Home Theatre Upgrade Discussion

[Smithg97]

Hi folks,

I'm looking for some opinions on what (if any) changes would be recommended to improve my HT setup ideally going for a setup that'll see me through to the end of my days

Current setup:

• Front L/R: Klipsch RP-6000F
• Center: Klipsch RP-600C
• Surrounds: Klipsch RP-500M
• Rear: Klipsch RP-180M
• Front Height: Klipsch RP-500SA II
• Rear Height: Klipsch RP-500SA
• Subwoofer: SVS PB-1000 Pro x2
• AVR: Denon X3700H
• Amp: Audiolab 6000A (used for 2 channel music + power amp for front L/R)
• DSP: MiniDSP Flex HT (used for 2 channel music with Audiolab amp)

My setup is used for a mixture of movies/TV, gaming & music - probably 60%, 30% & 10% respectively

Overall I'm not unhappy with my setup at all, the Klipsch are lively speakers and IMO great for movies/gaming, treble can be slightly fatiguing at times when volume is high, music is generally quite good but varies based on genre IMO but I do like the Klipsch sound but it's also not the only sound that's pleasant to my ears hence the diverse range of setups listed below

I'm considering the following options currently but keen to get other viewpoints and suggestions too;

• Option 1: Selling my RP-6000F & RP-600C and replacing with Klipsch RF-7 III & RC-64 III (net cost about £5,400
• Option 2: Selling all speakers and replacing with (net cost about £3,600) ;
  • Front L/R: JBL HDI 3800
  • Center: JBL HDI 4500
  • Surrounds: JBL HDI 1600
  • Rear: JBL HDI 1600
  • Front Height: JBL Stage 240H
  • Rear Height: JBL Stage 240H
• Option 3: Selling all speakers and replacing with (net cost about £4,500) ;
  • Front L/R: Dali Opticon 8 MK2
  • Center: Dali Opticon Vocal MK2
  • Surrounds: Dali Opticon 2 MK2
  • Rear: Dali Opticon 2 MK2
  • Front Height: Dali Alteco C1
  • Rear Height: Dali Alteco C1
• Option 4 (Baller option!): Selling all speakers and replacing with (net cost about £7,750) ;
  • Front L/R: Arendal 1723 S THX Towers
  • Center: Arendal 1723 S Centre
  • Surrounds: Arendal 1723 S Bookshelf
  • Rear: Arendal 1723 S Bookshelf
  • Front Height: Arendal 1723 S Height
  • Rear Height: Arendal 1723 S Height

I haven't heard any of the speakers above in the flesh although I do have Dali Oberon on-wall & Opticon on-wall speakers in my bedroom setup so have an idea of the sound signature of Dali speakers and have really enjoyed them so far. Aesthetics are definitely a consideration for me (WAF factor) which is why I shortlisted the above as contenders with JBL probably being my least preferred option in that regard but they are a good price. Reading up online it seems Arendal are really well regarded because of the quality of the build and fact that they're very neutral but getting a demo would be a challenge due to availability at a brick & mortar within reasonable distance to home.

The room I used as HT is the living room which is carpeted and about 5m x 4.5m rectangle with no room treatment currently but is something I'll look into in the future. My sofa is in the middle of the room about 8' from the TV/Speakers

One concern I have about changing from Klipsch to one of the other brands is amp headroom as Klipsch are so easy to drive and given that I'm looking at retaining the 7.2.4 setup using the Denon X3700H coupled with the Audiolab 6000A for front channel amp duties I'm unsure if I'll run out of juice buying something like the Arendals or Dali's

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

I'll give you a quick take, but maybe someone will be able to throw up some measurements for you and talk about the differences between the Dali and Arendal. My home theater knowledge is limited, since I don't care much about it other than I like a simple and cheap 5.1 system in place.

I think you have plenty of power for any of your options. The Denon X3700H can be set to 4 ohm, in case you were not aware.

Have you considered changing the LCR, then after confirming you want to go with that brand, selling and completing the switch? If you can sell the Klipsch quickly, this can work out well. You can run 3.2 for a while until they are sold. This can stretch the budget out a bit longer in time frame, which makes it a bit easier to reach your "baller option" if you want to go that way.

If you like Dali, that's a good reason to go with Dali. Seriously, in terms of satisfaction, that usually works very well, go with a high end of a brand you like. BUT if you are more of a "what if that was better than this" person, then taking time to decide is a good idea so you avoid regrets.

Personally, I don't think the ribbon tweeter on the Dali (xo at 14khz) would add value to me, though it adds cost to the speaker. So I doubt I would have those on my list. Arendal, I would look seriously at if I was serious about HT.

 

[GXAlan]

“treble can be slightly fatiguing at times when volume is high”

if you look at your Audiolab 6000A, the performance seems low even with high efficiency speakers at high SPLs. That is at 1.00% whereas the Denon is rated at 0.08%

First test would be to try running your fronts through the Denon. Sometimes premium amplifiers like the Audiolab are great at the 1-5W range with low noise but they also run out of power fast.

If that works, maybe consider something like the Luxman speaker switcher to allow you to use both amps with your setup and switch amps depending on your use.

 

[Smithg97]

I'll give you a quick take, but maybe someone will be able to throw up some measurements for you and talk about the differences between the Dali and Arendal. My home theater knowledge is limited, since I don't care much about it other than I like a simple and cheap 5.1 system in place.

I think you have plenty of power for any of your options. The Denon X3700H can be set to 4 ohm, in case you were not aware.

Have you considered changing the LCR, then after confirming you want to go with that brand, selling and completing the switch? If you can sell the Klipsch quickly, this can work out well. You can run 3.2 for a while until they are sold. This can stretch the budget out a bit longer in time frame, which makes it a bit easier to reach your "baller option" if you want to go that way.

If you like Dali, that's a good reason to go with Dali. Seriously, in terms of satisfaction, that usually works very well, go with a high end of a brand you like. BUT if you are more of a "what if that was better than this" person, then taking time to decide is a good idea so you avoid regrets.

Personally, I don't think the ribbon tweeter on the Dali (xo at 14khz) would add value to me, though it adds cost to the speaker. So I doubt I would have those on my list. Arendal, I would look seriously at if I was serious about HT.

Thanks Pareto for your insights i have a few responses/questions;

• How would I set the X3700H to 4 ohm?
• Yes I have considered a phased upgrade like you mention, doing LCR then replacing the rest. Looking on Arendal's website they seem to have an excellent return policy that would help me test the brand before fully committing, additionally i see that they have an 'outlet' section on the site where they offer a 10% discount for items they badge as "opened by staff for inspection, unusued" which would help keep the upgrade cost down and I believe comes with the same return rights/warranty as the new product
• I'm actually quite impulsive when it comes to buying things but the older I get the more sensible i'm becoming (i think) and given the huge expense that is home theatre i'm keen to make the (subjectively) right choice, rather than a quick one
• In summary, your recommendation would be Arendal?

 

[Smithg97]

“treble can be slightly fatiguing at times when volume is high”

View attachment 415059

if you look at your Audiolab 6000A, the performance seems low even with high efficiency speakers at high SPLs. That is at 1.00% whereas the Denon is rated at 0.08%

First test would be to try running your fronts through the Denon. Sometimes premium amplifiers like the Audiolab are great at the 1-5W range with low noise but they also run out of power fast.

If that works, maybe consider something like the Luxman speaker switcher to allow you to use both amps with your setup and switch amps depending on your use.

That's not what I see on the spec sheet for the audiolab 6000A, it's stated as <0.003%

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

• How would I set the X3700H to 4 ohm?

Before connecting speakers AVC-X3700H

manuals.denon.com

• In summary, your recommendation would be Arendal?

My recommendation to myself would be to find a different option than Dali and then make my call, after actually looking at all the measurements I could find and thinking about how things would work for each brand in my room. My room is longer and narrower than yours and I sit further from my speakers, so I likely would want less horizontal dispersion than you would want, as one example. Assuming we want the same sound that is.

Based on what I know, there is little reason to think Arendal is anything but excellent for home theater.

My recommendation to you is to do what you think best, but after you see what information comes your way here.

 

[Smithg97]

Before connecting speakers AVC-X3700H

manuals.denon.com

My recommendation to myself would be to find a different option than Dali and then make my call, after actually looking at all the measurements I could find and thinking about how things would work for each brand in my room. My room is longer and narrower than yours and I sit further from my speakers, so I likely would want less horizontal dispersion than you would want, as one example. Assuming we want the same sound that is.

Based on what I know, there is little reason to think Arendal is anything but excellent for home theater.

My recommendation to you is to do what you think best, but after you see what information comes your way here.

Thanks Pareto, I'm really fighting the urge to pull the trigger on the Arendals until I get more input (for & against)

 

[Power Pop 23]

The Denon AVR-X3700H supports Audyssey MultEQ XT32 automatic room correction and the paid ($19.99) Audyssey MultEQ Editor App (available at Google Play and Apple App stores). Amir reviewed the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app with a Denon '3600' and recommends using it.

Audyssey Room EQ Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Audyssey Room Equalization. Audyssey is standard technology in a number of Audio/Video Receivers such as the Denon AVR-X3600H I recently reviewed. The standard version in the AVR is mostly all or nothing so I downloaded the Marantz/Denon...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Oddball]

Difficult questions, but well framed.

My first consideration would be why spend on towers (or big center as applicable). Are you planning to use them in 2.0 configuration? Are you listening at levels that would exceed bookshelf SPL capabilities? You also noted that you have 2 subs (reference to 7.2.4 system), so offloading bass below 80hz is the common solution where you would get meaningful benefit from towers only with pretty loud listening level. Your MLP is 8" so pretty close and bookshelves might do in which case you might get overall better speaker for the price.

IMO towers make sense if you really like the look of them (and don't mind to pay for it), if you can't get sufficient SPL with bookshelves, or if you are running them with more complex bass management options like LFE+Main or LFE distribution in which case that will represent additional challenge to integrate that with the subs and will be successful or not based on that integration.

As far as brands you suggested, I don't have experience with Dali and there is a huge difference between Klipsch and Arendal options. Arendals will measure much better but Klipsch will have its own HT appeal and will appear to kick the bass much harder at expense of lesser performance in mid and high end, which to some extent (but not fully) could be EQd.

Just another note to limit the expectations. Klipsch RF-7 III & RC-64 III are not exactly match made in haven. Center is sealed and while it has higher clarity than RP-504 C, it does not have its low extension. The towers are ported and kick drum like there is no tomorrow, but then again, if you are going to cross them at 80hz kind of waste.

 

[Smithg97]

Difficult questions, but well framed.

My first consideration would be why spend on towers (or big center as applicable). Are you planning to use them in 2.0 configuration? Are you listening at levels that would exceed bookshelf SPL capabilities? You also noted that you have 2 subs (reference to 7.2.4 system), so offloading bass below 80hz is the common solution where you would get meaningful benefit from towers only with pretty loud listening level. Your MLP is 8" so pretty close and bookshelves might do in which case you might get overall better speaker for the price.

IMO towers make sense if you really like the look of them (and don't mind to pay for it), if you can't get sufficient SPL with bookshelves, or if you are running them with more complex bass management options like LFE+Main or LFE distribution in which case that will represent additional challenge to integrate that with the subs and will be successful or not based on that integration.

As far as brands you suggested, I don't have experience with Dali and there is a huge difference between Klipsch and Arendal options. Arendals will measure much better but Klipsch will have its own HT appeal and will appear to kick the bass much harder at expense of lesser performance in mid and high end, which to some extent (but not fully) could be EQd.

Just another note to limit the expectations. Klipsch RF-7 III & RC-64 III are not exactly match made in haven. Center is sealed and while it has higher clarity than RP-504 C, it does not have its low extension. The towers are ported and kick drum like there is no tomorrow, but then again, if you are going to cross them at 80hz kind of waste.

Hey Oddball, good questions and comments;

• Regarding Towers vs Bookshelf/monitors - I do 100% prefer the look of towers but have other considerations too; the cost of decent stands is quite high and cancels out a portion of the savings from going bookshelf/monitor route, additionally I have 2 cats who, when i'm not home, climb onto the speakers so there's a risk with bookshelves on stands with high center of gravity
• On the Klipsch comment about match of the RF-7 & RC-64 I had seen this mentioned on other forums and was a bit of a tick on the cons list for this option to be honest and is not the only con on this list as researching online suggests that the crossovers used in the RF-7's is pretty bad for a speaker of that price and also saw some mention of resonance issues with the cabinet which again...disappointing given the price

If you were forced to chose between the options i outlined above (keeping cost in mind) which way would you lean?

 

[Oddball]

As noted, don't have experience with Dali, so partial answer. I would probably go with Arendal's, but upgrade the center to full 1723 (not S). It is much smaller than 1723 S towers anyway and IMO will keep better balance with them then the S version. My only regret with 1723 design is that they are 2.5 way not full 3 way, but that might be to large extent only academic.

Having said that, this price range is extremely crowded area and potential better deals could be found with other brands.

I have never heard these tower speakers as old design and difficult to find, but on paper seem like incredible deal. I am thinking of snatching them for surrounds while still available. So this is not a recommendation, just information.

Canton Reference 3.2 DC *alle Farben* - elektrowelt24.de

Canton Reference 3.2 DC *alle Farben*

www.elektrowelt24.eu

Canton Reference 3.2 DC loudspeaker

Menu

www.stereophile.com

I have asked the reviewer to provide any insight on their value at reduced price and Kal responded diplomatically that he can't recall the sound after 15 years, but seems like a good value.

 

[Vacceo]

Before connecting speakers AVC-X3700H

manuals.denon.com

My recommendation to myself would be to find a different option than Dali and then make my call, after actually looking at all the measurements I could find and thinking about how things would work for each brand in my room. My room is longer and narrower than yours and I sit further from my speakers, so I likely would want less horizontal dispersion than you would want, as one example. Assuming we want the same sound that is.

Based on what I know, there is little reason to think Arendal is anything but excellent for home theater.

My recommendation to you is to do what you think best, but after you see what information comes your way here.

The only potential issue I see with Arendals is their center speaker, which is not very even beyond a certain angle. If that is not an issue due to not needing a wide listening position, then you're golden.

 

[Smithg97]

The only potential issue I see with Arendals is their center speaker, which is not very even beyond a certain angle. If that is not an issue due to not needing a wide listening position, then you're golden.

You mean the horizontal dispersion is inadequate? That is a slight concern....i generally sit in MLP unless other half here then i sit off to the side. My question would be is the off axis performance any worse than my current center channel: Klipsch RP-600C?

 

[Smithg97]

As noted, don't have experience with Dali, so partial answer. I would probably go with Arendal's, but upgrade the center to full 1723 (not S). It is much smaller than 1723 S towers anyway and IMO will keep better balance with them then the S version. My only regret with 1723 design is that they are 2.5 way not full 3 way, but that might be to large extent only academic.

Having said that, this price range is extremely crowded area and potential better deals could be found with other brands.

I have never heard these tower speakers as old design and difficult to find, but on paper seem like incredible deal. I am thinking of snatching them for surrounds while still available. So this is not a recommendation, just information.

Canton Reference 3.2 DC *alle Farben* - elektrowelt24.de

Canton Reference 3.2 DC *alle Farben*

www.elektrowelt24.eu

Canton Reference 3.2 DC loudspeaker

Menu

www.stereophile.com

I have asked the reviewer to provide any insight on their value at reduced price and Kal responded diplomatically that he can't recall the sound after 15 years, but seems like a good value.

Dali are very musical, my gut feeling is that they won't be in the same league as the Ardenal when it comes to HT. Those Canton's are a good looking bit of kit for sure! Not seen them widely discussed but I know Canton are a quality brand

 

[Vacceo]

You mean the horizontal dispersion is inadequate? That is a slight concern....i generally sit in MLP unless other half here then i sit off to the side. My question would be is the off axis performance any worse than my current center channel: Klipsch RP-600C?

MTM configurations are not great for centers. However, given the distances, you should have no issues.

 

[JW001]

I’m a little confused as to why you think you need any changes. ( At the beginning you said “I’m not unhappy with the setup”.) Do you run Audyssey on your Denon 3700 ? You can change the “sound signature” by applying a custom room curve in Audyssey. Also, how did you integrate your SVS 1000 subwoofers? This can have a tremendous impact on your perception of sound. Maybe, just maybe, you don’t need new speakers to make significant improvements in sound quality of your setup ?

 

[Spkrdctr]

Well, I can say with personal experience the RF7 speakers are big, mean and brutish. The seem to excel at home theater. A cannon shot or an F-1 car screaming by at 20 feet turned up loud will rip your face off. I also don't think you probably need to get new speakers but fine tune what you have. I don't know if you can EQ the treble with your AVR or not. If you can you could tame some of that sometimes harsh treble on Klipsch speakers. All in all, there is no way anyone online can tell you what is going to really audibly improve your system in your room and your speaker position and set up. You would have to try the actual speakers out and see what you think. You will have a lot of advice but most of it is shooting from the hip. Only you can hear which speakers you like. Let us know what you end up doing. Also, having a free return policy on any new speakers is a big deal. If you can get that you can try them and see what you think. Good Luck!

 

[Battlebeast]

No need to replace all the speakers all at once, just the front 3.

Of those that you list I'd go for the "baller move" and get the Arendals. I have a preference for Kef, especially in a non dedicated space.

 

[Spkrdctr]

I looked at the specs on th Arendals and I have to say they are very impressive. You could not go wrong with these for sure. That is a serious line of speakers, not for the faint of heart. If you seriously want to go to those speakers they are in the end game territory for many people. Just reading the build and specs got me all excited! I have never heard them so I will defer to those that have. Dang those are some nice speakers!

 

[GXAlan]

That's not what I see on the spec sheet for the audiolab 6000A, it's stated as <0.003%

6000A

An amplifier remains the beating heart of any high-performance audio system, a truly versatile integrated amp needs to cover many bases – digital and analogue sources, wireless connectivity for portable devices, a phono stage to cater for vinyl playback, amplification for headphones as well as...

www.audiolab.co.uk

It’s not a ton of power but it is clean power

Audiolab 6000A Amplifier/DAC Lab Report

Lab Report Some brands are more conservative than others when it comes to specifying power output (and speaker sensitivity!) but Audiolab is flying quite close to the wire with its 50W/75W 8/4ohm rating for the 6000A. With a high 246V AC mains feed it manages 2x55W/2x85W, respectively, but we've...

www.hifinews.com

Klipsch likes to quote real world SPL for efficiency with room gain as opposed to anechoic

Klipsch RP-6000F II Floorstanding Speaker Review

Klipsch RP-6000F II Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

So the 6000F II has a line around 90 dB instead of the advertised 96 dB.


To answer your questions from the first post, the HDI is probably your best choice. There is a reason why compression drivers are used for large format cinemas and concerts. In the home environment, you *should* be fine with regular tweeters but it does depend on budget and listening distances. The HDI line has been sold at nearly 50% off at times in the USA.

But a simple test still remains trying the Denon as your L/R amplifier and comparing.