3e Audio SY-DAPx002 TPA3250/TPA3255 DSP Amplifier

[vince_eco]

I would need to open my unit (TPA3250 version) to see exactly what type of cable and how many connections are used between the two boards. Most of the these cables only have tracks on one side - Not sure how the main board talks to the front panel but most likely multiplexed with minimal connections required ?

I have also found 3e-Audio most helpful and they should be able to give you the information or even send you a new cable. They are present on this Group.

Thanks, I think I've found some on AliExpress FFC FPC Socket 1.0mm

 

[Bushellj]

Thanks, I think I've found some on AliExpress FFC FPC Socket 1.0mm

Just be aware that after Jan 1 that all items imported from China, however small the value will become eligible for VAT !! The £15 free of VAT concession stops which is going to be a real pain for all the bits I have imported in the past through AliExpress. You may get hit with the Post Office £8 handling charge as well. This looks as if it’s a real mess at the moment but we will see.

I would probably find something in the UK in the short term - It might well prove to be cheaper.

 

[vince_eco]

Just be aware that after Jan 1 that all items imported from China, however small the value will become eligible for VAT !! The £15 free of VAT concession stops which is going to be a real pain for all the bits I have imported in the past through AliExpress. You may get hit with the Post Office £8 handling charge as well. This looks as if it’s a real mess at the moment but we will see.

I would probably find something in the UK in the short term - It might well prove to be cheaper.

Nope I didn't know that, after you said I did look at the new HRMC import tariffs, these seem to indicate a 0% on electronics from China. Do you have a link to the removal of the £15 concession? Glad I bought the amp this year now.

 

[Bushellj]

Nope I didn't know that, after you said I did look at the new HRMC import tariffs, these seem to indicate a 0% on electronics from China. Do you have a link to the removal of the £15 concession? Glad I bought the amp this year now.

Remember there are import tariffs which vary by product category and then there is VAT - currently 20% which will be applied to everything that you import into the UK. The Post Office currently charge £8 to process these taxes. Other couriers may be different.

All the information is on the government web site

 

[vince_eco]

Remember there are import tariffs which vary by product category and then there is VAT - currently 20% which will be applied to everything that you import into the UK. The Post Office currently charge £8 to process these taxes. Other couriers may be different.

All the information is on the government web site

Cheers, think I'll give RS a ring Monday and see if they can help sort me out.

 

[Ralferator]

Does the DSP in the amplifier do anything when it's not programmed? Does it change the behavior of the amp? Or would a Aiyima A07 make more sense for me if i don't use the DSP?
If i want to use it with a pair of speakers that is rated 8 Ohm but has their minimum at 4,5 Ohm, would you guys get the 4 Ohm or 8 Ohm version?

 

[daftcombo]

Tested today @ @renaudrenaud 's: 3e-Audio SY-DAP2002, 4 ohm version, with ELAC DBR-62.

That amplifier can drive the ELAC to loud levels without any problem. No clippling could be heard.

But, after switching to our dual mono cards (TPA3255 from 3e-Audio also), the sound seemed cleaner to both of us on mids and treble. The mono cards were fed by a laboratory power supply, with 30V then 48V. It was better with 48V.

Our hypothesis is that the ADC to DAC in the SY-DAP2002 is degrading the sound somehow. Perhaps it would be nice to have a simple amplifier with no DSP?

 

[Bushellj]

Tested today @ @renaudrenaud 's: 3e-Audio SY-DAP2002, 4 ohm version, with ELAC DBR-62.

That amplifier can drive the ELAC to loud levels without any problem. No clippling could be heard.

But, after switching to our dual mono cards (TPA3255 from 3e-Audio also), the sound seemed cleaner to both of us on mids and treble. The mono cards were fed by a laboratory power supply, with 30V then 48V. It was better with 48V.

Our hypothesis is that the ADC to DAC in the SY-DAP2002 is degrading the sound somehow. Perhaps it would be nice to have a simple amplifier with no DSP?

I think I agree with you that that the DSP limits the Sound Quality of these amplifiers. I am guessing the DSP chip has some pretty basic ADC and DAC circuits compared to the "State of the Art" DAC chips used in the more audiophile quality converters.

In the SY-DAP2002 (and the TPA3250 version) the DSP is there for two functions - One is to provide an intelligent and seamless integration of the Bluetooth function in that when there is no Bluetooth audio the amplifier reverts back to the RCA Analogue inputs - So much cleaner than other implementations ! The other is to provide the capability of EQ matching the amplifier to speakers or the room. For most people this will not be something they will use as it is probably too complex.

In answer to "Ralferator" above, the DSP is always in the circuit regardless of whether it is being used for EQ or not. If you just want an amplifier with no Bluetooth then you may well be better off with the A04 (TPA3251) and A07 (TPA3255) amplifiers. Just be very careful when you order off AliExpress to get the right models with the larger (twin) Power Supply Capacitors.

For domestic use I also prefer the integrated amplifiers as they are much easier to install but you will almost certainly sacrifice some Sound Quality as most of these are made down to a price rather than optimised for Sound Quality. You need to pay a lot more money to get a serious integrated amplifier !! Just read the reviews by Danny and some of the other guys on this Group - Also check out the DIY Audio Site.

 

[Ralferator]

I think I agree with you that that the DSP limits the Sound Quality of these amplifiers. I am guessing the DSP chip has some pretty basic ADC and DAC circuits compared to the "State of the Art" DAC chips used in the more audiophile quality converters.

In the SY-DAP2002 (and the TPA3250 version) the DSP is there for two functions - One is to provide an intelligent and seamless integration of the Bluetooth function in that when there is no Bluetooth audio the amplifier reverts back to the RCA Analogue inputs - So much cleaner than other implementations ! The other is to provide the capability of EQ matching the amplifier to speakers or the room. For most people this will not be something they will use as it is probably too complex.

In answer to "Ralferator" above, the DSP is always in the circuit regardless of whether it is being used for EQ or not. If you just want an amplifier with no Bluetooth then you may well be better off with the A04 (TPA3251) and A07 (TPA3255) amplifiers. Just be very careful when you order off AliExpress to get the right models with the larger (twin) Power Supply Capacitors.

For domestic use I also prefer the integrated amplifiers as they are much easier to install but you will almost certainly sacrifice some Sound Quality as most of these are made down to a price rather than optimised for Sound Quality. You need to pay a lot more money to get a serious integrated amplifier !! Just read the reviews by Danny and some of the other guys on this Group - Also check out the DIY Audio Site.

Thank you for your answer. But I am still wondering why the bigger capacitors should be so imporant. I quote member Tangband here:

"Texas application notes says 1000 uF is enough. Theres a lot of mumbo-jumbo spreading att diy audio saying that you need much more.
This amplifiers are made for switch mode supplies that already has a regulated output. They dont need a lot of capacitance at their outputs. The result with a lot of capacitance after the switch mode power supply can be WORSE than with less.

”The large capacitors used in conjunction with each full-bridge, are referred to as the PVDD Capacitors. These capacitors should be selected for proper voltage margin and adequate capacitance to support the power requirements. In practice, with a well designed system power supply, 1000 μF, 80 V supports most applications. The PVDD capacitors should be low ESR type because they are used in a circuit associated with high-speed switching.”

https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa3255.pdf?ts=1607924722487&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F "

Also i read some other comments here on the board where people are saying that the Aiyima A07 sounds just fine and that all the OP amp rolling doesn't really make sense. So there is mainly two groups - the people who hear huge differences and others who hear almost no difference at all.

I am wondering if the truth is somewhere in between. What makes me question that the sound differences play such a big roll are the raving reviews from Amir about the JBL LSR 308 or the Kali L6. Their amplifiers seem to be no where as good or clean as even the cheap chinese TPA3255 variants, still the speakers seem to sound awesome. I bet if Amir would measure and review only the Amplifiers of the JBL LSR 308, he would not recommend them at all. In an active speaker though the results seem very good.

 

[Bushellj]

Thank you for your answer. But I am still wondering why the bigger capacitors should be so imporant. I quote member Tangband here:

"Texas application notes says 1000 uF is enough. Theres a lot of mumbo-jumbo spreading att diy audio saying that you need much more.
This amplifiers are made for switch mode supplies that already has a regulated output. They dont need a lot of capacitance at their outputs. The result with a lot of capacitance after the switch mode power supply can be WORSE than with less.

”The large capacitors used in conjunction with each full-bridge, are referred to as the PVDD Capacitors. These capacitors should be selected for proper voltage margin and adequate capacitance to support the power requirements. In practice, with a well designed system power supply, 1000 μF, 80 V supports most applications. The PVDD capacitors should be low ESR type because they are used in a circuit associated with high-speed switching.”

https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa3255.pdf?ts=1607924722487&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F "

Also i read some other comments here on the board where people are saying that the Aiyima A07 sounds just fine and that all the OP amp rolling doesn't really make sense. So there is mainly two groups - the people who hear huge differences and others who hear almost no difference at all.

I am wondering if the truth is somewhere in between. What makes me question that the sound differences play such a big roll are the raving reviews from Amir about the JBL LSR 308 or the Kali L6. Their amplifiers seem to be no where as good or clean as even the cheap chinese TPA3255 variants, still the speakers seem to sound awesome. I bet if Amir would measure and review only the Amplifiers of the JBL LSR 308, he would not recommend them at all. In an active speaker though the results seem very good.

The models with the twin PS Capacitors tend to have better quality components on all parts of the board. The later models with only one PS Capacity appear to be cost reduced versions and I would avoid. So my comments were not just driven by the Capacitors but just that the earlier models tended to be better built !!

 

[Ralferator]

Tested today @ @renaudrenaud 's: 3e-Audio SY-DAP2002, 4 ohm version, with ELAC DBR-62.

That amplifier can drive the ELAC to loud levels without any problem. No clippling could be heard.

But, after switching to our dual mono cards (TPA3255 from 3e-Audio also), the sound seemed cleaner to both of us on mids and treble. The mono cards were fed by a laboratory power supply, with 30V then 48V. It was better with 48V.

Our hypothesis is that the ADC to DAC in the SY-DAP2002 is degrading the sound somehow. Perhaps it would be nice to have a simple amplifier with no DSP?

Did you hear a big difference or was it rather small?

 

[daftcombo]

Did you hear a big difference or was it rather small?

Difficult to say. I didn't "hear" a difference. I rather felt that I didn't feel like turning the knob and raise the volume anymore after some time with the SY-DAP2002.

I didn't have that feeling with the mono cards on the same tracks.

But we didn't get back to the SY-DAP2002 after listening with the mono cards.

@renaudrenaud knows his favorite tracks better than me, and I let him the SY-DAP2002 to test during the Xmas holiday, so perhaps he will give you more insight later.

 

[renaudrenaud]

Difficult to say. I didn't "hear" a difference. I rather felt that I didn't feel like turning the knob and raise the volume anymore after some time with the SY-DAP2002.

I didn't have that feeling with the mono cards on the same tracks.

But we didn't get back to the SY-DAP2002 after listening with the mono cards.

@renaudrenaud knows his favorite tracks better than me, and I let him the SY-DAP2002 to test during the Xmas holiday, so perhaps he will give you more insight later.

Well, I would say the SY-DAP2002 and the mono cards are not playing in the same league at all. The SY is not bad relative to his price. If I autorise myself for audiophile poetry (please excuse me in advance) I can try to write about the subjective differences I was feeling. The SY in comparison to the two mono cards lacks of dynamic, the medium and highs are not "clean", lacks of definition. We push the cursor clearly high with the mono cards where the SY cannot go because power difference and it still was clean.

Interesting fact, using a lab power supply, I started at 30V for the mono cards but they were clipping abit early (clipping LED was blinking) but going to 48V, no more clipping and clean loud sound: we were using a pair of Eleac BDR62 and they like lot of power.

I really would like to see a brother of the SY-DAP2002 without internal ADC and DAC to only have a pure TPA3255.

Another point, I think the option to program something in the SY is too complex at the time we can do something in the player with softwares like REW, APO or Daphile: these softwares have community and plenty of help is available. Maybe I am wrong and the development IDE is easy to learn ? But in the other side, I like to do some things with open source softwares and I do not like the licences (maybe I did not read enough on the subject).

I will add I am not a reference in any subject, I just explain my feelings, I have the right to have some feelings, but they are mine and they are not important.

 

[Zek]

two mono cards

Any info or link to this mono boards, please.

 

[renaudrenaud]

Any info or link to this mono boards, please.

Sorry, I tought it was obvious. This is 3eAudio mono card.

https://www.3e-audio.com/amplifier-kits/tpa3255-1ch-480w/

something like 60$ each. You can't go wrong.

 

[Ralferator]

Well, I would say the SY-DAP2002 and the mono cards are not playing in the same league at all. The SY is not bad relative to his price. If I autorise myself for audiophile poetry (please excuse me in advance) I can try to write about the subjective differences I was feeling. The SY in comparison to the two mono cards lacks of dynamic, the medium and highs are not "clean", lacks of definition. We push the cursor clearly high with the mono cards where the SY cannot go because power difference and it still was clean.

Interesting fact, using a lab power supply, I started at 30V for the mono cards but they were clipping abit early (clipping LED was blinking) but going to 48V, no more clipping and clean loud sound: we were using a pair of Eleac BDR62 and they like lot of power.

I really would like to see a brother of the SY-DAP2002 without internal ADC and DAC to only have a pure TPA3255.

Another point, I think the option to program something in the SY is too complex at the time we can do something in the player with softwares like REW, APO or Daphile: these softwares have community and plenty of help is available. Maybe I am wrong and the development IDE is easy to learn ? But in the other side, I like to do some things with open source softwares and I do not like the licences (maybe I did not read enough on the subject).

I will add I am not a reference in any subject, I just explain my feelings, I have the right to have some feelings, but they are mine and they are not important.

View attachment 100715

Thank you for your impressions. It sounds like you compared the amps at rather high volume. Did you also hear big differences at lower volume?

 

[renaudrenaud]

Thank you for your impressions. It sounds like you compared the amps at rather high volume. Did you also hear big differences at lower volume?

At low volume, the SY sounds to me with less dynamic. I can listen to it these days, I am in holidays tomorrow, but I would like to avoid too much subjective comments. Measurement from @amirm will be an objective set of data and we will know exactly. I hope it will be better than the AD-18.

 

[daftcombo]

I remember now that 3e-Audio said that the SY-DAP1002 (TPA3250) was cleaner. But still with ADC/DAC.

 

[renaudrenaud]

I remember now that 3e-Audio said that the SY-DAP1002 (TPA3250) was cleaner. But still with ADC/DAC.

Do I have the authorisation to open the box?

 

[Zek]

open the box