5.1.4 In-Wall or Bookshelves? Design feedback request

[mangothehuman]

My house is currently being remodeled and I managed to broker a deal with my wife to update my home theater. I won't have a dedicated theater room, but it will be primarily be used to house my AV gear. I've received so many differing opinions from sales guys--it's driving me nuts, haha. I’m looking for feedback on speakers and design.

A bit about the room:

• It's on the second floor and has wood floors. We'll put down some heavy wool rugs and curtains to minimize sound reflection.
• The room is ~270 square feet. 17'4” wide, 16' long if you don’t count the stairwell. If you count that area, we’re looking at 19’4”.
• I own the couch, media console, and desk already, but all of the A/V equipment will be new (to me, I’ll may buy some stuff used).

Equipment ideas:

• Receiver: Denon AVR-X4800H or Marantz Cinema 40 - I want Atmos and Dirac
• TV: 77” LG G3 - couch seating is ~8'9" from the TV
• Towers: GoldenEar Triton One R
• Surrounds: GoldenEar BRX or MPX (Just read the BRX review and it wasn't very impressive, but it seems heavily recommended outside of this forum?)
• Center: GoldenEar SuperCenter Reference
• Sub: SVS SB-2000 (TBD, will likely add later)
• In-Ceiling: Goldenear Invisa HTR 7000

Primarily used for watching TV and movies, but I'll also listen to music on it regularly (mostly rock & blues).

Budget: ~$15k all-in, which should give me up to $10k to buy the speakers.

Rough mockups attached. Blue dots are in-ceiling, green are bookshelf, sub, center, and towers.

Would in-wall work with this setup? It seems like bookshelves would be better?


Bookshelves

In-wall

 

[BJL]

I don't think that your in wall design for the surrounds is a good idea, actually, kind of bad, but I also think that your surrounds (in the bookshelf version) should be moved a bit out to the side from the rear top speakers. Is there some reason why you are not including surround back? You have enough room.

 

[mangothehuman]

I don't think that your in wall design for the surrounds is a good idea, actually, kind of bad, but I also think that your surrounds (in the bookshelf version) should be moved a bit out to the side from the rear top speakers. Is there some reason why you are not including surround back? You have enough room.

Yes, I was thinking the same regarding the in-walls. There are a couple of sales guys who have insisted that it will be better, and I just don't buy that I have the ability to use in-walls if I'm trying to do a 5.1.4 setup.

Are you suggesting I go for a 7.1.4 design? It's not that I'm opposed to it, but I'm pretty sure my wife would not be happy about adding two more bookshelves. The side surround on the south side would kinda be in the middle of the room, which I was hoping to avoid.

In the 5.1.4 layout, are you suggesting I move the two bookshelves out further like the arrows I've drawn?

 

[BJL]

I've most recently had my set up in a smaller listening room, and I've had it both 5.1.4 and 7.1.4, both worked, but 7.1.4 was superior. If you are staying with 5.1.4 using bookshelves, you can always move them around a little and then run Dirac again once you have settled on the location. Personally, I would move the surrounds out a bit, and if possible, a foot or two further back from the listening position, so that that are outside (to the right and to the left) of the rear height speakers and not too far forward of the rear height. From my listening (which by the way is mostly music, not movies), surround back "bed" channels are diverted to the surrounds, and I presume the objects as well (it is difficult, maybe impossible to distinguish between the channel based material and objects in the ear level speakers by listening unless wholly obvious, such as vocals in the center channel).

5.1.4 sounded great, maybe you can add the surround back later after your wife has had a chance to appreciate the wonderful listening experience of Atmos and dts:X.

 

[mangothehuman]

I've most recently had my set up in a smaller listening room, and I've had it both 5.1.4 and 7.1.4, both worked, but 7.1.4 was superior. If you are staying with 5.1.4 using bookshelves, you can always move them around a little and then run Dirac again once you have settled on the location. Personally, I would move the surrounds out a bit, and if possible, a foot or two further back from the listening position, so that that are outside (to the right and to the left) of the rear height speakers and not too far forward of the rear height. From my listening (which by the way is mostly music, not movies), surround back "bed" channels are diverted to the surrounds, and I presume the objects as well (it is difficult, maybe impossible to distinguish between the channel based material and objects in the ear level speakers by listening unless wholly obvious, such as vocals in the center channel).

5.1.4 sounded great, maybe you can add the surround back later after your wife has had a chance to appreciate the wonderful listening experience of Atmos and dts:X.

I think that's probably the safest bet with the 7.1.4...hopefully she'll get into it and be okay with the speaker stands and then I'll add two more channels.

That makes sense with the surround placement. I'll have to play around with it, but good to hear I'm in generally the right location.

Do you have any feedback on the GoldenEar selection?

Thanks again!

 

[abdo123]

in-wall are always better than bookshelves, unless the bookshelves are literally free-standing (on a stand significantly away from the walls and floors)

 

[BJL]

in-wall are always better than bookshelves, unless the bookshelves are literally free-standing (on a stand significantly away from the walls and floors)

Even if that is so, there are practical considerations which may militate against in-wall speakers, such as (1) the expense involved (2) architectural and structural considerations that may prevent such an installation (3) the inflexibility of in-wall speakers, difficult to change. The use of Dirac Live may also minimize any theoretical advantages of in-wall speakers. I think it a bit extreme to say that in-wall are "always" better.

I think that's probably the safest bet with the 7.1.4...hopefully she'll get into it and be okay with the speaker stands and then I'll add two more channels.

That makes sense with the surround placement. I'll have to play around with it, but good to hear I'm in generally the right location.

Do you have any feedback on the GoldenEar selection?

Thanks again!

I do not personally know anything about GoldenEar Speakers, though I looked at the website and they seem interesting. Perhaps you might start a new thread on those speakers to find out more information from others' experiences.

 

[alex-z]

The use of Dirac Live may also minimize any theoretical advantages of in-wall speakers.

Dirac Live can correct the frequency and phase response. But that doesn't change the efficiency and time domain advantage that in-wall speakers have, due to their lack of baffle step loss or diffraction.

Your point about in-wall speakers having a structural compromise is absolutely true though, many people compromise the noise floor of their room by cutting holes in drywall. In-wall speakers are best for those with a double wall room.

 

[alex-z]

You have a big budget, I wouldn't even be considering Goldenear, they don't have a single non-MTM centre channel. My default recommendation is KEF R3 + R2 Meta, a bit expensive but the performance justifies it. Neutral on-axis, smooth off-axis response, super low distortion, etc.

Also add a second sub. Makes a big difference for bass quality. Your room is relatively large, so I would also consider switching to ported subs, the PB-2000 has a lot more output capability below 30Hz than the SB-2000.

https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

 

[mangothehuman]

Thanks for your input @alex-z and @BJL

 

[mangothehuman]

You have a big budget, I wouldn't even be considering Goldenear, they don't have a single non-MTM centre channel. My default recommendation is KEF R3 + R2 Meta, a bit expensive but the performance justifies it. Neutral on-axis, smooth off-axis response, super low distortion, etc.

Also add a second sub. Makes a big difference for bass quality. Your room is relatively large, so I would also consider switching to ported subs, the PB-2000 has a lot more output capability below 30Hz than the SB-2000.

https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

Probably a dumb question, but would a bookstand speaker work better if a MTM center is not acceptable? The BRX shares the same tweeter as the GoldenEar One.R, so perhaps that would be a better fit?

 

[funnychap]

My house is currently being remodeled and I managed to broker a deal with my wife to update my home theater. I won't have a dedicated theater room, but it will be primarily be used to house my AV gear. I've received so many differing opinions from sales guys--it's driving me nuts, haha. I’m looking for feedback on speakers and design.

A bit about the room:

• It's on the second floor and has wood floors. We'll put down some heavy wool rugs and curtains to minimize sound reflection.
• The room is ~270 square feet. 17'4” wide, 16' long if you don’t count the stairwell. If you count that area, we’re looking at 19’4”.
• I own the couch, media console, and desk already, but all of the A/V equipment will be new (to me, I’ll may buy some stuff used).

Equipment ideas:

• Receiver: Denon AVR-X4800H or Marantz Cinema 40 - I want Atmos and Dirac
• TV: 77” LG G3 - couch seating is ~8'9" from the TV
• Towers: GoldenEar Triton One R
• Surrounds: GoldenEar BRX or MPX (Just read the BRX review and it wasn't very impressive, but it seems heavily recommended outside of this forum?)
• Center: GoldenEar SuperCenter Reference
• Sub: SVS SB-2000 (TBD, will likely add later)
• In-Ceiling: Goldenear Invisa HTR 7000

Primarily used for watching TV and movies, but I'll also listen to music on it regularly (mostly rock & blues).

Budget: ~$15k all-in, which should give me up to $10k to buy the speakers.

Rough mockups attached. Blue dots are in-ceiling, green are bookshelf, sub, center, and towers.

Would in-wall work with this setup? It seems like bookshelves would be better?


Bookshelves
View attachment 299577

In-wall
View attachment 299578

I have a mixed setup (home theater 7.2.4) with an Arcam AVR5 receiver and a 150in 6x9 projector pulldown screen that's 11' wide x 6' high. Even movies sound better with the GoldenEar BRX speakers with their AMT ribbon tweeter.

I upgraded my front L and R speakers to the GoldenEar BRX (with ribbon tweeter) (I was searching for short 12in tall bookspeakers). Wow, clear, live, airy, gives me goosebumps and adding the subwoofers did not cover up the treble/vocalists, the biggest soundstage.
I now hear so many vocalists taking in breaths before they sing (before I could only hear a few), I can hear things that are really low in volume and more instruments (especially cymbals), different performers moving around on the stage when listening to broadway musical soundtracks.
The best bass at 40Hz. The speakers disappeared so I felt the singers in the room.
Elvis Presley's vibrato has never sounded so live until now.

source=Apple Music (hires lossless, and spatial audio surround music) and Denafrips Ares II 12th dac (R2R technology for 3D live/realistic sound).

My video:

------
For you:
Why would you limit to 5 bed layer speakers? Get 7 bed layer speakers.
If you want tower speakers, I would suggest the GoldenEar Triton Reference or T66 (floorstanding), with the awesome AMT ribbon tweeters.
Skip the Denon AVR-X4800H or Marantz Cinema 40 (I've had the Denon X3700H and it was just ok so it's been relegated to the family room, BestBuy integrators said even the base Arcam AVR5 sounds better than the Denon X6700H), and get the Arcam AVR11 or higher because you want Dirac (keep it mind that they all give u a basic Dirac, not multiple subwoofers Dirac for $650). Use the Arcam AVR11 to power the center speaker and surround L and surround R.
Then get a Parasound amplifier to power your front L and R speakers.
You'll want to get at least 2 identical sealed subwoofers or sealed/bass radiators.
To get great 2-channels music, you'll need a lossless source like Apple Music (and get spatial audio for free played via your receiver that processes Dolby atmos), and a 3D live music dac like the Denafrips Ares II 12th or Denafrips Pontus II 12th.

I've also noticed that your subwoofer is to the left of the center channel.
I find that my front subwoofer placed below the center channel makes the best phantom center vocalist (and distribution in front of the room) when I play 2-channels stereo.
In my 23 years in the hobby noone has ever suggested putting the subwoofer placed below the center channel ; instead they've always suggested the corners which i followed but it's not the best location for me.
My 2nd identical sealed subwoofer is to the right of my couch.

I also noticed that your front L and R speakers are too close to the front wall, pull them 2-3 feet away from the front wall and see if they sound better to you, they did for me!

 

[BJL]

I've also noticed that your subwoofer is to the left of the center channel.
I find that my front subwoofer placed below the center channel makes the best phantom center vocalist (and distribution in front of the room) when I play 2-channels stereo.
In my 23 years in the hobby noone has ever suggested putting the subwoofer placed below the center channel ; instead they've always suggested the corners which i followed but it's not the best location for me.

I also have my subwoofer directly under the center channel speaker and find that provides the best result, whether using it as a straight sub for stereo recordings (crossed over at 50 Hz), or as a .1 (LFE) channel in multichannel recordings. I found that shifting the sub right or left biased the low end off axis. I don't know why, scientifically, my speculation is that in multichannel music (I don't use my system for movies etc.) the LFE channel may extend up into the range where bass is directional, and in the case of a stereo (or mono) recording, there is sufficient energy in the harmonics above 50 Hz to give a slight directionality to the sound. Incidentally, I listen to most mono recordings through the center channel only, and having the sub directly below the center channel speaker provides a more coherent listening experience, at least to my ears.

 

[mangothehuman]

I have a mixed setup (home theater 7.2.4) with an Arcam AVR5 receiver and a 150in 6x9 projector pulldown screen that's 11' wide x 6' high. Even movies sound better with the GoldenEar BRX speakers with their AMT ribbon tweeter.

I upgraded my front L and R speakers to the GoldenEar BRX (with ribbon tweeter) (I was searching for short 12in tall bookspeakers). Wow, clear, live, airy, gives me goosebumps and adding the subwoofers did not cover up the treble/vocalists, the biggest soundstage.
I now hear so many vocalists taking in breaths before they sing (before I could only hear a few), I can hear things that are really low in volume and more instruments (especially cymbals), different performers moving around on the stage when listening to broadway musical soundtracks.
The best bass at 40Hz. The speakers disappeared so I felt the singers in the room.
Elvis Presley's vibrato has never sounded so live until now.

source=Apple Music (hires lossless, and spatial audio surround music) and Denafrips Ares II 12th dac (R2R technology for 3D live/realistic sound).

My video:

------
For you:
Why would you limit to 5 bed layer speakers? Get 7 bed layer speakers.
If you want tower speakers, I would suggest the GoldenEar Triton Reference or T66 (floorstanding), with the awesome AMT ribbon tweeters.
Skip the Denon AVR-X4800H or Marantz Cinema 40 (I've had the Denon X3700H and it was just ok so it's been relegated to the family room, BestBuy integrators said even the base Arcam AVR5 sounds better than the Denon X6700H), and get the Arcam AVR11 or higher because you want Dirac (keep it mind that they all give u a basic Dirac, not multiple subwoofers Dirac for $650). Use the Arcam AVR11 to power the center speaker and surround L and surround R.
Then get a Parasound amplifier to power your front L and R speakers.
You'll want to get at least 2 identical sealed subwoofers or sealed/bass radiators.
To get great 2-channels music, you'll need a lossless source like Apple Music (and get spatial audio for free played via your receiver that processes Dolby atmos), and a 3D live music dac like the Denafrips Ares II 12th or Denafrips Pontus II 12th.

I've also noticed that your subwoofer is to the left of the center channel.
I find that my front subwoofer placed below the center channel makes the best phantom center vocalist (and distribution in front of the room) when I play 2-channels stereo.
In my 23 years in the hobby noone has ever suggested putting the subwoofer placed below the center channel ; instead they've always suggested the corners which i followed but it's not the best location for me.
My 2nd identical sealed subwoofer is to the right of my couch.

I also noticed that your front L and R speakers are too close to the front wall, pull them 2-3 feet away from the front wall and see if they sound better to you, they did for me!

Thanks, I ended up buying the GoldenEar One.R. It has the same ribbon tweeter that is in the GE Reference speakers. It's a slightly smaller box and a lot cheaper (they're discontinuing it for the T66).

May end up going to 7 speaker layout, but probably work my way there. It's an expensive hobby and I'll need to convince the wife.

I'll give Arcam and Parasound a closer look.

I'll see on the subs - probably a later add due to budget. The GE One.R has two 1600W subs built in already.

Agreed on the speaker proximity to the wall, but I'm not sure I'll be able to modify that too much given this room is multi-purpose.

I do appreciate all the tips!

 

[funnychap]

Thanks, I ended up buying the GoldenEar One.R. It has the same ribbon tweeter that is in the GE Reference speakers. It's a slightly smaller box and a lot cheaper (they're discontinuing it for the T66).

May end up going to 7 speaker layout, but probably work my way there. It's an expensive hobby and I'll need to convince the wife.

I'll give Arcam and Parasound a closer look.

I'll see on the subs - probably a later add due to budget. The GE One.R has two 1600W subs built in already.

Agreed on the speaker proximity to the wall, but I'm not sure I'll be able to modify that too much given this room is multi-purpose.

I do appreciate all the tips!

Congrats on the GoldenEar One.R.

Big floor standing speakers would never fit in my guest bedroom/theater with my 150in 11' wide screen in a 12' wide room. I chose short bookshelf speakers because I needed them to rise above a desk and bed, yet be short so that the speakers don't block the screen. I also have 2 sealed subwoofers (each with 2 bass radiators) to play below the BRX's 40 Hz.

I love the BRX's High-Gauss HVFR so if I were ever to buy GoldenEar floorstanding speakers, they would have to have the High-Gauss HVFR ATM tweeter, which only comes in these higher models: Reference, one.R, and T66.

 

[funnychap]

Thanks, I ended up buying the GoldenEar One.R. It has the same ribbon tweeter that is in the GE Reference speakers. It's a slightly smaller box and a lot cheaper (they're discontinuing it for the T66).

May end up going to 7 speaker layout, but probably work my way there. It's an expensive hobby and I'll need to convince the wife.

I'll give Arcam and Parasound a closer look.

I'll see on the subs - probably a later add due to budget. The GE One.R has two 1600W subs built in already.

Agreed on the speaker proximity to the wall, but I'm not sure I'll be able to modify that too much given this room is multi-purpose.

I do appreciate all the tips!

I liked my new pair of GoldenEar BRX speakers for music so I was curious if it would improve my old center channel speaker (like how the new BRX improved the L/R speakers for movies).

Today I hooked up the BRX to the center channel...and wow. There were high notes missing with my old speaker (I played a bluray disc of Phantom of the Opera movie version)!
So I bought a 3rd GoldenEar BRX to replace my center channel speaker.

What's amazing is that previously I bought better RCA cables/interconnects named Worlds Best Cables (mogami wire and Neutrik plugs) from Amazon but I did not hear an improvement with my old speakers.

But now I do hear an improvement with the GoldenEars BRX in the high notes, female vocalists, cymbals, bigger soundstage, and more airy.

source=Apple Music (hires lossless, and spatial audio surround music) and Denafrips Ares II 12th dac (R2R technology for 3D live/realistic sound).

 

[Open Mind Audio]

Thanks, I ended up buying the GoldenEar One.R. It has the same ribbon tweeter that is in the GE Reference speakers. It's a slightly smaller box and a lot cheaper (they're discontinuing it for the T66).

May end up going to 7 speaker layout, but probably work my way there. It's an expensive hobby and I'll need to convince the wife.

I'll give Arcam and Parasound a closer look.

I'll see on the subs - probably a later add due to budget. The GE One.R has two 1600W subs built in already.

Agreed on the speaker proximity to the wall, but I'm not sure I'll be able to modify that too much given this room is multi-purpose.

I do appreciate all the tips!

Let us know how this worked out - with pictures please. I've had a 5 speaker set-up with Triton Ones for 6 years and love it for HT and surround music. I think you'll find you do not need a subwoofer. I had a subwoofer with my previous 5.1 setup but have been completely fine without it since adding the Triton Ones. You do, however, have to experiment to get the placement right for the Ones, since you are essentially positioning dual subs. I had a terrible bass null at the main listening position in my initial setup, but once I worked that out (by changing the orientation, adjusting speaker placement with REW measurements), the room tuning got to be fantastic.

My new house doesn't have a good space for a surround set up so I'm "making due" with stereo only off some new KEF LS60s ... also great.

 

[funnychap]

My house is currently being remodeled and I managed to broker a deal with my wife to update my home theater. I won't have a dedicated theater room, but it will be primarily be used to house my AV gear. I've received so many differing opinions from sales guys--it's driving me nuts, haha. I’m looking for feedback on speakers and design.

A bit about the room:

• It's on the second floor and has wood floors. We'll put down some heavy wool rugs and curtains to minimize sound reflection.
• The room is ~270 square feet. 17'4” wide, 16' long if you don’t count the stairwell. If you count that area, we’re looking at 19’4”.
• I own the couch, media console, and desk already, but all of the A/V equipment will be new (to me, I’ll may buy some stuff used).

Equipment ideas:

• Receiver: Denon AVR-X4800H or Marantz Cinema 40 - I want Atmos and Dirac
• TV: 77” LG G3 - couch seating is ~8'9" from the TV
• Towers: GoldenEar Triton One R
• Surrounds: GoldenEar BRX or MPX (Just read the BRX review and it wasn't very impressive, but it seems heavily recommended outside of this forum?)
• Center: GoldenEar SuperCenter Reference
• Sub: SVS SB-2000 (TBD, will likely add later)
• In-Ceiling: Goldenear Invisa HTR 7000

Primarily used for watching TV and movies, but I'll also listen to music on it regularly (mostly rock & blues).

Budget: ~$15k all-in, which should give me up to $10k to buy the speakers.

Rough mockups attached. Blue dots are in-ceiling, green are bookshelf, sub, center, and towers.

Would in-wall work with this setup? It seems like bookshelves would be better?


Bookshelves
View attachment 299577

In-wall
View attachment 299578

I hooked up the newer Denafrips Iris 12th (a DDC) to my Denafrips Ares II 12th (a DAC) and OMG!
1. Significant sound quality improvement (bigger stage, vocals).
2. Streaming from my iPhone 12 Pro max, even with the songs downloaded to my iphone, is more stable (no more hiccuping or skipping to the next song before finishing the current song).
3. Songs start quicker.
Conclusion: Worth every penny!
-----------
source=Apple Music (hires lossless, and spatial audio surround music) and Denafrips Ares II 12th dac (R2R technology for 3D live/realistic sound).