Is there a $100 USB DAC+amp that sounds better than a $10 Apple DAC + $90 amp?

[Luminair]

Subject is a thought exercise. I was reading about how performant the Apple DAC is, and how many hifi people have started using it for its perfect/transparent sound quality. Surely Apple isn't making money on that thing, so by using it as a component in your system, you're extracting some free value. Is there any place for cheap DAC+amps anymore?

Surely you should just get the best plain analog amp you can afford, and then throw in the Apple DAC on top. Barring a need for optical/coax SPDIF DAC support (is there a $10 way to get that?), it seems like the DAC world is a lot simpler than at first glance. Just get a Sabaj A10h (or the Topping L30 II if you need more power) plus the Apple DAC and call it a day. A10h has a sick digital volume knob with perfectly-balanced channels, something you cannot get in ANY DAC for the price of the A10h + $10 for the Apple DAC. If someone can afford the A10h+$10, I would be nuts to recommend any other computer sound device.

So, the thought exercise: is there any $X-dollar DAC+amp combo that matches or surpasses a combination of a $X-$10 headphone amp plus the Apple DAC?

I think the Topping DX1 is the toughest contender for breaking my comparison right now. I personally don't know of a better headphone amp than the DX1 for $DX1-$10, but I bet there's a manufacturer who thinks they have one.

 

[Rednaxela]

Cool thread!

 

[cmabooty]

which apple DAC? The phone one or the one in a Mac or?

 

[Barrelhouse Solly]

I have an Apple dongle. The audio quality is great but the output isn't strong enough without amplification. With my Lenovo tablet and relatively efficient headphones I can max out the volume and not come close to too loud. I'm not fond of loud music but I prefer an audio device that is capable of being too loud for me.

 

[Jasperous]

DDHifi TC44C puts out 120mW, with both SE and Balanced outputs. It's my daily driver for most things.

 

[Roen]

Subject is a thought exercise. I was reading about how performant the Apple DAC is, and how many hifi people have started using it for its perfect/transparent sound quality. Surely Apple isn't making money on that thing, so by using it as a component in your system, you're extracting some free value. Is there any place for cheap DAC+amps anymore?

Surely you should just get the best plain analog amp you can afford, and then throw in the Apple DAC on top. Barring a need for optical/coax SPDIF DAC support (is there a $10 way to get that?), it seems like the DAC world is a lot simpler than at first glance. Just get a Sabaj A10h (or the Topping L30 II if you need more power) plus the Apple DAC and call it a day. A10h has a sick digital volume knob with perfectly-balanced channels, something you cannot get in ANY DAC for the price of the A10h + $10 for the Apple DAC. If someone can afford the A10h+$10, I would be nuts to recommend any other computer sound device.

So, the thought exercise: is there any $X-dollar DAC+amp combo that matches or surpasses a combination of a $X-$10 headphone amp plus the Apple DAC?

I think the Topping DX1 is the toughest contender for breaking my comparison right now. I personally don't know of a better headphone amp than the DX1 for $DX1-$10, but I bet there's a manufacturer who thinks they have one.

I basically use your case, Apple USB-C dongle + JDS O2 amp.

My 1x gain, 3.5x setup is actually underpowered compared to the stock 2.5x, 6.5x setup.

 

[Roen]

DDHifi TC44C puts out 120mW, with both SE and Balanced outputs. It's my daily driver for most things.

120 mW in a 32 ohm load, on the 300 ohm headphones that I use with the O2, that would be 13 mW theoretical. For reference, the O2 puts out about 110 mW real world into a 300 ohm load, and my custom O2 puts out 40 mW theoretical into a 300W.

Ostensibly there are some dongles that will put out more than my O2.

 

[Luminair]

which apple DAC? The phone one or the one in a Mac or?

The popular one is USA model A2049 (USB C to 3.5mm TRRS). I don't know what devices Apple intended to use it with, but it's just a normal USB device that works with any computer.

 

[Jasperous]

120 mW in a 32 ohm load, on the 300 ohm headphones that I use with the O2, that would be 13 mW theoretical. For reference, the O2 puts out about 110 mW real world into a 300 ohm load, and my custom O2 puts out 40 mW theoretical into a 300W.

Ostensibly there are some dongles that will put out more than my O2.

That’s not a fair comparison at all! There are more powerful dongles but with current tech they will much bigger. Instead of a dongle how about the Topping G5 or NX4, more expensive but also more portable.

 

[Chrispy]

We talking more than just a headphone amp?

 

[Roen]

That’s not a fair comparison at all! There are more powerful dongles but with current tech they will much bigger. Instead of a dongle how about the Topping G5 or NX4, more expensive but also more portable.

It’s not meant to be fair or unfair, it just is, based on the voltage each dongle / amp can provide.

It was meant to clarify 120 mW into a low impedance load but much less into a higher impedance one.

 

[solderdude]

Subject is a thought exercise. I was reading about how performant the Apple DAC is, and how many hifi people have started using it for its perfect/transparent sound quality. Surely Apple isn't making money on that thing, so by using it as a component in your system, you're extracting some free value. Is there any place for cheap DAC+amps anymore?

Surely you should just get the best plain analog amp you can afford, and then throw in the Apple DAC on top. Barring a need for optical/coax SPDIF DAC support (is there a $10 way to get that?), it seems like the DAC world is a lot simpler than at first glance. Just get a Sabaj A10h (or the Topping L30 II if you need more power) plus the Apple DAC and call it a day. A10h has a sick digital volume knob with perfectly-balanced channels, something you cannot get in ANY DAC for the price of the A10h + $10 for the Apple DAC. If someone can afford the A10h+$10, I would be nuts to recommend any other computer sound device.

So, the thought exercise: is there any $X-dollar DAC+amp combo that matches or surpasses a combination of a $X-$10 headphone amp plus the Apple DAC?

I think the Topping DX1 is the toughest contender for breaking my comparison right now. I personally don't know of a better headphone amp than the DX1 for $DX1-$10, but I bet there's a manufacturer who thinks they have one.

When you don't need more than 44.1 and 48kHz the Apple dongle is an option, providing the connected amp has sufficient gain as the output voltage is kind of low.
When you want to play higher res formats, DSD, or use SPDIF, optical in or USB you may want another device.
Or if you want a display, different filter settings, balanced out also.

 

[Jasperous]

It’s not meant to be fair or unfair, it just is, based on the voltage each dongle / amp can provide.

It was meant to clarify 120 mW into a low impedance load but much less into a higher impedance one.

Comparing a desktop amp with a dongle is quite the difference, which is why it is an unfair comparison. You wouldn’t compare headphones to a set of desktop speakers. Different form and function

 

[Roen]

Comparing a desktop amp with a dongle is quite the difference, which is why it is an unfair comparison. You wouldn’t compare headphones to a set of desktop speakers. Different form and function

Once again, it wasn’t a comparison.

It was clarifying your 120 mW without an impedance level so that people understand the context of that number by including the appropriate impedance level, as well as what the power level would be given other impedance levels.

For reference, your dongle puts out 120 mW at 32 ohms, which means it’s capable of putting out 13 mW at 300 ohms.

I don’t need to include a desktop amp to clarify that power figure. I included it as an example of scale but it’s not meant to be “hey, you should get a desktop amp because it provides more power”. It’s meant to be “This is what device A can do. For reference, this is what device B can do.”

 

[Surreal]

I can max out the volume and not come close to too loud

You're probably running into the Android """bug""" where the volume is artificially capped to the default volume of the device. I guarantee if you used it on your PC, the volume would get uncomfortable.

Google Issue Tracker

issuetracker.google.com

 

[DSJR]

The EU Apple dongle really does have a low output but sensitive headphones are ok with it. As a line driver though, it's pitiful sadly...

The US Apple dongle which a very kind soul here obtained for me (it's used on an elderly Dell laptop via a USBA male - USBC female adaptor, has a much stronger headphone output and it's almost usable as a line level device too, as long as the amp it's connected to has older-fashioned input sensitivities of a few hundred millivolts.

Not sure the performance is much worse at all than the Apple, but I have a Fiio Taishan dac (£23 from Amazon but cheaper now elsewhere as I suspect it's discontinued) which offers proper output from its RCA sockets and it 'sounds' clean enough into a smaller system.

The thing is though, getting the budget to £/$200 or so, opens up the choices to almost sota dacs (in simple plain boxes admittedly) or dongles and a few good baby amp choices...

 

[Barrelhouse Solly]

I have an Apple dongle. The audio quality is great but the output isn't strong enough without amplification. With my Lenovo tablet and relatively efficient headphones I can max out the volume and not come close to too loud. I'm not fond of loud music but I prefer an audio device that is capable of being too loud fo

You're probably running into the Android """bug""" where the volume is artificially capped to the default volume of the device. I guarantee if you used it on your PC, the volume would get uncomfortable.

Google Issue Tracker

issuetracker.google.com

No. The Apple dongle is not as loud as the Tempotec dongle that I use regularly or my Schitt desktop DAC. It is loud enough for relatively low impedance headphones. The Android volume limit can be overridden on many devices. I answer yes to the "Do you want to damage your hearing?" warning.

 

[staticV3]

The Android volume limit can be overridden on many devices. I answer yes to the "Do you want to damage your hearing?" warning.

Answering yes to that warning does not override the Apple dongle's UAC2 Hardware Volume limit. It'll still be in place, limiting volume.

To remove that limiter, you need to use something like UAPP, like so.

 

[Niconoclaste]

Moondrop dawn pro. I received it and left a feedback here

MOONDROP DAWN PRO Dual CS43131 Portable USB DAC/AMP

shenzhenaudio.com

More than enough power for my Sundara, even with unbalanced cable. Nice hardware volume control to set it accurately for sensitives IEMs like my Blessing 3.
No noise, heat nicely controlled.
Can't wait for measurement though

 

[Minna]

When you don't need more than 44.1 and 48kHz the Apple dongle is an option, providing the connected amp has sufficient gain as the output voltage is kind of low.
When you want to play higher res formats, DSD, or use SPDIF, optical in or USB you may want another device.
Or if you want a display, different filter settings, balanced out also.

Very clear and informative on Apple dongle.
I would like to ask (as I don't have an external dac or amp yet).
How about the 3.5 mm headphone jack on MacBook Air, If I use 3.5 to aux in or 3.5 to RCA Line in to an amp.
Will this 3.5mm provide any output voltage ? and also
Will provide all the available HZ like when I connect with headphone?
Thank you very much.