeating old myths or facts about bad engineering is no science and not really helpful in a forum with science in the name. Or do you have economic interests here?

 

[frabor]

The tendency on the regulation of electronics, specially within the CE sticker and regulatory framework, is to provide sub 1W in standby. Regulations regarding harmonics and power factor correction(that I do not understand well)are mandated and have resulted in a lower consumption and units with a cleaner noise profile. Better engineering. In fact, I have the gut feeling that at mass market level Class a, a/b will go the same way of the incandescent bulb and the plasma tv after someone one calculates that all the existing a/b receivers and amps within the European Community on idle generate consume the equivalent power as several nuclear power plants. Once the CE passes regulations, then Canada and England normally came close behind, or simultaneously and the market shirks so fast that it is not cost effective to maintain multiple versions worldwide, thus the old tech eventually fades.

Electricity usage accrues very fast whenever you have 24/7/365. In the IT world is so noticeable that some times lower power consumption equipment upgrading equiment such as terminals vs pc, nas vs files servers, old servers vs new servers can pay for themselves within the lifespan of the product just in the delta of the power usage differential. Even a 5W idle device when operated in 24/7/365 will consume about 45kW/h of power yearly, that is more than 9 Dollars/Euros of power a year (at a very conservative and almost unrealistic 0.20 cent per kW/h); in a 5 year life span it would be about 50 Dollars/Euros, and I can think of some electronics I use 24/7/365 that I own where there power cost is higher that the purchase price within the lifespan

In conclusion, unless you use an equipment for a couple of hours a couple of days a week, aggregated power usage during a lifetime can accrue to a large portion of the initial purchase price. Lower power consumption, within the same type of device, normally imply better overall engineering and design and if you plan to never turn a device off or keep it on 10+ hours a day, that device will make an impact in your power bill within its life span.

Yes, I agree that measuring quiescent power of a device would be an interesting test, specially if it can be done semi automatically with very little extra effort for the testers.

 

[Sokel]

If you do not leave your class A or class A/B amp on 24 hr/day it probably won't be noticeable on your electricity budget. And chip and class D even less.

But it would be useful to assess the longevity of the electronics inside the amp..

I've been searching about this stuff lately.
The only valid relation I could find is that is all about power,no matter class AB or D.

The more power they are capable off,the more idle consumption they have.

On the subject,I think Amir does enough alrealy and measuring this stuff (as a whole rig is better) is nothing difficult,just get a decent device of the hundreds around intended for measuring this stuff.It's not expensive,something like 50-100 euro if you want it safe and accurate.

 

[BR52]

The tendency on the regulation of electronics, specially within the CE sticker and regulatory framework, is to provide sub 1W in standby. Regulations regarding harmonics and power factor correction(that I do not understand well)are mandated and have resulted in a lower consumption and units with a cleaner noise profile. Better engineering. In fact, I have the gut feeling that at mass market level Class a, a/b will go the same way of the incandescent bulb and the plasma tv after someone one calculates that all the existing a/b receivers and amps within the European Community on idle generate consume the equivalent power as several nuclear power plants. Once the CE passes regulations, then Canada and England normally came close behind, or simultaneously and the market shirks so fast that it is not cost effective to maintain multiple versions worldwide, thus the old tech eventually fades.

Electricity usage accrues very fast whenever you have 24/7/365. In the IT world is so noticeable that some times lower power consumption equipment upgrading equiment such as terminals vs pc, nas vs files servers, old servers vs new servers can pay for themselves within the lifespan of the product just in the delta of the power usage differential. Even a 5W idle device when operated in 24/7/365 will consume about 45kW/h of power yearly, that is more than 9 Dollars/Euros of power a year (at a very conservative and almost unrealistic 0.20 cent per kW/h); in a 5 year life span it would be about 50 Dollars/Euros, and I can think of some electronics I use 24/7/365 that I own where there power cost is higher that the purchase price within the lifespan

In conclusion, unless you use an equipment for a couple of hours a couple of days a week, aggregated power usage during a lifetime can accrue to a large portion of the initial purchase price. Lower power consumption, within the same type of device, normally imply better overall engineering and design and if you plan to never turn a device off or keep it on 10+ hours a day, that device will make an impact in your power bill within its life span.

Yes, I agree that measuring quiescent power of a device would be an interesting test, specially if it can be done semi automatically with very little extra effort for the testers.

I agree fully. I tried to avoid speaking about carbon footprints because they're so controversial. Anyhow, with good engineering, we can reach a lot without live quality loss.
And for measurement you need only a simple plug in powermeter and we have more transparence.

 

[ahofer]

I’m in favor of this only because it would be another thing that drives the Audiogon crowd to distraction.

 

[frabor]

Sokel said "The more power they are capable off, the more idle consumption they have"

I would say not necessarily. A class D efficiency is 85 per cent or best (up to 95%) and most of them have switching power supplies (very efficient) while a class A/B is 25% per cent at best and many have linear power supplies, much more inefficient than that. Without any advanced power managements, the idle power of a class d 200 Watts will be similar or smaller than a 100W a/b.

Smart engineers can add circuitry to detect signal and place the unit in a sleep like state when there is no signal. In that case, idle power would be very similar.

A manufacturer of subs talking about power usage a/b vs d
https://rel.net/blog/2021-11-03/system-thinking/amplifier-power-consumption/

Efficiency of linear vs switching power supplies.
"SMPS incorporate higher efficiency, reduced weight, smaller size, increased durability, and they allow a more extensive input voltage range. However, the linear power supply is typically more cost-effective, less capable, larger in size, weighs more, and less efficient. In terms of percentages, a linear power supply operates, typically, at about 60% efficiency, whereas an SMPS operates around 80% efficiency or higher.":

 

[Sokel]

Sokel said "The more power they are capable off, the more idle consumption they have"

I would say not necessarily. A class D efficiency is 85 per cent or best (up to 95%) and most of them have switching power supplies (very efficient) while a class A/B is 25% per cent at best and many have linear power supplies, much more inefficient than that. Without any advanced power managements, the idle power of a class d 200 Watts will be similar or smaller than a 100W a/b.

Smart engineers can add circuitry to detect signal and place the unit in a sleep like state when there is no signal. In that case, idle power would be very similar.

A manufacturer of subs talking about power usage a/b vs d
https://rel.net/blog/2021-11-03/system-thinking/amplifier-power-consumption/

Efficiency of linear vs switching power supplies.
"SMPS incorporate higher efficiency, reduced weight, smaller size, increased durability, and they allow a more extensive input voltage range. However, the linear power supply is typically more cost-effective, less capable, larger in size, weighs more, and less efficient. In terms of percentages, a linear power supply operates, typically, at about 60% efficiency, whereas an SMPS operates around 80% efficiency or higher.":

We're talking idle,right?

Look at mine in idle,what is it's efficiency?

https://shop.icepoweraudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/ICEpower1200AS1-2-Datasheet_1_7.pdf

Edit:For those who doesn't read charts,is about 30 watt.

 

[frabor]

Sokel said "The more power they are capable off,the more idle consumption they have"

I would say not necessarily. A class D efficiency is 85 per cent or best (up to 95%) and most of them have switching power supplies (very efficient) while a class A/B is 25% per cent at best and many have linear power supplies, much more inefficient than


"SMPS incorporate higher efficiency, reduced weight, smaller size, increased durability, and they allow a more extensive input voltage range. However, the linear power supply is typically more cost-effective, less capable, larger in size, weighs more, and less efficient.
https://resources.pcb.cadence.com/b...ing-power-supply-advantages-and-disadvantages
In terms of percentages, a linear power supply operates, typically, at about 60% efficiency, whereas an SMPS operates around 80% efficiency or higher.":

 

[BR52]

The problem with CE is that it is mostly based on self-declaration. It will only lead to consequences if someone complains. Then it triggers the Government. Some companies, especially small ones outside Europe, don't care about the regulations. Sometimes, don't trust the sticker
Anyhow, the power consumption in Standby Mode is regulated, not the idle current (from my knowledge). So knowing it can be helpful for the follow-up cost calculation (carbon footprint)

 

[Sokel]

Sokel said "The more power they are capable off,the more idle consumption they have"

I would say not necessarily. A class D efficiency is 85 per cent or best (up to 95%) and most of them have switching power supplies (very efficient) while a class A/B is 25% per cent at best and many have linear power supplies, much more inefficient than


"SMPS incorporate higher efficiency, reduced weight, smaller size, increased durability, and they allow a more extensive input voltage range. However, the linear power supply is typically more cost-effective, less capable, larger in size, weighs more, and less efficient.
https://resources.pcb.cadence.com/b...ing-power-supply-advantages-and-disadvantages
In terms of percentages, a linear power supply operates, typically, at about 60% efficiency, whereas an SMPS operates around 80% efficiency or higher.":

(look above)

((and use the "reply" button to quote a certain post,is easier )

 

[BR52]

We're talking idle,right?

Look at mine in idle,what is it's efficiency?



View attachment 331435

https://shop.icepoweraudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/ICEpower1200AS1-2-Datasheet_1_7.pdf

Edit:For those who doesn't read charts,is about 30 watt.

30W X 24 X 365 X 50€ct /1000 for nothing not switched of.

 

[Sokel]

30W X 24 X 365 X 50€ct for nothing not switched of.

Hopefully it has an auto off feature after 13 min with no signal (by default) so that saves some.
Regardless,the paranoid me always shuts them off completely at night,I don't want to wake up one night with the rig playing at 1KW (it also has auto on with signal)
I have checked hearts and stuff but you never know

 

[frabor]

Out of all the provided graphs, I find this one the most interesting. The unit comes with a built in switching power supply. The power supply design is more efficient at 230V than 115V.

Lets assume that the power supply is very efficient, according to the prior post, it would have a loss of 10%. and lets add a more realistic loss of 20%. So the rest will be the amp.

"In terms of percentages, a linear power supply operates, typically, at about 60% efficiency, whereas an SMPS operates around 80% efficiency or higher."

I marked four points. 115V best case and worst case,

at about 120W, total efficiency 70%, estimate SMSP loses 10%, amp 20%, total loses 30%, overall efficiency 70% (about 40W loss)
at about 580W, total efficiency 78%, estimate SMSP loses 10%, amp 12%, total loses 22%, overall efficiency 82% (about 105W loss)

at about 120W, total efficiency 70%, estimate SMSP loses 20%, amp 10%, total loses 30%, overall efficiency 70% (about 40W loss)
at about 580W, total efficiency 78%, estimate SMSP loses 20%, amp 8%, total loses 22%, overall efficiency 82% (about 105W loss)


I marked four points. 230V best case and worst case

at about 120W, total efficiency 70%, estimate SMSP loses 10%, amp 20%, total loses 30%, overall efficiency 70% (about 40W loss)
at about 580W, total efficiency 68%, estimate SMSP loses 20%, amp 12%, total loses 32%, overall efficiency 72% (about 160W loss)

at about 120W, total efficiency 70%, estimate SMSP loses 20%, amp 20%, total loses 30%, overall efficiency 70% (about 40W loss)
at about 580W, total efficiency 68%, estimate SMSP loses 22%, amp 10%, total loses 32%, overall efficiency 72% (about 160W loss)


This is a simplified calculation, not to be taken to be 100 per cent accurate.

"The 1200AS2 combines a single stage PFC converter with a 2x 1200 W high performance, ICEedge based class D amplifier."

 

[BR52]

Does someone run their car 24/7 idle to improve live time (not start, no warm up)?

 

[frabor]

The problem with CE is that it is mostly based on self-declaration. It will only lead to consequences if someone complains. Then it triggers the Government. Some companies, especially small ones outside Europe, don't care about the regulations. Sometimes, don't trust the sticker
Anyhow, the power consumption in Standby Mode is regulated, not the idle current (from my knowledge). So knowing it can be helpful for the follow-up cost calculation (carbon footprint)

Not very clear were standby or idle starts and finishes, as a hybrid mode is defined as

"since 2013, they must not consume more than 0.5 Watts in standby or in off mode, or 1 Watt if they are on standby while displaying their status or information"

https://commission.europa.eu/energy...mode-standby-and-networked-standby-devices_en

 

[BR52]

Out of all the provided graphs, I find this one the most interesting. The unit comes with a built in switching power supply. The power supply design is more efficient at 230V than 115V.

Lets assume that the power supply is very efficient, according to the prior post, it would have a loss of 10%. So the rest will be the amp

I marked four points. 115V best case and worst case

at about 120W, total efficiency 70%, estimate SMSP loses 10%, amp 20%, total loses 30%, efficiency 70% (about 40W loss)
at about 580W, total efficiency 78%, estimate SMSP loses 10%, amp 12%, total loses 22%, efficiency 82% (about 105W loss)

I marked four points. 230V best case and worst case

at about 120W, total efficiency 70%, estimate SMSP loses 10%, amp 20%, total loses 30%, efficiency 70% (about 40W loss)
at about 580W, total efficiency 68%, estimate SMSP loses 20%, amp 12%, total loses 32%, efficiency 72% (about 160W loss)

This is a simplified calculation, not to be taken to be 100 per cent accurate.

"The 1200AS2 combines a single stage PFC converter with a 2x 1200 W high performance, ICEedge based class D amplifier."
View attachment 331441

PLS. check the PS consumption at idle it's a very, optimistic asumption of efficiency in your calculation