$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[MKR]

Hi


In passing, save for the JBL M2, 4367 and the Danley Signature, I am not sure any of those speakers, yes, including the Salon 2would keep up in term of SPL with the Genelec 8361 + W371.
I am not sure any of these speakers by their lone selves can match the bass output of the 8361 + W371A combo. In room or anechoic.
Also the W371A can manipulate their output and pattern/directivity, to cope with room modes. This can be accomplished with multiple subwoofers of course, with some degree of complexity an will take some amount of real estate ...

It seems that the Genelec combos click all the right buttons IMO, IME .
Good luck...

Peace.

Maybe, but I am not convinced Genelec combo can exceed output level of Salon 2 (assuming one uses appropriate amplification and bass management), at equivalent levels of distortion of course.

And with the right pricing on Salon 2, it can be done for lower cost than the crazy expensive W371s. Also, if room is treated and/or other room correction with Salon (Trinnov for example), the benefit of the adjustable pattern/directivity of W371 is no more. Of course the Genelec combo provides a fully self contained and elegant solution, no doubt about it. But some of us like to play with all the toys, and with Genelec you have a “closed” system. I suppose one could say the Genelec combo is the Apple of high-end audio . On that note, I am still trying to figure out how to do home theater with an active solution. Passive home theater is much more straight forward in that aspect. For pure 2ch listening, active systems are very compelling, but when you add in home theater, they lose a bit of their luster, IMHO

Note as stated previously, the most comparable active to the Genelec, and the one that I think has best chance to knock it from it’s apparent throne, is the GGNTKT M3. But again, that is purely hypothetical right now.

Maybe @Purité Audio (Keith) can give us an update on the M3 availability?

 

[Purité Audio]

I will enquire!
Keith

 

[srrxr71]

It has 400W per woofer when the 8361A has 350W. Also the woofers are many times larger so they're more efficient, that's really where the far higher SPL comes from.

I don't think people entirely get how insane the W371A is. It is much more powerful than any 4x8" HiFi floorstander like the Revel Salon 2. Only the biggest main monitors and a few extreme compression driver HT speakers exceed it.

Actually the 8361 bass driver(s) gets 700w.

But they are doing almost nothing in this configuration. If I wanted higher output and to utilize them more I could limit the crossover to 150Hz. Right now by default it’s at 250Hz. So it’s handling 250-320. I don’t feel it doing much.

Makes me think probably 8351 would have been enough.

 

[jhenderson0107]

...Also, if room is treated and/or other room correction with Salon (Trinnov for example), the benefit of the adjustable pattern/directivity of W371 is no more. Of course the Genelec combo provides a fully self contained and elegant solution, no doubt about it. But some of us like to play with all the toys, and with Genelec you have a “closed” system. ....On that note, I am still trying to figure out how to do home theater with an active solution. Passive home theater is much more straight forward in that aspect. For pure 2ch listening, active systems are very compelling, but when you add in home theater, they lose a bit of their luster, IMHO

1. Using the Trinnov in conjunction with the W371 certainly does not preclude utilizing Genelec pattern/directivity control modes. I use this directivity mode with the W371+8351 (L/R) in my home theater driven by an Altitude 16.
2. Use of active monitors in a home theater is only slightly more complicated than using passive speakers. While it is necessary to provide AC power and a line-level signal to each monitor, CAT5-XLR adapters (depicted below) simplify the latter. My system has seven base layer active monitors (5 8361As + the W371+8351 L/R pair). The Trinnov provides digital AES/EBU to L/C/R and XLR differential to the remaining 8361s. There is no discernable lag or lip-sync mismatch.

 

[goskers]

I try not to read and really try not to reply to audio threads any longer. Reason being is that I finally don’t care to consider a different path with any more changes. I have owned most of these speakers and systems in question. I now own the Genelec 8361. These have provided a better sense of correctness versus anything else I have owned. This doesn’t mean they are splashy, in fact, the exact opposite is true. They are cohesive in a way that none other has been. I can’t really describe all of the specifics and don’t care to try.
Genelec offers a product with the ‘One‘ series that I feel is superior to most others. Throw in the ability to add supplemental items such as woofers, subwoofers and surrounds and you have upgrade paths. Lastly is the GLM software which gives you theoretical plug and play and you have completeness.
My only personal wish is that I would have landed on these long ago so I could have saved the money. The journey itself is more compelling to most than the end result I’m afraid which is why we all hangout and chat.

 

[srrxr71]

It has 400W per woofer when the 8361A has 350W. Also the woofers are many times larger so they're more efficient, that's really where the far higher SPL comes from.

I don't think people entirely get how insane the W371A is. It is much more powerful than any 4x8" HiFi floorstander like the Revel Salon 2. Only the biggest main monitors and a few extreme compression driver HT speakers exceed it.

Yeah I think comes down to the fact that these will alert you when they deviate from perfect. A passive will distort without any warning. There is a lot of headroom in this. Also so satisfying even at lower levels. Right now i’m around 93 dBc. Sounds so incredible.

Just mathematically it’s pretty obvious they beat Salon 2. But probably not M2.

 

[srrxr71]

1. Using the Trinnov in conjunction with the W371 certainly does not preclude utilizing Genelec pattern/directivity control modes. I use this directivity mode with the W371+8351 (L/R) in my home theater driven by an Altitude 16.
2. Use of active monitors in a home theater is only slightly more complicated than using passive speakers. While it is necessary to provide AC power and a line-level signal to each monitor, CAT5-XLR adapters (depicted below) simplify the latter. My system has seven base layer active monitors (5 8361As + the W371+8251 L/R pair). The Trinnov provides digital AES/EBU to L/C/R and XLR differential to the remaining 8361s. There is no discernable lag or lip-sync mismatch.

View attachment 249293

That last piece. That day the audiophile inside me will die. I feel like already that audiophile died.

 

[srrxr71]

I try not to read and really try not to reply to audio threads any longer. Reason being is that I finally don’t care to consider a different path with any more changes. I have owned most of these speakers and systems in question. I now own the Genelec 8361. These have provided a better sense of correctness versus anything else I have owned. This doesn’t mean they are splashy, in fact, the exact opposite is true. They are cohesive in a way that none other has been. I can’t really describe all of the specifics and don’t care to try.
Genelec offers a product with the ‘One‘ series that I feel is superior to most others. Throw in the ability to add supplemental items such as woofers, subwoofers and surrounds and you have upgrade paths. Lastly is the GLM software which gives you theoretical plug and play and you have completeness.
My only personal wish is that I would have landed on these long ago so I could have saved the money. The journey itself is more compelling to most than the end result I’m afraid which is why we all hangout and chat.

I feel so much the same. This line is 10 years old. That’s 10 years I wasted of my life without these.

Also the upgrade path is so important. We all save a certain % for this so future upgrade path matters a lot. You can’t go wrong with any level of this system. Absolutely life changing.

 

[jhenderson0107]

1. The pursuit of an "end-game" system is folly. I thought the Linkwitz Orions were end-game speakers and the AKG K1000's were end-game headphones. The LX-521's have replaced the Orions and I generally prefer the 800s to the K1000's.
2. A single system can be used for two-channel and home-theater audio reproduction, but the goals of home theater are different and broader. So space and budget permitting, different toolchains are merited to avoid over-complicating stereo reproduction or over-simplifying theater playback.

Originally, I planned to build LX-521s for the theater room and supplement them with some LX-Minis and subs. But upon investigation, eschewed dipoles for HT use since they typically require placement away from room boundaries and intentionally diffuse the sound field, distorting object placement during movie playback. So I changed directions and went with the Genelecs.

If I'm still healthy in ten-years time, something will likely come along to displace all my current gear. So enjoy your pick now and don't pursue permanence.

 

[tifune]

@FrantzM I removed the 8C and Kii for the same reasons you cited, output limitations for large listening spaces

I'm still not really clear where this is coming from. If Erin was able to achieve 105dB @ 4m with no audible artifacts, what's missing? More low end than +15dB @ 30Hz, you're further than 4m?

 

[Vacceo]

There isn't a whole lot of evidence that's true unless you're making unreasonable comparisons. Here's the Kef Reference 1 vs the Perlisten S4B. The Kef actually performs better here, and the only reason the Perlisten "appears" to have a low bass advantage is because it's not trying to play bass at all, it slopes it off super quickly. With a sub, the Kef seems like the better dynamic performer to me.

Spoiler

If you compare the Perlisten S4B to the LS50 or something like that, then yeah.... it's going to win lol. But right now you can buy freakin' Kef R11s for less than the price of the R4Bs...

I would say it's true Perlisten offers better dynamic capacity IF you have infinite money AND you have space constraints. But um, in that case, I would just buy Neumann KH150s and spend my huge pile of saved money on drugs or something.

The examples you provided led me to think, what about the mid-range speakers of each of the mentioned manufacturers? I mean, Perlisten builds the R line for a fraction of the price just as KEF produces the R line too for a fraction of the Reference. In a not so big environment (let´s give it a 6mx5,5mx3 meter tall room) I have the feeling that you´d be wasting the massive SPL capability of the Perlisten R and even more so on the S line; while you could be getting a very similar result with the more humble KEF R´s for a fraction of the money.

And you could spend the difference in drugs and streaming suscriptions to get a huge enjoyement too, like you mentioned.

 

[Sancus]

Actually the 8361 bass driver(s) gets 700w.

But they are doing almost nothing in this configuration. If I wanted higher output and to utilize them more I could limit the crossover to 150Hz. Right now by default it’s at 250Hz. So it’s handling 250-320. I don’t feel it doing much.

Makes me think probably 8351 would have been enough.

That's interesting, the crossover is set during calibration and other people have reported it being set lower than that. But it depends on your room and what it determines from measurements.

Also re-read the sentence lol. The W371A gets 2x400W, the 8361A gets 700W for both woofers so it's 350W/ea. They both have two separate drivers.

Also, if room is treated and/or other room correction with Salon (Trinnov for example), the benefit of the adjustable pattern/directivity of W371 is no more.

Controlled directivity eliminates bad reflections, room correction just tries to fix them after the fact. It's not the same. You need pretty serious treatment, like 6" absorbers to help in the W371A's range. And it has other side effects. If you are willing to treat your room that much then it can be an alternative but I would still say you're better off with both.

 

[Adi777]

Maybe the GGNTKT M3

I'll be listening to these speakers next year, and I hope compare with Grimm Audio, Kii Three, Dutch & Dutch.

@Bugal1998 Can the potential too much brightness in the JBL M2 be offset by the acoustically transparent screen?

 

[srrxr71]

That's interesting, the crossover is set during calibration and other people have reported it being set lower than that. But it depends on your room and what it determines from measurements.

Also re-read the sentence lol. The W371A gets 2x400W, the 8361A gets 700W for both woofers so it's 350W/ea. They both have two separate drivers.

Controlled directivity eliminates bad reflections, room correction just tries to fix them after the fact. It's not the same. You need pretty serious treatment, like 6" absorbers to help in the W371A's range. And it has other side effects. If you are willing to treat your room that much then it can be an alternative but I would still say you're better off with both.

Yep haha I’d like to think I have some idea what comprises this system.

So you were right. This is an excellent apartment system.

It throws such impactful bass at the listening position but outside of it sounds like nothing.

I don’t know what kind of voodoo these are doing.

I’m still in complementary mode and I’ll probably spend a week or more with each mode.

Being in the line of fire of these is heart stopping. Just glorious.

I feel like it’s using some beam forming strategy even in complementary mode. Someone can correct me if that is not true. I cannot otherwise explain this.

Also for center channel purposes I bet you could aim it upwards from a horizontal position and put an 8351 at the head. Of course it will be asymmetrical but it should work.

 

[Adi777]

I feel like it’s using some beam forming strategy even in complementary mode. Someone can correct me if that is not true. I cannot otherwise explain this.

I think it's love

 

[Bugal1998]

I'll be listening to these speakers next year, and I hope compare with Grimm Audio, Kii Three, Dutch & Dutch.

@Bugal1998 Can the potential too much brightness in the JBL M2 be offset by the acoustically transparent screen?

Possibly, depending on the screen... Some screens may even reduce it too much. Doesn't matter though, the built-in in EQ will let you optimize the system for the specific application.

Let me be clear, the brightness is a complete non-issue if any effort has been made to dial in the system; unfortunately, a number of the more notable reviews/shootouts appear to have been tested with no tweaking. Just like some speakers have built-in bass/mid/treble controls, the M2 has a suite of EQ capabilities to easily adjust the tonal tilt to any listener preference (imagine if a speaker with a built-in tweeter level control was knocked for being too bright and no effort was made to use the tone control). Thanks to the impressive directivity attributes, the sound responds just as you would expect.

 

[Sancus]

feel like it’s using some beam forming strategy even in complementary mode.

It's possible. We don't know much about that mode other than the line in the manual that just says "Complementary mode where the two woofers operate independently to implement a flat frequency response; this is the default operating mode."

That sounds to me like something where they're just EQing each woofer separately so that they compensate for eachother, something like multi-sub optimizer. But there could be more to it than that. They don't really provide any other information or diagrams unlike for the other modes. Could ask Genelec Support I guess /shrug.

It throws such impactful bass at the listening position but outside of it sounds like nothing.

I don’t know what kind of voodoo these are doing.

Glad you're enjoying them, I hope to be able to add them to my system at some point But probably not for a while.

 

[Absolute]

Have anyone posted any measurements before and after w371? Controlled directivity is all well and nice, but controlled directivity doesn't mean that there's no sound outside the beam. The first reflection cancellation from the front wall is likely to be all but gone, but steady state takes awhile to build up and by then the directivity doesn't mean much.

I really fail to see what the w371 does that you can't do better with a couple of subs and some absorption, but would love to be proven wrong. Measurements or it's all just hype.

 

[MKR]

Hi


In passing, save for the JBL M2, 4367 and the Danley Signature, I am not sure any of those speakers, yes, including the Salon 2would keep up in term of SPL with the Genelec 8361 + W371.
I am not sure any of these speakers by their lone selves can match the bass output of the 8361 + W371A combo. In room or anechoic.
Also the W371A can manipulate their output and pattern/directivity, to cope with room modes. This can be accomplished with multiple subwoofers of course, with some degree of complexity an will take some amount of real estate ...

It seems that the Genelec combos click all the right buttons IMO, IME .
Good luck...

Peace.

You may be correct, but without measurements it is all hypothetical. As to dealing with room modes, plenty of other solutions that can do this for much lower cost than the W371.

Also, the W371 is not a subwoofer and for theater you will still need to add subs for the infrasonics with this system. Well, I suppose you don’t have to, but being a bass freak I certainly would do so … And for the record, if I go with the Salon 2s, I will have plenty of funds remaining to add multiple additional subs. Which for my large listening area, i expect will offer a higher level of performance and placement flexibility. More than one way to skin the cat here for same or less money than Ones+371

 

[MKR]

1. Using the Trinnov in conjunction with the W371 certainly does not preclude utilizing Genelec pattern/directivity control modes. I use this directivity mode with the W371+8351 (L/R) in my home theater driven by an Altitude 16.
2. Use of active monitors in a home theater is only slightly more complicated than using passive speakers. While it is necessary to provide AC power and a line-level signal to each monitor, CAT5-XLR adapters (depicted below) simplify the latter. My system has seven base layer active monitors (5 8361As + the W371+8351 L/R pair). The Trinnov provides digital AES/EBU to L/C/R and XLR differential to the remaining 8361s. There is no discernable lag or lip-sync mismatch.

View attachment 249293

In the case of the Trinnov (or similar EQ solution), I meant using it with the Salon 2 to equal the function of the W371 (I fully understand not possible to fully equal, but you can get close)

As to the adapters for home theater, good idea, but just more stuff in the signal chain to potentially muck up the fidelity. Certainly not ideal