speaker upgrade for a tough room

[EdJ]

I currently have a 3.1.2 system with elac unifi UB5 and UC5 for LR & C that sound good for home theater but something is missing for music. The room has lots of reflections and the TV is on a 15' wall with the great room extending back 32.5' with a granite counter top, wood table, hardwood floors, 10' ceilings and glass windows and a glass sliding patio door on the side.

I was thinking of getting the ml XT F100s or B100s for L&R, but then was reading about center channels and am worried that the matching center C100 or better for looks the ml 8i won't be as good as my current center for HT. I'd prefer the center closer to the wall. Main listening and viewing position is about 13' back from the wall (11.5' from my current center chanell, but for football games I often have people sitting on couches and chairs on the side with fairly wide positions. We also watch from the granite counter top or table. For music during parties people are congregated all over the room, but congregated at the bar area far away from the front speakers.

I was also considering kef R3 or R7 with R2 or R6 for center. I liked the martin logans more in the listening room, but my room is so different I don't know what will sound best. Would take any suggestions.

Other parts of the system are SVS PB1000 subwoofer, and 2 polk in ceiling speakers for atmos all driven by a denon 920 AVR. I am willing to upgrade any or all of these, but want to get the front stage decided first.

 

[Ringer]

I just went through a similar problem trying to get 2-channel listening in my theater room. I have Bowers 607 in 5.1.2 with a 3700H AVR, sounds great for movies, but sucks for 2 channel. So, I bought R3's and played CD's in direct mode on the 3700H with a 4K player and it still kinda sucked. I finally gave up and bought a Marantz CD60 with an old Arcam 2 channel amplifier, and moved my 2-channel setup to the living room, I am now very happy with the sound. I can tell you that I did try the R3's as L/R with the Bowers for a movie, and it sounded terrible, I would not mix speaker types (there was an echo'ing effect during dialouge which sounded unnatural). I already went through a long process dialing of my HT, and was only finally happy with the sound after I got matching 607's for all of the 5 main channels.

I also had to go through some adjustments since I was not used to 2-channel listening, I guess I was expecting a 3-D sound field like my HT, and was initially disappointed with 2 channel sound. However, I kept after it and demo'd many CD's while my ears adjusted, and found that some tracks were mind blowing with outside the speaker imaging and separation, while other tracks were not good. 2-channel also lends to fantastic clarity. I also tried integrating a sub with the R3's and found it was not an improvement (the old Arcam A65+ a friend gave me does not have bass management). I am sure you could find an acceptable sound for music by playing around with different setups, but my suggestion is to treat music as a separate setup. Your friends and family might not notice mixed speakers and think it sounds great, but you will probably will notice it doesn't sound right. If you do get proper 2-channel sound, you are likely to be blown away; I listened to tracks I have listened to my whole life, and I couldn't believe how incredible it sounded on my new 2-channel set up (e.g Rush Moving pictures, Neil's drums were incredible).

 

[EdJ]

I just went through a similar problem trying to get 2-channel listening in my theater room. I have Bowers 607 in 5.1.2 with a 3700H AVR, sounds great for movies, but sucks for 2 channel. So, I bought R3's and played CD's in direct mode on the 3700H with a 4K player and it still kinda sucked. I finally gave up and bought a Marantz CD60 with an old Arcam 2 channel amplifier, and moved my 2-channel setup to the living room, I am now very happy with the sound. I can tell you that I did try the R3's as L/R with the Bowers for a movie, and it sounded terrible, I would not mix speaker types (there was an echo'ing effect during dialouge which sounded unnatural). I already went through a long process dialing of my HT, and was only finally happy with the sound after I got matching 607's for all of the 5 main channels.

I also had to go through some adjustments since I was not used to 2-channel listening, I guess I was expecting a 3-D sound field like my HT, and was initially disappointed with 2 channel sound. However, I kept after it and demo'd many CD's while my ears adjusted, and found that some tracks were mind blowing with outside the speaker imaging and separation, while other tracks were not good. 2-channel also lends to fantastic clarity. I also tried integrating a sub with the R3's and found it was not an improvement (the old Arcam A65+ a friend gave me does not have bass management). I am sure you could find an acceptable sound for music by playing around with different setups, but my suggestion is to treat music as a separate setup. Your friends and family might not notice mixed speakers and think it sounds great, but you will probably will notice it doesn't sound right. If you do get proper 2-channel sound, you are likely to be blown away; I listened to tracks I have listened to my whole life, and I couldn't believe how incredible it sounded on my new 2-channel set up (e.g Rush Moving pictures, Neil's drums were incredible).

Thanks I probably wrote my question wrong. I'd like the system to sound better playing 2.1 music throughout the large room than my elac unifi UB5 with sub. There are a lot of reflections and the room is not that treatable. I like the HT sound and the current center - elac UC50 has good off axis performance, and want it good for 45 degrees as seating area can go out to 60 degrees, but assume people sitting there care less.

Music is good in the prime listening area, but going back in the room there are reflections and resonances, and people are congregating here when they come over. I also would like better tweeters than in my current speakers. I think the martin logan B100s or F100s sound really good at spaces to compare but I am worried they won't sound great in this room. I thought the kef coaxial design might work better for that near seating area, so was thinking R3 or R7 with the R2 or R6 meta as the center.

 

[Head_Unit]

music throughout the large room...a lot of reflections and the room is not that treatable.

Ya know, we would love to see PICTURES, otherwise it's somewhat hard to imagine. I also listen a lot in a long room, I've been thinking I should get to something with controlled-dispersion horns is what I'm thinking. Like 8" two-way studio monitors, maybe powered.

Significant toe-in definitely helps. And maybe follow my own advice I'm about to give you which is that *some* amount of treatment probably works wonders compared to none...but sometimes those other people you live with interfere with those sonic decisions. Jeez come to think of it my listening position is awful, though it's a casual one. (For more serious listening I move up to the middle of the long room)

 

[raindance]

If the room sucks, either try a different room or fix it's deficiencies because it is the most significant contributer to what you hear.

 

[EdJ]

Ya know, we would love to see PICTURES, otherwise it's somewhat hard to imagine. I also listen a lot in a long room, I've been thinking I should get to something with controlled-dispersion horns is what I'm thinking. Like 8" two-way studio monitors, maybe powered.

Significant toe-in definitely helps. And maybe follow my own advice I'm about to give you which is that *some* amount of treatment probably works wonders compared to none...but sometimes those other people you live with interfere with those sonic decisions. Jeez come to think of it my listening position is awful, though it's a casual one. (For more serious listening I move up to the middle of the long room)

Thanks. Here are photos the first shows the front of the room from about 30' back. and one from the side of the windows and sliding glass door. On the table there are some art accoustic panels that I'm trying on the left side wall. I can also put deadening on the front wall if that helps. Let me know what I should do to treat the room. furniture arrangement is fairly fixed, and the hardwood floors and countertop reflex.

I bought kef r3 (non meta) on the best buy sale, that should arrive tuesday, I will try them and see if I can position so they work, and if they do will buy the center r2c or r6 meta. Entertainment center is going, so would be figuring new things and perhaps just speaker shelves from the wall. I don't think back firing kef floor standing will work, but some bottom or front ported speakers may. I am also thinking of getting 2 speakers just for music and others for the home theater portion. Really home theater from main seating position is good, and the wide dispersion elac makes it sound ok on the sides. I'd like the sound to be good further back in the room for music.

 

[Ringer]

I can relate to that room, we have an open floor plan with limited options on where to put the speakers. Luckily, my KEF R3 sound best where they need to go (against the main wall flanking the wall mounted TV). I went all the way down the rabbit hole and upgraded my Amp as well, so now I have KEF R3 + SS5 stands + CD60 + Model 30 + KC62 sub. I have the speakers about 8ft apart and pulled about a foot from the walls, the sub is on a stand at similar height to speakers, also a foot from the wall, with driver pointed into the room. This is the best sound I have ever owned and I am entertained by nearly every CD I play. We listened to church organs this AM, and it sounded so good. I think once you start pursuing an upgraded sound, you have to go all the way, then you will feel justified in the ridiculous expenditure because it brings you so much joy. Just give those R3's a chance, I actually returned my first pair, but kept thinking they had something special that I had to check them out a second time to be sure, so glad I did, keeping them this time.

 

[Head_Unit]

Here are photos

Worth a thousand words! Yes, a tough room. Acoustical panels on the left actually might not be good since then the right will give all the reflections off the glass. But with seating on both sides, directional speakers might not be great either. Wait, I've got it: Klipschorns! OK perhaps rather more than you wanted to spend but their cross-fired directivity would probably work well. Mmmmm musing aloud some more, I'm still inclined towards something with some directivity, shoved near the corners and cross-fired a lot. Even conventional speakers that's still what I'd try. One positive is it seems you have flexibility with positioning up front.

Treatment I don't consider myself an expert. Vertical reflections are supposed to be the real killer but who among us is going to put thick absorbent foam on the ceiling? Personally I can't afford the divorce attorney

 

[EdJ]

Thanks for the replies. I received the R3's yesterday but don't think they will work, but will try some things. They seem to be two narrow directionally, to have good sound sitting and standing. My speaker stands are too high for them (29") but when I flipped the speakers it did sound better in the main listening sitting position, but worse out in the back of the room. I am going to try a couple of 22" tables where I can angle them and they will sit lower tomorrow. Definitely a lot less reflections than my current speakers but I doubt I can dial in. I have some time to return for a refund and I would love them to work out.

I do have total flexibility upfront. Probably need book shelves if they need to be more than 9' apart, but can use floor standing at about 9' apart. I can go about 18" from the front wall with floor standing further with bookshelves.

Yes the Klipshorns are too expensive for me. I am thinking ml XT F100 or B100, or maybe revel 208 or m105, or maybe klipch if you can recomend a lower priced one

 

[Head_Unit]

Yes the Klipshorns are too expensive for me. I am thinking ml XT F100 or B100, or maybe revel 208 or m105, or maybe klipch if you can recomend a lower priced one

These days, they're not catching many of those masked people that smash-and-grab jewelry stores. Just saying.

Or I suppose you could try some Klipsch towers kind of out towards the corners, and firing in like 45 degrees. They have big horns, still directional, which will minimize energy splashing off the wall and window.
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_714RF7S3B/Klipsch-Reference-RF-7-III-Black-Ash.html?tp=185
Actually I got curious and looked at eBay, you might well find a used set in your area on eBay or some other audio forum.

There's also these
https://www.jtrspeakers.com/home-audio
which are rather industrial looking, but perhaps available with other colors if you ask. And these well-designed towers
https://www.crutchfield.com/S-cngytN44Xsc/p_109HDI38WL/JBL-HDI-3800-Satin-Walnut.html
Then this kind of outlier setup, but if positioned and aimed right reduce ceiling/floor bounce
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-70j-1-review-constant-beam-transducer.21469/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...jbl-cbt-70je-1-review-cbt-bass-speaker.21562/