Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[IamJF]

Classic power compression happens cause the voice coil heats up (to >200°C before a speaker dies). In HiFi you normally reach these levels only with some peaks -> short time period -> very little compression. But when you do party with your 6" bookshelf ... you get there but nobody cares about it ;-)

Home cinema speakers are normally capable of way higher levels. But loud scenes can take a while, compression is for sure from interest when driving ATMOS reference levels (which is A LOT, I measured my listening levels with some film scenes and I could not reach 105dBSPL(C)).

The rt60 if the room still doesn't change with level but ART correction will collapse when drivers start to compress significant. When they even compress during calibration it will be a mess.

 

[tjcinnamon]

Classic power compression happens cause the voice coil heats up (to >200°C before a speaker dies). In HiFi you normally reach these levels only with some peaks -> short time period -> very little compression. But when you do party with your 6" bookshelf ... you get there but nobody cares about it ;-)

Home cinema speakers are normally capable of way higher levels. But loud scenes can take a while, compression is for sure from interest when driving ATMOS reference levels (which is A LOT, I measured my listening levels with some film scenes and I could not reach 105dBSPL(C)).

The rt60 if the room still doesn't change with level but ART correction will collapse when drivers start to compress significant. When they even compress during calibration it will be a mess.

What about using dedicated subs as support groups for ART?

 

[Ciobi69]

What about using dedicated subs as support groups for ART?

In multi sub test thr best results were given by having multiple subs, more than 4 it could be pointless, as in a model room they were giving awesome results

 

[loddie88]

Reading through everything I can about ART in preparation for it (hopefully) coming to Denon, and I've seen it mentioned in a few posts that DIRAC/Storm discourage from using the center as a support speaker. Where is this stated and is any reasoning given?

 

[IamJF]

What about using dedicated subs as support groups for ART?

The woofer still have to be linear and it would probably better to distribute the load to multible woofers instead of just having the main woofer/speaker do the work alone.

In something like a DBA configuration ART should be able to make use of all the woofers instead of having the back array just doing the absorption of the front woofers? Somebody tried that or has a more educated opinion about that?

 

[Gadgety]

In the research done by Dirac they reached their best results when using a 14.2 set up, the maximum number of speakers tested, and the only test set up used with dual subs, one mid front and the other mid rear wall, with an additional speaker towards the ceiling at the rear. Obviously Dirac ART is far more flexible than a DBA-set up can ever be both in terms of structure and also applicability precisely because ART can supplant with the other woofers, and doesn't require a rectangular room, nor full sub arrays at the front and at the rear. There can be many ways to accomplish results and it depends on whether the goal is to support stereo presentation or multi-channel, for example. One finding was the results scaled with the number of speakers used. That said I'm sure a full DBA will be a nice addition and not detrimental to results, certainly when listening to stereo recordings.

 

[IamJF]

Good point - what happens during stereo listeing with Dirac ART? Are the other speakers still active for compensation?

 

[TimoJ]

Are the other speakers still active for compensation?

Yes, that's the main point of ART.

 

[Gadgety]

Good point - what happens during stereo listeing with Dirac ART? Are the other speakers still active for compensation?

Dirac's measurements and evaluation in their research was done on stereo sound. In the ART set up you can choose how much or little the speakers will support, and consequently both how much your room will influence, but also how much of the main stereo pair of speakers will impact the sound. The measurements and priorities one sets, as in sweet spot focus vs multi seat, will also have an impact. I believe you can have different set ups for different objectives, and that would influence how you measure. I believe this will have a larger impact if and when ART goes beyond 150 Hz.

 

[IamJF]

Yes, that's the main point of ART.

Of course - but doesn't mean it really works flawlessly ;-)

 

[quattro98]

I'm curious about speaker options that work well with ART. We have dual subwoofers and LR are full range, but they're all at the front of the room. Our surrounds will be relatively small (KEF R3 Meta). I'll be using in-ceiling speakers for overheads x4 and also for the rears. I will likely go with the KEF Ci250RRM-THX. Although in-ceiling, these should have good bass response. I am hoping that they will be a useful option with ART as they will be placed in the middle and rear of the room, so far from the LR and subs. Any thoughts from people with experience with ART (will likely get either Denon A1H or Marantz AV10 when the software is confirmed and available).

 

[TimoJ]

Of course - but doesn't mean it really works flawlessly ;-)

It works great with stereo sources (using 7.1.6 speakers).

 

[ban25]

I'm curious about speaker options that work well with ART. We have dual subwoofers and LR are full range, but they're all at the front of the room. Our surrounds will be relatively small (KEF R3 Meta). I'll be using in-ceiling speakers for overheads x4 and also for the rears. I will likely go with the KEF Ci250RRM-THX. Although in-ceiling, these should have good bass response. I am hoping that they will be a useful option with ART as they will be placed in the middle and rear of the room, so far from the LR and subs. Any thoughts from people with experience with ART (will likely get either Denon A1H or Marantz AV10 when the software is confirmed and available).

No experience with ART yet, but I have the model down from those in-ceilings, the Ci200RR-THX, and I can confirm they have excellent bass response. With Dirac/DLBC, I have them crossed over at 60 Hz. My R3 surrounds are crossed over at 70 Hz and 90 Hz for my mains (R11).

 

[Gadgety]

It works great with stereo sources (using 7.1.6 speakers).

How did you set up your ART groupings in terms of main ART group(s) and the support groups?

 

[TimoJ]

How did you set up your ART groupings in terms of main ART group(s) and the support groups?

So far I have done just a quick setup with 7.1.6. All speakers support each other (using default group settings) and I just changed L/R and surround backs to support lower than the default minimum 50Hz. I'll soon change to 7.2.6 and do better setup and tweaking after that. I have used 7.0.6 setup for a longer time and with that I only changed lower limits and main L/R support level (and of course correction curves).

 

[IamJF]

I have used 7.0.6 setup for a longer time and with that I only changed lower limits and main L/R support level (and of course correction curves).

Please can you give a description of your system? Or is there a thread already?

As I'm also thinking about a 7.0.4 or 7.0.6 system - why did you extend with subwoofers now, how is the difference?
Did you make measurements of ART configuration with and without subs?

 

[patoulol]

When is ART coming to the Denon x800? Will it be usable like on the Stromaudio?

 

[Gadgety]

So far I have done just a quick setup with 7.1.6. All speakers support each other (using default group settings) and I just changed L/R and surround backs to support lower than the default minimum 50Hz. I'll soon change to 7.2.6 and do better setup and tweaking after that. I have used 7.0.6 setup for a longer time and with that I only changed lower limits and main L/R support level (and of course correction curves).

Thank you for the reply. It would be really interesting if you could measure and post a spectrogram comparison of the results between 7.1.6 and 7.2.6 once you have that up and running.

 

[TimoJ]

Please can you give a description of your system? Or is there a thread already?

As I'm also thinking about a 7.0.4 or 7.0.6 system - why did you extend with subwoofers now, how is the difference?
Did you make measurements of ART configuration with and without subs?

System listed below. Room is 6.5x4.5 meters with opening on one side. Subwoofers are mostly for movies/lfe.
Subs are currently powered with two Hypex D-class amps and those are not enough and reach clipping just when the subs start come alive... Need to get new ampliers for the subs. And also try few different subwoofer locations. Subs are now located on L/R sidewalls.
In ART there are so many possible settings and grouping options that it's difficult to say about the real difference until I have done more testing. So far, for most music there is very little difference since my main speakers already go pretty low with EQ (and don't overload when EQd) . ART decay times and room response are almost identical with or without subs.

Preamp: Monoprice Monolith HTP-1
Power amp: 3x Purifi 1ET400A
Power amp: 5x ICEpower 50ASX2SE

Left & Right: Cerwin-Vega XLS-215
Center: Klipsch RP-440C
Surround: 2 pairs (parallel) Polk Audio Signature S50e
Surround back: Klipsch RP-280F
Height front, rear & top-middle: JBL Control 1 Pro

Subwoofers: 2x Dayton Audio Ultimax 18" in 113 litre closed enclosures.
2 x Hyper NC500MP

 

[tjcinnamon]

System listed below. Room is 6.5x4.5 meters with opening on one side. Subwoofers are mostly for movies/lfe.
Subs are currently powered with two Hypex D-class amps and those are not enough and reach clipping just when the subs start come alive... Need to get new ampliers for the subs. And also try few different subwoofer locations. Subs are now located on L/R sidewalls.
In ART there are so many possible settings and grouping options that it's difficult to say about the real difference until I have done more testing. So far, for most music there is very little difference since my main speakers already go pretty low with EQ (and don't overload when EQd) . ART decay times and room response are almost identical with or without subs.

Preamp: Monoprice Monolith HTP-1
Power amp: 3x Purifi 1ET400A
Power amp: 5x ICEpower 50ASX2SE

Left & Right: Cerwin-Vega XLS-215
Center: Klipsch RP-440C
Surround: 2 pairs (parallel) Polk Audio Signature S50e
Surround back: Klipsch RP-280F
Height front, rear & top-middle: JBL Control 1 Pro

Subwoofers: 2x Dayton Audio Ultimax 18" in 113 litre closed enclosures.
2 x Hyper NC500MP

If you’re looking for nice value for powering those Ultimax’s. I’ve had incredible luck with Crown XLS1002’s bridged. 1100W at 4ohm bridged. You can find them for $300 used. I actually found a refurb direct from Harmon for around that price.