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A RedZone DAC that's much better subjectively sounding than a BlueZone DAC?!

Koeitje

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Please stay on subject of the thread, if you wish to debate hearing ability, you can start your own :) But to answer your question, an absolute yes.
You might be the next step in evolution. Would you be willing to undergo a hearing test done by scientist so we can confirm your super human hearing capabilities.

Who really cares what this guy believes he can hear , it's not like he's going to say" oh yea , your right it's all I'm my head after all" .

Some random guy reckons he has hearing abilities beyond the realm of scientific enquiry.

Wonderful, let's let him get on with it.
If he has such incredible hearing abilities, I am sure the scientific community would be very interested to see what is causing that. I bet plenty of scientists would care if he actually has those abilities.
 
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confucius_zero

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maverickronin

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so redzones fall below human hearing abilities and therefore can beat bluezones?

Most of the red zones do fall below thresholds of hearing in most real world situations but your conclusion doesn't follow.

It would seem more reasonable to conclude that they all sound the same under most conditions.
 
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confucius_zero

confucius_zero

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If you're trying to find the cheapest thing you can get away with, there's nothing wrong with looking in the red zone.

If you want peace of mind that the DAC will never be the weak link in your chain, or think that DAC performance is a good indicator of quality engineering in other areas of the device then choosing something higher up make sense.

wise words to live by
 

Jimbob54

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I'm sorry the subject has turned over to debunking my hearing or testing methods claims over that of redzone dacs beating bluezone dacs on sound quality. Can we please stay on subject?

Those with superior testing ability / method like @Blumlein 88 to discern red from blue should explain the impossibility of a red beating a blue on sound quality or simply help us understand that red or blue difference should be inaudible regardless.

Stay on subject @Thomas savage ! Some of us are trying to arrange a DAC Deathmatch! I personally have visions of a feeble Apple Dongle ripping an Ygdrassil's head off and Schitting down its throat.

Lets get it owwwwwwwwwwn!
 
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Blumlein 88

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I've become confused. We want a lower measuring Dac that beats a better measuring one for subjective sound quality. We aren't accepting subjective evaluation. There's an unwillingness to do controlled level matched listening. So I think the question is in context unanswerable.
 

Frank Dernie

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The key here, I think, is that some, maybe many from the audiphile press following community have been used to reviews which explicitly say more expensive is better and say something is amazing value, even if expensive by reasonable standards, by saying it is almost as good as something costing much more.
It is possible that about the lowest half of the red zone DACs may sound different to all the other DaCs so far tested on some types of music or recordings.
For those programmed to conflate price and quality it is hardly surprising if on hearing and expensive DAC sounds different to a cheaper one it is assumed the different one is better, particularly if it is a cult product like that Schiit model I can't spell.
It goes with the audiophile press following territory.
Not onIy that, I have DACs which have filter settings which sound different, some may prefer the non-accurate ones if it ameliorates a fault elsewhere in the system. Dacs wihich come as standard with unusual reconstruction filters may well sound different to normal ones too and the same price related temptation would apply.
Having written all that these DACs have to be listened to via headphones or speakers and whilst there are headphone amps which could perhaps pass these super accurate signals unsullied I am not sure about power amplifiers for speakers (in terms of real world SNR probably most are plenty good enough for music but nowhere near the DACs).
I don't know about headphone resolution but speakers in room certainly can not.
 

solderdude

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That got me curious.

Since some here can't differentiate the sound quality between DAC SINAD numbers or claim these are irrelevant and inaudible, I'd like to be openminded to the idea that a RedZone DAC could beat a BlueZone DAC as a proof that bad implementation could be intentional in the pursuit of sound quality.

Has any of you heard a RedZone DAC with green and blue zone killing potential?

Update: So far there were claims of Schiit Modi Multibit and Schitt Yggdrasil sounding better than blue zone DACs.

I'll just link to this post, saves me the trouble of copy/paste.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...measurements-really-matter.13631/#post-412512

I will just add: subjective, sighted non level matched evaluations (sound quality) have no relation to any measurements below certain audibility thresholds.
 

Wombat

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Well I am an engineer and music lover not an Audiophile.

Me too. Very wary of overthinking and uninformed conjecture.

I am glad I am not afflicted with the 'mind over what matters' syndrome.
 
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solderdude

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Note - Off topic, but I wrote a longish post because I read some nasty comments about ASR and Mr. Amir on Drop website (comments' section somewhere). Some of us might be dumb audio-science wise, but not common sense wise.

It is easy to trash someone online when you know they aren't going to respond.
Happens everywhere concerning every topic.
 

Alexanderc

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The more I read of this, the more it seems like the OP is asking for someone to provide “proof” that a relatively poorly performing DAC cannot beat an excellently performing one in some sort of competition. If people here are saying “they sound the same in real-world situations” then a red-zone DAC is just as good as a blue-zone DAC if you’re listening to them side by side. I think this demonstrates a misunderstanding about what we’re doing here.

First, the rankings here, unlike in the magazines we’re used to reading, are not intended to show some sort of sound quality hierarchy, but instead show differences in quality of engineering. I don’t wish to speak on behalf of this forum, but it seems clear that the DACs that are recommended in the reviews are recommended because they demonstrate a well-made product, not a superior sounding one. Although it’s likely that the worst-engineered DACs on the list will alter the sound of whatever is played through them, that doesn’t seem to be the point.

Therefore, the people who buy a magazine’s recommended product because it supposedly sounds better are going to be led astray trying to follow the same logic on this site. People who subscribe to the sort of thinking common on this forum are not claiming the blue zone DACs *sound* the best, but instead that they demonstrate the best technical skill in their execution. When people on other forums say, “how can those ASR people claim that DAC A beats DAC B when they also say they don’t hear a difference?” they are making an apples-to-oranges comparison. What they’re doing is not what is being done on this forum.

Back to the original question, can we prove that a blue-zone DAC can’t ever be be beaten by a lower-zone DAC in a listening test (even a well-executed test)? No. Most will sound the same. But we’re not making that claim—that is a different way of thinking.

Edit: comments above refer to DACs only. Amplifiers are probably a different story and speakers certainly are.
 

Jimbob54

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The more I read of this, the more it seems like the OP is asking for someone to provide “proof” that a relatively poorly performing DAC cannot beat an excellently performing one in some sort of competition. If people here are saying “they sound the same in real-world situations” then a red-zone DAC is just as good as a blue-zone DAC if you’re listening to them side by side. I think this demonstrates a misunderstanding about what we’re doing here.

First, the rankings here, unlike in the magazines we’re used to reading, are not intended to show some sort of sound quality hierarchy, but instead show differences in quality of engineering. I don’t wish to speak on behalf of this forum, but it seems clear that the DACs that are recommended in the reviews are recommended because they demonstrate a well-made product, not a superior sounding one. Although it’s likely that the worst-engineered DACs on the list will alter the sound of whatever is played through them, that doesn’t seem to be the point.

Therefore, the people who buy a magazine’s recommended product because it supposedly sounds better are going to be led astray trying to follow the same logic on this site. People who subscribe to the sort of thinking common on this forum are not claiming the blue zone DACs *sound* the best, but instead that they demonstrate the best technical skill in their execution. When people on other forums say, “how can those ASR people claim that DAC A beats DAC B when they also say they don’t hear a difference?” they are making an apples-to-oranges comparison. What they’re doing is not what is being done on this forum.

Back to the original question, can we prove that a blue-zone DAC can’t ever be be beaten by a lower-zone DAC in a listening test (even a well-executed test)? No. Most will sound the same. But we’re not making that claim—that is a different way of thinking.

Edit: comments above refer to DACs only. Amplifiers are probably a different story and speakers certainly are.

I think I agree as to the meaning of the post. I am also completely unsure as the purpose of posting it.

In previous posts he has said that (Im paraphrasing) 105 db SINAD amps aren't deserving of a recommendation, that he can clearly hear the difference between 10db SINAD performing items even if both are high order items.

I wonder if the purpose was to , in effect, say "You all say all DACS sound the same, therefore the charts and colours are meaningless. BUT, I can tell!"

A statement that will never ever land well here. Unless backed by properly obtained evidence.
 

Alexanderc

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I think I agree as to the meaning of the post. I am also completely unsure as the purpose of posting it.

In previous posts he has said that (Im paraphrasing) 105 db SINAD amps aren't deserving of a recommendation, that he can clearly hear the difference between 10db SINAD performing items even if both are high order items.

I wonder if the purpose was to , in effect, say "You all say all DACS sound the same, therefore the charts and colours are meaningless. BUT, I can tell!"

A statement that will never ever land well here. Unless backed by properly obtained evidence.
Is the OP making claims about himself, or just playing devil’s advocate? His series of responses reminds me of the “change my mind” meme.

I could be wrong, wouldn’t be the first time. ;)
 

Wombat

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Is the OP making claims about himself, or just playing devil’s advocate? His series of responses reminds me of the “change my mind” meme.

I could be wrong, wouldn’t be the first time. ;)

It is up to the poster to be clear. Many of the thread problems are due to lack of such clarity,
 

Jimbob54

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Is the OP making claims about himself, or just playing devil’s advocate? His series of responses reminds me of the “change my mind” meme.

I could be wrong, wouldn’t be the first time. ;)

He has , in responses on this thread and elsewhere (Posts #50 onwards here for eg) . Taking in summation, I speculate that's the intention.

That said, he has also said he has no examples to offer of "red" dacs that can "kill" any blue on "Sound Quality". No one else has offered any either- so:

Thread closed?

EDIT- I take that back, some here have added that ( I dont take this as their personal view) they recall posts on ASR and elsewhere that some Schiit Multibits and the Yggthingy were preferred to higher scoring DACs. In which case , we still have nothing new added.

OP has incorrectly stated that red zone is what ASR considers "bad". Simply bottom 25% of all tested on ONE of many measurements. Amir's recommendation or not of a product and the panther is the only remotely subjective bit. This whole thing sounds like a game my 5yo would play with his friends, with "goodies" , "baddies" and different teams, zones and more shite. I think @mansr is right
 
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FrantzM

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Hi

Someone posted in another thread, that in some ways ASR removed the fun from High End Audio... I can't recall where but to me that was telling: ASR mission is moving and well, removing the BS from Home Audio Reproduction brought in , perpetrated, maintained by the High End Audio Industry. The OP will throw us in many directions trying to be intellectually honest and fishing for reasons why , perhaps, a person would prefer a device with perceivable distortions to one that is transparent?
Reality is that distortions from even the worst DACs are pretty difficult to perceive by the vast majority of audiophiles. It requires training to. People are listening to Vinyl ! which reproduction chain (TT/Phono stage, etc) likely has a SINAD inferior to the worst of the tested DACs and they find Vinyl great sounding... Presented with most any of the tested DACs, with level matched and knowledge removed the OP and his hypothetical audiophiles will fail to distinguish between the Blue and the Red ... consistently.
Better reproduction lays in the transducers and the better ways to integrate these within our listening environments. Not much else to add to this discussion.
 

Asylum Seeker

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Thx for staying on subject :) and for promoting a small facebook group that loves ASR.

I can't see why I'm disparaging of objectivism as I also work at an objectivist company and have purchased more than thousands of dollars worth of audiogear which have yielded great performance thanks to knowledge from ASR.

I ask this question to demystify the claims found in ASR, most of them trying to disregard the measurement data as inaudible and negligible after a certain "subjective" threshold (which they aren't).
Look, pal. You can't tell me with an objectivist straight face that there's not a lot of, that you don't turn a blind eye to, perhaps even that you encourage some rather delusional flights of fancy on the FB group that you moderate. Most group members over there have as much interest in keeping themselves honest as I do about becoming a priest. No BS? In the words of John McEnroe, 'you cannot be serious'.

But hey, don't take it from me folks, look for yourselves in the FB NoBSBudetAudio group.
 
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