Alec Baldwin shooting: Lawyer suggests potential sabotage on ‘Rust’ set.

[Blumlein 88]

Wouldn't anyone who would know anything about guns know not to put a live bullet in a gun? And to check for the same? Surely you don't need to look high and low to find someone and pay them for that job.

The results say otherwise. The armorer had only worked on one other film. There have been some people come forward to say she twice in three days had blank rounds fire when there were supposed to be no rounds. The 2nd time Nicholas Cage blew up leaving the set because it deafened him for a few minutes. So if that is true, she had shown she couldn't be counted on to handle things right.

Her 2nd job someone was killed. The guns were locked up until used, but ammo was lying about according to police reports. And police reported finding about 500 rounds on site some blanks, some dummy rounds and some live rounds. Sounds like a bad armorer to me. She would have been the one to check it. Reports vary as to whether she loaded it or just checked it. The assistant director isn't required to check it, but apparently many do. Usually the actor does not as fumbling around with a weapon can be dangerous in itself. So she sounds like the weak link.

I agree such a job isn't terribly hard. You do need to follow the simple rules religiously every single time, and some additional firearms experience is needed. There are lots of people who could do the job. In this case, someone didn't. My guess is her father, who is a long time armorer in the industry also thought the job easy. The easiest job can be botched by someone who cannot maintain focus and follow rules.

 

[Blumlein 88]

According to this and other reports, there had been two previous misfire incidents when guns contained blanks and were supposed to have been cold on the Rust set prior to the incident that killed Mrs. Hutchins. The New Mexico OHSB apparently cleared Baldwin and blamed the company for not following safety standards.

Alec Baldwin Claims He's Been 'Exonerated' In 'Rust' Set Shootings

The actor had “no authority over the matters that were the subject of the Bureau’s findings of violations,” his attorney said after regulators issued their report.

www.lamag.com

 

[617]

The results say otherwise. The armorer had only worked on one other film. There have been some people come forward to say she twice in three days had blank rounds fire when there were supposed to be no rounds. The 2nd time Nicholas Cage blew up leaving the set because it deafened him for a few minutes. So if that is true, she had shown she couldn't be counted on to handle things right.

Her 2nd job someone was killed. The guns were locked up until used, but ammo was lying about according to police reports. And police reported finding about 500 rounds on site some blanks, some dummy rounds and some live rounds. Sounds like a bad armorer to me. She would have been the one to check it. Reports vary as to whether she loaded it or just checked it. The assistant director isn't required to check it, but apparently many do. Usually the actor does not as fumbling around with a weapon can be dangerous in itself. So she sounds like the weak link.

I agree such a job isn't terribly hard. You do need to follow the simple rules religiously every single time, and some additional firearms experience is needed. There are lots of people who could do the job. In this case, someone didn't. My guess is her father, who is a long time armorer in the industry also thought the job easy. The easiest job can be botched by someone who cannot maintain focus and follow rules.

Is there any reason why live rounds would be on set other than total negligence?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Is there any reason why live rounds would be on set other than total negligence?

The reason from some of the crew, is that in off hours or down time, in a very rural area, they used the guns for plinking to pass the time. Some say that isn't uncommon, and some say those people are full of it. By some I mean people in the industry. I don't know how much authority the armorer and props officer has in such situations. Often what is formal about things is not how it is done. Myself, if I were an armorer, and the prop weapons were used for plinking I'd stop it or quit. It is just asking for this to happen.

Now, blanks fire, but lack a projectile. There is no mistaking a blank and fully live round if you even halfway look at it. Dummy rounds are made various ways and don't fire at all. I've no experience with those, but pictures would indicate there is nearly no chance to look at those and mistake them for blank or live rounds. EDIT(actually movie dummy rounds are very similar visually to live rounds. See my following post).

The description by everyone on that movie set was the call "Cold Gun" was used after the armorer checked and passed it onto the assistant director. That is only used for dummy rounds. "Hot gun" is used for guns with blanks. Live rounds should not be there. The armorer is suing the ammo company claiming they put live rounds in a box of dummy rounds. Yet even if true, she made a mistake by not checking to see the round was a dummy. The various other reports by those around vary. It really just doesn't add up. The most likely result is the armorer messed up, and she had already done that twice on her first job mixing up blanks and dummy rounds. She according to some of the crew had done that twice again on Rust prior to the deadly mistake.

I've been involved in different safety issues of other kinds. A problem I repeatedly see is when you have 3 or more levels of people supposed to check something as an additional level of safety what quickly happens in my experience is everyone sort of half asses the job assuming the other two have already checked. I've seen this over, and over, again and again. I eventually decided more than two checks for safety of something was detrimental. I had lots of arguments with superiors about it, and every time I was forced to make it more than two checks accidents happened. I don't know if something like this is what happened in the Rust movie shooting or it was just a very poor armorer who didn't stay focused and do her job well.

I assume by now, we will never know for sure what happened or it would have come out already.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Alright a little more on dummy rounds. Those used in movies are a little different and could be more easily mistaken visually. A movie dummy round looks exactly like the live rounds. It does have a regular bullet in a cartridge. Two differences. It will have primer with a dimple in it like a round that has been hit by a firing pin. A second safety factor is dummy round cartridges are empty and have two BB's in them. You shake them and hear the BB's. Live rounds are of course full of gun powder and make no noise when you shake them. Still we are back to the armorer or whomever loaded the revolver not checking for BB's by shaking the round and not looking closely to see a dimpled primer.

 

[617]

The reason from some of the crew, is that in off hours or down time, in a very rural area, they used the guns for plinking to pass the time. Some say that isn't uncommon, and some say those people are full of it. By some I mean people in the industry. I don't know how much authority the armorer and props officer has in such situations. Often what is formal about things is not how it is done. Myself, if I were an armorer, and the prop weapons were used for plinking I'd stop it or quit. It is just asking for this to happen.

Now, blanks fire, but lack a projectile. There is no mistaking a blank and fully live round if you even halfway look at it. Dummy rounds are made various ways and don't fire at all. I've no experience with those, but pictures would indicate there is nearly no chance to look at those and mistake them for blank or live rounds. EDIT(actually movie dummy rounds are very similar visually to live rounds. See my following post).

The description by everyone on that movie set was the call "Cold Gun" was used after the armorer checked and passed it onto the assistant director. That is only used for dummy rounds. "Hot gun" is used for guns with blanks. Live rounds should not be there. The armorer is suing the ammo company claiming they put live rounds in a box of dummy rounds. Yet even if true, she made a mistake by not checking to see the round was a dummy. The various other reports by those around vary. It really just doesn't add up. The most likely result is the armorer messed up, and she had already done that twice on her first job mixing up blanks and dummy rounds. She according to some of the crew had done that twice again on Rust prior to the deadly mistake.

I've been involved in different safety issues of other kinds. A problem I repeatedly see is when you have 3 or more levels of people supposed to check something as an additional level of safety what quickly happens in my experience is everyone sort of half asses the job assuming the other two have already checked. I've seen this over, and over, again and again. I eventually decided more than two checks for safety of something was detrimental. I had lots of arguments with superiors about it, and every time I was forced to make it more than two checks accidents happened. I don't know if something like this is what happened in the Rust movie shooting or it was just a very poor armorer who didn't stay focused and do her job well.

I assume by now, we will never know for sure what happened or it would have come out already.

The whole psychological issue of responsibility in groups is fascinating. Not everyone is cut out to work in safety enforcement; I think you need people who have an intrinsic distrust of groups, if that makes any sense. Someone who is not afraid of being disliked. I think we're all familiar with the stereotype of the strident, impatient IT guy - that's the guy I want in charge of firearms. I can completely see how when you have redundancy of safety checks performed by people that safety is actually diminished.

It seems to me that safety systems and practices should aim to remove the human element to as great a degree as possible. Don't tell people not to open the box, lock the box. Don't instruct people not to walk on the walkway, chain it off.

If what you say is correct, it is shocking to me that the armorer had already made mistakes on set. Even one mistake with a firearm should be cause for an investigation.

 

[amirm]

Why don't they make dummy ammunition a different color for this use?

 

[Bob from Florida]

Why don't they make dummy ammunition a different color for this use?

You mean like these?

 

[Soniclife]

Why don't they make dummy ammunition a different color for this use?

On film sets they want it to be as visually similar as possible, so that it looks real on film. Given how much you can do with cgi these days a simple post processing colour change seems simple and sensible.

 

[617]

This is a good article which tries to answer my question, which is 'how did live ammunition end up on set?'

‘Rust’ Investigation: Where Did the Live Round Come From?

The 'Rust' investigation still has yet to answer one of the key questions: Where did the live round come from?

variety.com

Apparently the live rounds were made by 'Starline Brass', which is a manufacturer that only produces dummy rounds. How could they be live?

The article suggests:
"Kenney said that a couple of years earlier, Swanson had made some “reloaded” rounds — that is, handmade live rounds — using Starline Brass components. When he heard that the fatal bullet came from a Starline Brass casing, Kenney was sure they had to have come from Swanson."

So the suggestion is that some genius off set reloaded ammunition using casings from a company that only produces dummy rounds, for the purposes of taking actors out shooting to familiarize them with the feeling of real ammunition. This was for another production.

Regarding the difference between the Starline dummy and starline reloaded live rounds:

"Even though they were the same brand, the live rounds looked slightly different from the dummies. The dummies had a gold-colored primer, while the primer on the live rounds was silver. A dummy round would also rattle when shaken — a BB is placed inside — and a live round would not."

 

[Blumlein 88]

Why don't they make dummy ammunition a different color for this use?

What Soniclife said. Most other places dummy rounds are brightly colored and lack a primer cap. On movies for close ups they want it to look real.

 

[BinkieHuckerback]

What Soniclife said. Most other places dummy rounds are brightly colored and lack a primer cap. On movies for close ups they want it to look real.

...if only there was some way of using computers to generate film images that made things look real...

 

[Blumlein 88]

This is a good article which tries to answer my question, which is 'how did live ammunition end up on set?'

‘Rust’ Investigation: Where Did the Live Round Come From?

The 'Rust' investigation still has yet to answer one of the key questions: Where did the live round come from?

variety.com

Apparently the live rounds were made by 'Starline Brass', which is a manufacturer that only produces dummy rounds. How could they be live?

The article suggests:
"Kenney said that a couple of years earlier, Swanson had made some “reloaded” rounds — that is, handmade live rounds — using Starline Brass components. When he heard that the fatal bullet came from a Starline Brass casing, Kenney was sure they had to have come from Swanson."

So the suggestion is that some genius off set reloaded ammunition using casings from a company that only produces dummy rounds, for the purposes of taking actors out shooting to familiarize them with the feeling of real ammunition. This was for another production.

Regarding the difference between the Starline dummy and starline reloaded live rounds:

"Even though they were the same brand, the live rounds looked slightly different from the dummies. The dummies had a gold-colored primer, while the primer on the live rounds was silver. A dummy round would also rattle when shaken — a BB is placed inside — and a live round would not."

Having read the article we still come back to the armorer not shake testing each round and not being careful in custody of various ammo brands lying around.

 

[amirm]

On film sets they want it to be as visually similar as possible, so that it looks real on film. Given how much you can do with cgi these days a simple post processing colour change seems simple and sensible.

Yeh, I didn't think about the situation where they want to show the bullets. In this case though, I don't think that was the case. Was it?

 

[617]

Yeh, I didn't think about the situation where they want to show the bullets. In this case though, I don't think that was the case. Was it?

I saw a video arguing that an unloaded revolver looks different than a loaded one but I would never notice in a shot where the gun was in motion and not taking up most of the screen.

I think the armorer probably deserves most of the blame, but if someone was reloading blanks and turning them into love rounds they really need to be named and shamed.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I saw a video arguing that an unloaded revolver looks different than a loaded one but I would never notice in a shot where the gun was in motion and not taking up most of the screen.

I think the armorer probably deserves most of the blame, but if someone was reloading blanks and turning them into love rounds they really need to be named and shamed.

Well Starline makes brass. They also make dummy rounds no live ammo. However, their main business is the brass cartridges to reloaders. So someone wishing to have actors shoot the real gun may have purchased the brass and loaded them without necessarily reloading dummy rounds. It all comes back to the armorer doing a poor job. She didn't inspect each round for an indented primer cap or shake them for the rattling sound. The article linked by you said they found a live round in Baldwin's bandolier. Unless somebody was sabotaging things it sounds like some live rounds got mixed in and willy nilly were on the tray with other ammo, at least one in that one pistol and in an ammo bandolier. Reloading a dummy round would require removing the bullet, and primer. It is far simpler to just load up some empty brass with a new primer, new bullet and of course putting gunpowder in it.

 

[Helicopter]

I saw a video arguing that an unloaded revolver looks different than a loaded one but I would never notice in a shot where the gun was in motion and not taking up most of the screen.

I think the armorer probably deserves most of the blame, but if someone was reloading blanks and turning them into love rounds they really need to be named and shamed.

Blanks usually get crimped, so you would never reload them again with bullets. Often the cases are longer too, like the Starline 5 in 1 cases, and souldn't fit in the gun if loaded or re-loaded with bullets. You could trim them and load them, but that is an extra step.

A regular fired case and a new bullet are the best ingredients for a dummy round. I like the idea of adding BBs. This would make it obvious it wasn't a dangerous dud without weighing it

Considering the error of having live ammo on or near the set, I had assumed the person reloading and loading ammo wasn't there.

 

[617]

Well Starline makes brass. They also make dummy rounds no live ammo. However, their main business is the brass cartridges to reloaders. So someone wishing to have actors shoot the real gun may have purchased the brass and loaded them without necessarily reloading dummy rounds. It all comes back to the armorer doing a poor job. She didn't inspect each round for an indented primer cap or shake them for the rattling sound. The article linked by you said they found a live round in Baldwin's bandolier. Unless somebody was sabotaging things it sounds like some live rounds got mixed in and willy nilly were on the tray with other ammo, at least one in that one pistol and in an ammo bandolier. Reloading a dummy round would require removing the bullet, and primer. It is far simpler to just load up some empty brass with a new primer, new bullet and of course putting gunpowder in it.

If this was my job, I would purchase blanks and dummy rounds from a vendor who only produced blanks and dummy rounds, and packaged them in a tamper-evident container of some kind. I would also, you know, check every round. I feel like ammunition is the wrong place to save money in that business.

One of the reasons I don't like movies is that, as with all expensive art forms, there is immense incentive to return a profit, which leads to a pandering sort of relationship with your audience where you feed them predictable and digestible spoonfulls of their fantasies. I love paintings. I look at hundreds of paintings over the course of a month. I cannot think of many paintings with guns in them - Andy Warhol did some, and there are historical paintings depicting the Civil and Revolutionary war. Goya's Horror's of War as well. Same thing with the music I listen to - outside of certain genres of rap and Marty Robbins, I don't listen to music which mentions weapons of any kind. Meanwhile, guns are so popular in movies that we literally have entire careers devoted to ensuring their safety on sets. Then of course you have video games where your primary interaction with the world in many games is literally to shoot things.

 

[MRC01]

... Live rounds are of course full of gun powder and make no noise when you shake them.

Live rounds aren't always completely silent. With most, you can hear and feel the powder inside shifting as you shake them. But it is a more subtle sound, easily distinguishable from a non-live round having BBs or similar inside of them.

Having read the article we still come back to the armorer not shake testing each round and not being careful in custody of various ammo brands lying around.

Yep. In my view, having professional firearms training and from what I've read here and in the news, the armorer is at fault for that incident. Even in the cases where others on set acted poorly or carelessly, the armor could and should have corrected them. Firearm safety is much like aviation safety: it's not difficult or complex, but it is unforgiving.

 

[andrewjohn007]

A clear case of Russian sabotage… an old KGB classics