$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[Emlin]

I’d much rather have on of those than a stupid watch. Unless I won the watch.

Totally off topic. Start your own thread if you want, but don't pollute this one.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Totally off topic. Start your own thread if you want, but don't pollute this one.

I agree with your sentiments... but you have to admit the SN ratio on this thread has been way above average.

 

[kemmler3D]

I've been leaning to the side of constant directivity all the way down to Schroeder could be the optimal, but perhaps a frequency dependent mix of dispersion could provide the best in-room results?
For me this is the most interesting area in audio reproduction and the one area where it's still up in the air where nobody really knows much.

Based on what I've seen people saying over the past couple years about different speaker systems, my guess is that you may find a general preference for more directivity, or directivity of certain frequencies, but this is one area of loudspeaker design that I think is more of a matter of opinion.

My opinion is based on the fact that I've seen a distinct split between two camps when it comes to "realistic soundstage".

There are folks who want "you are there", immersive-type sound, and there are folks who want "they are here", accurate, pinpoint-able type soundstages. Without getting into a whole matrixed discussion of room size and liveliness on top of that, these generally indicate either dipole / omni or extremely wide dispersion, or controlled dispersion, respectively.

I think it may have been Geddes and Toole who notably couldn't come to an agreement on this, I doubt the rest of us have much hope of bridging the gap. If it's a matter of taste, there can't be any single best solution.

 

[Emlin]

Based on what I've seen people saying over the past couple years about different speaker systems, my guess is that you may find a general preference for more directivity, or directivity of certain frequencies, but this is one area of loudspeaker design that I think is more of a matter of opinion.

My opinion is based on the fact that I've seen a distinct split between two camps when it comes to "realistic soundstage".

There are folks who want "you are there", immersive-type sound, and there are folks who want "they are here", accurate, pinpoint-able type soundstages. Without getting into a whole matrixed discussion of room size and liveliness on top of that, these generally indicate either dipole / omni or extremely wide dispersion, or controlled dispersion, respectively.

I think it may have been Geddes and Toole who notably couldn't come to an agreement on this, I doubt the rest of us have much hope of bridging the gap. If it's a matter of taste, there can't be any single best solution.

It's not a matter of taste. It's rather a matter of circumstance. In normal domestic circumstances, it is hard to stop the room's acoustic dominating that of the recording.

But with cardioid and other advances in DSP, that is changing. All good, I think.

 

[Mr. Widget]

It's not a matter of taste. It's rather a matter of circumstance. In normal domestic circumstances, it is hard to stop the room's acoustic dominating those of the recording.

But with cardioid and other advances in DSP, that is changing. All good, I think.

You don't think that some people prefer an audiophile pinpoint imaging experience and others prefer a more diffuse sound that in many ways more closely resembles a live musical experience?

I personally go back and forth and can enjoy both, but I know people who jump through crazy hoops to get that holographic sound and others who find it artificial.

 

[Emlin]

You don't think that some people prefer an audiophile pinpoint imaging experience and others prefer a more diffuse sound that in many ways more closely resembles a live musical experience?

I personally go back and forth and can enjoy both, but I know people who jump through crazy hoops to get that holographic sound and others who find it artificial.

Few have the chance to experience both at home. So they won't know which they prefer. And please keep audiophiles out of this.

 

[tjcinnamon]

Yeah too many factors honestly. Like if your room is bad then you may want narrow dispersion. That’s the entire impetus behind audiophiles going for studio monitors.

I don’t really have any reference as I don’t go to cinemas. What I mean by produced music is pretty much everything that is mixed down from multi mic/multi track.

I figure the best perspective is from that mixing seat. Others may not agree. Other may have other needs. It’s always a compromise.

In reality if we could have 2-3 to end systems in the same room or even multiple setups I bet one would be a jazz room another a classical room and another an electronic music room. Each would have different end game speakers. The jazz and classical room might have BACCH-SP loaded

We just pick the best compromise I guess.

If you like BACCH-SP then the Polk L800’s are a perfect speaker. They go nuts on Binaural recordings. The Stereo Dimensional Array setup is what makes them unique

I always thought I’d go Revel or Salk Sound but ended up with these guys despite my audiophile cred being destroyed by the consumer brand name. So worth it!

 

[benanders]

Few have the chance to experience both at home. So they won't know which they prefer. And please keep audiophiles out of this.

In some ways this seems an oversimplification, but in some ways, spot-on.

Omni / dipole approach, which my speakers seem to emulate (if only in their contrast to the pinpoint imaging camp), is not heavily marketed in my neck of the woods.
I’ve had multiple audiophiles over to listen, who’ve never experienced an omni / dipole form of in-home music reproduction. Admittedly, the typical reaction has been one of heavy mental [re]processing
Without a tendency for bias in favor of pinpoint imagery as the path for ideal in-home music reproduction, I’m not sure which would be more popular. Simply no way to control for that, if folks have heard it only one way most of their lives.

So much for keeping audiophiles out of this. My bad…

 

[kemmler3D]

It's not a matter of taste. It's rather a matter of circumstance. In normal domestic circumstances, it is hard to stop the room's acoustic dominating that of the recording.

But with cardioid and other advances in DSP, that is changing. All good, I think.

Well, it's a matter of taste because there are people who don't WANT the room's acoustics to be minimized. Some want a lot of reflected sound because it produces a certain illusion, others want limited or very low reflected sound because it produces another, different type of illusion. Neither is wrong but they still don't agree with each other.

 

[benanders]

@srrxr71 these were good points, so having a bit more time now responding with more than a 3-word-gif:

I figure the best perspective is from that mixing seat. Others may not agree. Other may have other needs. It’s always a compromise.

I suspect most music for home stereo aims for best imaging, kind of the point (pun!) of consumer stereo. So in-home attempts at presenting those recordings as more uniform / diffuse should, hypothetically, be inherently challenged by virtue of consumer stereo’s design.

Folks like this thread’s OP, who prefer pinpoint imagery to a more uniform / diffuse presentation and who can treat their playback rooms to suit, are strategically ahead from the get-go based on available speaker models and what the majority of stereo music is mixed and mastered to achieve. There’s no “wrong” personal preference in this hobby, but surely some are more advantageous!

In reality if we could have 2-3 to end systems in the same room or even multiple setups I bet one would be a jazz room another a classical room and another an electronic music room. Each would have different end game speakers. The jazz and classical room might have BACCH-SP loaded

We just pick the best compromise I guess.

Parallel systems for that are not uncommon.
I’ve suggested to local audiophile friends: hunt for different-sounding XLR cables speakers and cycle through them as they see fit. Many folks in my area don’t have space for floorstanders, instead going the desktop or bookshelf route, which makes that approach feasible. But it still reminds me of an old SNL skit where Will Ferrell played a guy who uses 7 different shampoos for the 7 different kinds of hair on his body…

One individual near me uses a custom pair of LA’s very similar to mine, for everything. And he cycles through over a dozen high end SS amplifiers for his variety.
I also do it that way, preferring the simplicity of one “best” speaker, but minus all the amplifiers!

 

[MKR]

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Thanks but no thanks … see my listening impressions of the Kiis earlier in this thread

 

[MKR]

I am away for just 24hrs and y’all start talking about watches and cars … I guess I better start posting more interesting material and more often, y’all are getting bored LOL

 

[Purité Audio]

Thanks but no thanks … see my listening impressions of the Kiis earlier in this thread

Interesting I was fortunate enough to compare the Salon2s against my Kii/BXT in the same room, my conclusion entirely different.
Try and hear the possibles head to head in your own room, it really is the only valid comparison.
Keith

 

[MKR]

Given so many posts and maybe lost in the “chaos”, and for everyone’s reference, the latest short list below …

KEF Blade One/Two Meta *
KEF Reference 5 Meta *
JBL 4367, S3900, S4700, M2 *
Legacy Aeris *
Revel Salon 2 **
Zellaton Plural Evo **
Acora SRC-2 **

* Not yet auditioned
** Auditioned but will do so again on next trip

Genelecs dropped given the recent bummer situation experienced by @srrxr71 (no way I will drop that kind of change on a system where the manufacturer provides such terrible and fully unacceptable support). Plus, comments again from @srrxr71 on the narrow sweet spot. That will absolutely not suffice for my application or preferences. If I ever get a chance to hear them will of course do so, and will happily report my impressions, but will not seek them out on this next audition trip.

I am sure you will notice the addition of the Zellatons … These were stunning speakers, one of the few I have auditioned to date that gave the Salon 2s a serious challenge, and maybe did some things better. But, WELL over my budget. However, I may be able to work something out on that aspect, so on the list they go. Similar comment on the Acoras.

KEFs staying as I want to give these a fair shot (previously considered dropping due to my experience with the KEF Ref 1, but extending that experience all the way to the Ref 5 or Blades not logical).

As to the Legacy Aeris, I really enjoyed the Focus SE and while not the equal of the Salon 2 in some ways, they really were very, very good, subjectively of course. So my thought was if I step up the line, which is the Aeris, maybe we are talking a serious contender here. Turns out the Zellaton dealer is also the Legacy dealer, and he will have a brand new pair of Aeris available for my next audition trip, so perfect situation. One issue with Legacy is no spinoramas. I actually contacted Legacy directly to obtain some FR data and definitely got the run around . Measurements aren’t everything, but they are very important to me and when a manufacturer behaves in this way I start to think they are hiding something. I didn’t hear anything obviously wrong or missing in my audition of the Focus (except a definite tip down in the highs, so slight loss of detail), but I didn’t spend too much time with them and maybe a longer listen would have uncovered some issues. We shall see.

 

[Purité Audio]

Zellaton, any measurements for any of their speakers anywhere?
Keith

 

[MKR]

Interesting I was fortunate enough to compare the Salon2s against my Kii/BXT in the same room, my conclusion entirely different.
Try and hear the possibles head to head in your own room, it really is the only valid comparison.
Keith

Keith … There is absolutely NO comparison in my subjective experience, it is not a “different or same room” issue. I really have no idea how anyone could come to such a conclusion. And not only the Salon 2s, multiple speakers I auditioned I would rank above the Kiis. And for what it’s worth, even the Kii dealer acknowledged the Kiis, while very very good, and a groundbreaking design in many ways, we’re not the equal to the Salons (for which he also had extensive listening experience). But, clearly you, and many others love the Kiis, and that is great, happy for y’all, they are just not my cup of tea. Not to mention I do not like the active approach and losing control of my choice of components, service issues if something breaks, the extra complexity while used in a home theater application, and also, and I will just say it again … that Kii “control” is just dopey

 

[MKR]

Zellaton, any measurements for any of their speakers anywhere?
Keith

Working on that …

 

[Purité Audio]

Keith … There is absolutely NO comparison in my subjective experience, it is not a “different or same room” issue. I really have no idea how anyone could come to such a conclusion. And not only the Salon 2s, multiple speakers I auditioned I would rank above the Kiis. And for what it’s worth, even the Kii dealer acknowledged the Kiis, while very very good, and a groundbreaking design in many ways, we’re not the equal to the Salons (for which he also had extensive listening experience). But, clearly you, and many others love the Kiis, and that is great, happy for y’all, they are just not my cup of tea. Not to mention I do not like the active approach and losing control of my choice of components, service issues if something breaks, the extra complexity while used in a home theater application, and also, and I will just say it again … that Kii “control” is just dopey

You must take everything dealers say with a pinch of salt!
A dealer I know won’t even mention the Kiis if the customers budget is more than the Kiis, the opportunity to sell more product is just too strong!
Ultimately you must choose what you like, but hearing different systems in different rooms doesn’t really tell you that much, as I mentioned upthread best room/set-up wins.
Keith

 

[Purité Audio]

Working on that …

I have only heard them at Munich, didn’t impress, measurements would be re-assuring .
Keith

 

[MKR]

You must take everything dealers say with a pinch of salt!
A dealer I know won’t even mention the Kiis if the customers budget is more than the Kiis, the opportunity to sell more product is just too strong!
Ultimately you must choose what you like, but hearing different systems in different rooms doesn’t really tell you that much, as I mentioned upthread best room/set-up wins.
Keith

Of course I take it with a grain of salt, I am not naive. And this dealer doesn’t even carry the Revel line, yet he still stated the Salons were a step up from the Kiis. He had everything to lose from such a statement. So not following your logic.

By the way, to be fair, as you are a dealer, especially for Kii, I also take everything you say with a grain of salt