- Thread Starter
- #741
Correct, essentially it is a re-badged Trinnov
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker
- Thread starter MKR
- Start date
- Status
- Thread Starter
- #742
Well? We are all waiting … got those 371s fired up yet?
Ahhhh IC.Hey @Doodski Sorry, not sure I am following? SDP75 not an amp, but a surround sound processor (plus Trinnov EQ). For amplification on the M2s, dealer is using the Crown solution. For Salon 2s, the Levinson monos (of course, since they are a Harman line dealer
I had a mental lapse... 
I have 590s in my living room and have played them side-by-side with the M2s; configurations included unequalized, equalized with Dirac Live, and with and without subs.Funny you should mention that, I was thinking same … use the JBLs for rears (and I have the 590s by the way, not the 580s
590s are nice sounding speakers, especially for the routinely seen sale prices. The M2s allowed me to hear more ambiance and spaciousness in recordings, cast a wider/deeper soundstage, and brought all around greater output and clarity (guessing these observations may be different manifestations of the same differences). Oddly enough, after listening to the 590s exclusively for two weeks, my strongest impression going back to the M2 was simply relief. They're just a clearer easier speaker to listen to.
- Thread Starter
- #746
Well, I suppose that is a testament to the value of the 590s vs the M2s that while not the equal, they can hold their own! Still can’t believe I only paid $760 for these 590s! And I do agree the 590s can sound “tipped up”, but I do not hear this on all recordings. In other words, the 590s are ruthlessly revealing of bad recordings (and likely poor components also).
Thanks for that comparison!
There isn't a whole lot of evidence that's true unless you're making unreasonable comparisons. Here's the Kef Reference 1 vs the Perlisten S4B. The Kef actually performs better here, and the only reason the Perlisten "appears" to have a low bass advantage is because it's not trying to play bass at all, it slopes it off super quickly. With a sub, the Kef seems like the better dynamic performer to me.
I would say it's true Perlisten offers better dynamic capacity IF you have infinite money AND you have space constraints. But um, in that case, I would just buy Neumann KH150s and spend my huge pile of saved money on drugs or something.
For what it's worth, I didn't find the 590s to have much of a tilt toward trebel; on some recordings, certainly yes, but not in general, so I, too, blame the recordings. But the M2s can be far more ruthlessly revealing in an over-damped space (this trait is meaningfully diminished but not completely eliminated in my finalized and more lively space).
And it's not just a high frequency 'thing'. I'll give a specific example that sort of epitomizes the difference in clarity: no matter what I tried, the guitar strumming in the opening of Tracy Chapman's Give Me One Reason sounded slightly like listening through fuzz, especially the lowest notes, with the 590s, but wonderfully clear through the M2. If I'd never heard the M2, I would have had no idea it should sound better. Is it distortions, resonances, on or off-axis frequency deviations? No idea...
Also, be skeptical of comments on tonal balance (including mine!). I've had two friends with an interest in audio listen to my current system using the same settings a few days apart... When I asked for feedback, one said my system was biased slightly toward treble, and the other friend told me it was slightly dull sounding with too much bass. Who's right? When it comes to enjoyment, we all are, which isn't much help.
Same thing goes for value. The 590s are a wonderful value... Is the M2 worth it over the 590? I say "yes", others say "no". And again, we're all correct.
Last edited:
Yes after 2 hours of unpacking and moving them with the help of someone from TaskRabbit.Well? We are all waiting … got those 371s fired up yet?
Then 2 hours of redoing all my cabling. I had a taste last night.
Calibration everything was set to default. Right is nearly perfect. Left has issues. Don’t care to fix that right now. Too busy listening.
The bass is amazing. Just incredible.
I understand now why some people are fans of towers.
It just makes sense. Use of floor space to give these drive units some volume to work with. Audiophile term warning: they just sound “effortless”.
Keep in mind the w371 has less power than the 8361. It’s the volume that makes them so (audiophile term warning) authoritative. Oops.
Yes I was able to clip them. But just mild blinks of the light at pretty insane levels.
So they do fulfill exactly what I wanted and then some. What I wanted was satisfaction at lower levels. They really do just that. I even have only +2dB on my 0-200Hz bass shelf as opposed to +3dB and they still sound so satisfying.
That song revealed to me something about Genelec Ones.
This system has changed my life. Even the 8341 did. This level of the system some little bit more. But the bulk of it is found even in the tiny 8331.
Having said that and really I cannot praise this enough to show my respect to the engineers who made this happen in the real world, there is one thing I have to mention.
That song during Lizzy’s vocal is what caused my 8361s to flash orange lights.
Before I had limits on both mids and bass. The w371 resolves all bass issues. Leaving the mids to be the limit.
Probably i’m listening at ridiculous levels but those sweet vocals on these cannot be loud enough for me.
I’ll just sit closer. Problem solved.
I could write a pamphlet here but please excuse me while I go back to listening to them.
.- Thread Starter
- #751
I-tech
It has 400W per woofer when the 8361A has 350W. Also the woofers are many times larger so they're more efficient, that's really where the far higher SPL comes from.
I don't think people entirely get how insane the W371A is. It is much more powerful than any 3x8" ior 4x6.5" HiFi floorstander like the Revel Salon 2/Kef Reference 5. Only the biggest main monitors and a few extreme compression driver HT speakers exceed it.
Last edited:
- Thread Starter
- #754
Really? 371 more SPL than Salon 2? Have you heard them both under same conditions, with the Salon being driven by appropriate amplification? Can you show the measurements that support this statement? Not being snarky here at all, a genuine knowledge seeking question
Really? 371 more SPL than Salon 2? Have you heard them both under same conditions, with the Salon being driven by appropriate amplification? Can you show the measurements that support this statement? Not being snarky here at all, a genuine knowledge seeking question
In the context of "big floorstanding speakers" the Salon 2 is not really that powerful. It only has 3x 8" woofers, the sensitivity is a very modest 86.4dB anechoic. If you put 1000W into it, of course it will play quite loud. But it's behind something like the JBL M2 with a sensitivity of 92dB and a 15" woofer. Let alone the big main monitors with 2x15" or 2x18" woofers, or of course horn speakers.
The W371A has a 14" and a 12" woofer. Just doing a naive "area of a circle" calculation, a 14" woofer = 3 x 8". In reality it's more because the surround/frame takes up a smaller percentage of the driver as they get bigger. A 12" woofer has more than the area of 2x8". The W371A is something like adding 5-6 8" woofers to the 8361A(which already has a ~10" woofer!) There is a crossover, so it will be shouldering some of the load. We don't have detailed measurements of the W371A's output so it's impossible to be precise. But the "pink noise continuous" spec is 123dB, which is the same as the listed peak output of the JBL M2.
On the downside, the W371A definitely wastes a lot of power in the continued directivity and null steering modes to create the nulls. But in complementary mode it wouldn't waste much.
Vacceo
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2022
- Messages
- 2,687
- Likes
- 2,838
This reinforces my notion that once you go megabucks on competent speakers, the differences start to really get narrow.There isn't a whole lot of evidence that's true unless you're making unreasonable comparisons. Here's the Kef Reference 1 vs the Perlisten S4B. The Kef actually performs better here, and the only reason the Perlisten "appears" to have a low bass advantage is because it's not trying to play bass at all, it slopes it off super quickly. With a sub, the Kef seems like the better dynamic performer to me.
If you compare the Perlisten S4B to the LS50 or something like that, then yeah.... it's going to win lol. But right now you can buy freakin' Kef R11s for less than the price of the R4Bs...
I would say it's true Perlisten offers better dynamic capacity IF you have infinite money AND you have space constraints. But um, in that case, I would just buy Neumann KH150s and spend my huge pile of saved money on drugs or something.
For listening spaces that are not massive, the final result may not be that different.
Hi
I have/had plans to get in the future an end-game audio and video system. These plans keep on getting delayed. This has been for the best. I came to understand that the integration of an Audio system in a room, is not "Slam! Bang! You're-done". It takes time, lot of time, read, more than 6 months, im y case a boit over 3 years. I listen to music constantly, BTW, at least 2 hours a day, sometime 4 hours, 2 movies per week and the eventual great series (The Expanse, Andor and, yes, despite not being a good series Echo 3... many others... Yet my system has improved by addressing issues, and there were/are many. I use REW, MSO and Audyssey for my system.. Let's call Audyssey my main DRC. I even tried a good but unfortunately half-baked and unfinished program call Ratbudyssey... THe best my system came to be was when I begrudgingly acquire the Audyssey MultiEQ-X Windows App. A game changer. A subject for a different thread.
ALl that to say that I no longer believe in auditions as the determinant, notice the "I" in the sentence, others may differ. Speakers take time to integrate in a room and audistions of different speakers in the same room may not bring the best in each speakers in that particular room... IN fact when optimized, I have noticed speakers to sound similar... in many regions of the audio spectrum, which has induced in time a reluctance to move to speakers costing more than my entire audio system...
Another thing. Optimizing a system requires more knowledge than most of us posses. Many underestimate what it takes to optimize a speaker in a room. I know I did. Optimization requires a lot of knowledge, patience and time... Fortunately ASR has those people and they are generous with their time and knowledge.
Which brings me to @MKR opening post:
Here is his list:
The overstrikes are mine. I don't know the Perlisten, Nor do I believe the 8C to be at their best in a very large room , same for the Revel f 228Be and have my slight prejudices against the Kaya 45 And this is in some ways, a repeat of some of my posts, perhaps of my first reply. Any of these speakers in most rooms short of a small theater capable of hosting 20 people, and even then, shall bring immense enjoyment/Accurate sound reproduction when fully optimized. Any of the speakers on this list.
I also tend to believe that the Genelec 8351/W371B and the Neuman KH420 +Subs can play the loudest and the most linear. I tend to think the Genelec will be the most apt to integrate to a room because of the W371 and as someone has noted, the W371 is a formidable, I would add uncommon woofer system, capable of output that no sane person can tolerate in most rooms even large ones , within its passband (23 to 500 Hz). IDK about Neumann subwoofers. I am also a little biased toward Neumann but in this case the Genelec would have been my choice because of the drop-in dimension of the W371.
Parting shot...For my own money I'd go with one of the active speakers system. I'd acquire one of them, any of them looking to balance appearance/aesthetics and cost and ... buy the pair , then return to this thread after having spent weeks of optimization or perhaps simply open a new thread on optimizing the speakers.
Peace
I have/had plans to get in the future an end-game audio and video system. These plans keep on getting delayed. This has been for the best. I came to understand that the integration of an Audio system in a room, is not "Slam! Bang! You're-done". It takes time, lot of time, read, more than 6 months, im y case a boit over 3 years. I listen to music constantly, BTW, at least 2 hours a day, sometime 4 hours, 2 movies per week and the eventual great series (The Expanse, Andor and, yes, despite not being a good series Echo 3... many others... Yet my system has improved by addressing issues, and there were/are many. I use REW, MSO and Audyssey for my system.. Let's call Audyssey my main DRC. I even tried a good but unfortunately half-baked and unfinished program call Ratbudyssey... THe best my system came to be was when I begrudgingly acquire the Audyssey MultiEQ-X Windows App. A game changer. A subject for a different thread.
ALl that to say that I no longer believe in auditions as the determinant, notice the "I" in the sentence, others may differ. Speakers take time to integrate in a room and audistions of different speakers in the same room may not bring the best in each speakers in that particular room... IN fact when optimized, I have noticed speakers to sound similar... in many regions of the audio spectrum, which has induced in time a reluctance to move to speakers costing more than my entire audio system...
Another thing. Optimizing a system requires more knowledge than most of us posses. Many underestimate what it takes to optimize a speaker in a room. I know I did. Optimization requires a lot of knowledge, patience and time... Fortunately ASR has those people and they are generous with their time and knowledge.
Which brings me to @MKR opening post:
Here is his list:
The overstrikes are mine. I don't know the Perlisten, Nor do I believe the 8C to be at their best in a very large room , same for the Revel f 228Be and have my slight prejudices against the Kaya 45
And this is in some ways, a repeat of some of my posts, perhaps of my first reply. Any of these speakers in most rooms short of a small theater capable of hosting 20 people, and even then, shall bring immense enjoyment/Accurate sound reproduction when fully optimized. Any of the speakers on this list.I also tend to believe that the Genelec 8351/W371B and the Neuman KH420 +Subs can play the loudest and the most linear. I tend to think the Genelec will be the most apt to integrate to a room because of the W371 and as someone has noted, the W371 is a formidable, I would add uncommon woofer system, capable of output that no sane person can tolerate in most rooms even large ones , within its passband (23 to 500 Hz). IDK about Neumann subwoofers. I am also a little biased toward Neumann but in this case the Genelec would have been my choice because of the drop-in dimension of the W371.
Parting shot...For my own money I'd go with one of the active speakers system. I'd acquire one of them, any of them looking to balance appearance/aesthetics and cost and ... buy the pair , then return to this thread after having spent weeks of optimization or perhaps simply open a new thread on optimizing the speakers.
Peace
- Thread Starter
- #758
@FrantzM Thanks for the comments, I fully concurHi
I have/had plans to get in the future an end-game audio and video system. These plans keep on getting delayed. This has been for the best. I came to understand that the integration of an Audio system in a room, is not "Slam! Bang! You're-done". It takes time, lot of time, read, more than 6 months, im y case a boit over 3 years. I listen to music constantly, BTW, at least 2 hours a day, sometime 4 hours, 2 movies per week and the eventual great series (The Expanse, Andor and, yes, despite not being a good series Echo 3... many others... Yet my system has improved by addressing issues, and there were/are many. I use REW, MSO and Audyssey for my system.. Let's call Audyssey my main DRC. I even tried a good but unfortunately half-baked and unfinished program call Ratbudyssey... THe best my system came to be was when I begrudgingly acquire the Audyssey MultiEQ-X Windows App. A game changer. A subject for a different thread.
ALl that to say that I no longer believe in auditions as the determinant, notice the "I" in the sentence, others may differ. Speakers take time to integrate in a room and audistions of different speakers in the same room may not bring the best in each speakers in that particular room... IN fact when optimized, I have noticed speakers to sound similar... in many regions of the audio spectrum, which has induced in time a reluctance to move to speakers costing more than my entire audio system...
Another thing. Optimizing a system requires more knowledge than most of us posses. Many underestimate what it takes to optimize a speaker in a room. I know I did. Optimization requires a lot of knowledge, patience and time... Fortunately ASR has those people and they are generous with their time and knowledge.
Which brings me to @MKR opening post:
Here is his list:
The overstrikes are mine. I don't know the Perlisten, Nor do I believe the 8C to be at their best in a very large room , same for the Revel f 228Be and have my slight prejudices against the Kaya 45
I also tend to believe that the Genelec 8351/W371B and the Neuman KH420 +Subs can play the loudest and the most linear. I tend to think the Genelec will be the most apt to integrate to a room because of the W371 and as someone has noted, the W371 is a formidable, I would add uncommon woofer system, capable of output that no sane person can tolerate in most rooms even large ones , within its passband (23 to 500 Hz). IDK about Neumann subwoofers. I am also a little biased toward Neumann but in this case the Genelec would have been my choice because of the drop-in dimension of the W371.
Parting shot...For my own money I'd go with one of the active speakers system. I'd acquire one of them, any of them looking to balance appearance/aesthetics and cost and ... buy the pair , then return to this thread after having spent weeks of optimization or perhaps simply open a new thread on optimizing the speakers.
Peace
… for certain the Genelec combo is #1 on my active short list. Maybe the GGNTKT M3 has a chance to better it, but as of today it is mostly vaporware as far as I know.Note the short list has evolved (multiple times since my first post), latest is below (note I removed the 8C and Kii for the same reasons you cited, output limitations for large listening spaces) …
Revel Salon 2
Genelec 8361A + W371A
Kef Blade One/Two Meta
KEF Reference 5 Meta
Revel Performa F328Be
Salk BePure3
JBL M2
JBL S9900
JBL 4367
JBL S3900
JBL S4700
Vivid Audio Kaya 90
Illusio Audio Alana
Alta Audio Hestia 2
Tom Danley Signature (not yet released)
GGNTKT M3 (not yet released)
O Audio Verdande (not yet released)
- Thread Starter
- #759
Thanks, fair enough … And of course you are correct on the basic physics (driver area), but I think it is more complex than this. Though without measurements of both it is all just guessing (albeit educated guessing). Also, the Genelec combo is running with a total of 1150W, yet you seem to be stating that it is a negative to drive the Salons with 1000W to achieve similar output levels.
Not attempting to “defend” the Salons, I am agnostic at this point and still on the hunt for my end game, with both solutions still on my short list, just want to be sure we are being objective here.
Hi
I am not sure any of these speakers by their lone selves can match the bass output of the 8361 + W371A combo. In room or anechoic.
Also the W371A can manipulate their output and pattern/directivity, to cope with room modes. This can be accomplished with multiple subwoofers of course, with some degree of complexity an will take some amount of real estate ...
It seems that the Genelec combos click all the right buttons IMO, IME.
Good luck...
Peace.
In passing, save for the JBL M2, 4367 and the Danley Signature, I am not sure any of those speakers, yes, including the Salon 2would keep up in term of SPL with the Genelec 8361 + W371.@FrantzM Thanks for the comments, I fully concur
Note the short list has evolved (multiple times since my first post), latest is below (note I removed the 8C and Kii for the same reasons you cited, output limitations for large listening spaces) …
Revel Salon 2
Genelec 8361A + W371A
Kef Blade One/Two Meta
KEF Reference 5 Meta
Revel Performa F328Be
Salk BePure3
JBL M2
JBL S9900
JBL 4367
JBL S3900
JBL S4700
Vivid Audio Kaya 90
Illusio Audio Alana
Alta Audio Hestia 2
Tom Danley Signature (not yet released)
GGNTKT M3 (not yet released)
O Audio Verdande (not yet released)
I am not sure any of these speakers by their lone selves can match the bass output of the 8361 + W371A combo. In room or anechoic.
Also the W371A can manipulate their output and pattern/directivity, to cope with room modes. This can be accomplished with multiple subwoofers of course, with some degree of complexity an will take some amount of real estate ...
It seems that the Genelec combos click all the right buttons IMO, IME
. Good luck...
Peace.
- Status
