$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[MKR]

I have only heard them at Munich, didn’t impress, measurements would be re-assuring .
Keith

I don’t think any passive speaker could ever possibly impress you … but certainly agree on the measurements being re-assuring

 

[Dismayed]

I personally love martin Logan electrostatic speakers, but there are a few folks here who dislike them. For me, I'd look at the Martin Logan Renaissance 15A. There would even be enough money left over to buy a few cups of coffee.

 

[MKR]

I personally love martin Logan electrostatic speakers, but there are a few folks here who dislike them. For me, I'd look at the Martin Logan Renaissance 15A. There would even be enough money left over to buy a few cups of coffee.

Thanks for the recommend, definitely not a fan of electrostatics. Seems to either be a love or hate thing from my observations all these years. With that said, they certainly do some things very very well, but a bit of a one trick pony in that sense. Anyway, glad you like them but not for me.

 

[MattHooper]

Interesting I was fortunate enough to compare the Salon2s against my Kii/BXT in the same room, my conclusion entirely different.
Try and hear the possibles head to head in your own room, it really is the only valid comparison.
Keith

I'm sure anyone would agree the optimal speaker audition would be in one's own room. But that's just not possible or practical in many if not most cases.
MKR had a wide list of speakers he was interested in hearing. There's no way he'd be able to listen to all those in his room, so seeking them out at a dealer
to audition is the route to go.

And, as I've mentioned before, I disagree that auditioning speakers in your own home (which I have done) or even in the same room/system is necessary for finding a speaker you like. The vast majority of audiophiles manage to make satisfying purchases by auditioning speakers - either hearing them at a dealer, another audiophile's home, or whatever. As Floyd Toole always points out, we are pretty good at "hearing through" the room to the characteristics of a speaker (with caveats). I've found it's quite possible to get the gist of a speaker at dealer show rooms or other places. Most speakers I've had in my home sounded essentially the same as when I heard them elsewhere. So it's still legitimate to go the practical route of auditioning speakers and narrowing the field that way.

Ultimately you only ever know if you can "live" with a speaker or have long term satisfaction is by...living with a speaker long term. But even the best audition scenarios - in your own home, or side by side at a store - won't tell you that for sure. So there's always going to be a level of "rolling the dice."

 

[Purité Audio]

You don’t listen to them all Matt you whittle down to two or three possibles which you compare at home, at this price point it is what dealers should be offering. ( if they aspire to being something other than box-shifters)
Keith

 

[MKR]

I'm sure anyone would agree the optimal speaker audition would be in one's own room. But that's just not possible or practical in many if not most cases.
MKR had a wide list of speakers he was interested in hearing. There's no way he'd be able to listen to all those in his room, so seeking them out at a dealer
to audition is the route to go.

And, as I've mentioned before, I disagree that auditioning speakers in your own home (which I have done) or even in the same room/system is necessary for finding a speaker you like. The vast majority of audiophiles manage to make satisfying purchases by auditioning speakers - either hearing them at a dealer, another audiophile's home, or whatever. As Floyd Toole always points out, we are pretty good at "hearing through" the room to the characteristics of a speaker (with caveats). I've found it's quite possible to get the gist of a speaker at dealer show rooms or other places. Most speakers I've had in my home sounded essentially the same as when I heard them elsewhere. So it's still legitimate to go the practical route of auditioning speakers and narrowing the field that way.

Ultimately you only ever know if you can "live" with a speaker or have long term satisfaction is by...living with a speaker long term. But even the best audition scenarios - in your own home, or side by side at a store - won't tell you that for sure. So there's always going to be a level of "rolling the dice."

My sentiments exactly

 

[MKR]

You don’t listen to them all Matt you whittle down to two or three possibles which you compare at home, at this price point it is what dealers should be offering. ( if they aspire to being something other than box-shifters)
Keith

This is just fully impractical…. Unless you live very close to a dealer (which I don’t!), there is no way any dealer is going to ship you a pair of $30k multi-hundred pound pair of loudspeakers for an in home audition. It is just a huge pain in the buttocks in so many ways. MAYBE if you offered to pay shipping, dealer might consider, but even then they are giving up a demo pair for some length of time, so an opportunity cost for them. Again, if you lived very close to dealer, maybe they would let you take a pair of the behemoths home for a time, but then they risk damage to a very expensive pair of loudspeakers. If I were a dealer, no way I would do this, and I wouldn’t hold it against them for telling me to go pound sand if I made such a request.

Now, for a smallish pair of actives, Kii for example, this becomes more realistic, but for large floorstanders, I would never expect this from a dealer, nor will I ask them. Silliness.

 

[MattHooper]

You don’t listen to them all Matt you whittle down to two or three possibles which you compare at home, at this price point it is what dealers should be offering. ( if they aspire to being something other than box-shifters)
Keith

Sure, but that right there implies that the "whittling down" process (of auditioning) is worthwhile. Which would entail auditioning speakers at a dealer can "tell you much." It can tell you which few speakers you'd likely prefer.

I presume you allow for home auditions, which I think is great!

I've had a few of those. The best was a dealer who let me listen to a pair for several days in my home.
The worst was when a dealer brought over a pair of speakers that I hadn't heard yet (but he was raving up) WITH the speaker designer himself! And then set them up in my room, and the only place for the speaker designer to sit was in a chair between the speakers staring at me, monitoring my reaction. And, it turned out I didn't care for those speakers. That was awkward.

 

[Purité Audio]

This is just fully impractical…. Unless you live very close to a dealer (which I don’t!), there is no way any dealer is going to ship you a pair of $30k multi-hundred pound pair of loudspeakers for an in home audition. It is just a huge pain in the buttocks in so many ways. MAYBE if you offered to pay shipping, dealer might consider, but even then they are giving up a demo pair for some length of time, so an opportunity cost for them. Again, if you lived very close to dealer, maybe they would let you take a pair of the behemoths home for a time, but then they risk damage to a very expensive pair of loudspeakers. If I were a dealer, no way I would do this, and I wouldn’t hold it against them for telling me to go pound sand if I made such a request.

Now, for a smallish pair of actives, Kii for example, this becomes more realistic, but for large floorstanders, I would never expect this from a dealer, nor will I ask them. Silliness.

$30k for a pair of speakers with no form of built in adjustment ,I would want to hear them in my room, the dealer could charge a fee and deduct that from the purchase price.
Obviously dealers would prefer to make only one trip to your place, I believe ‘we’ have to add some value, otherwise the manufacturer might as well ( and many will) sell direct.
Keith

 

[GXAlan]

I always thought I’d go Revel or Salk Sound but ended up with these guys despite my audiophile cred being destroyed by the consumer brand name. So worth it!

Without a tendency for bias in favor of pinpoint imagery as the path for ideal in-home music reproduction, I’m not sure which would be more popular. Simply no way to control for that, if folks have heard it only one way most of their lives.

I agree wholeheartedly and admittedly have the luxury of multiple audio systems.

It’s well established that stereo reduces discrimination from a mono preference score.

It’s well established that customers like buying a stereo pair of speakers over listening in mono.

It’s well established that Harman does use stereo listening in their R&D though they may not publish it and that present-day Harman does less academic papers.

1) The Polk L800 is taking a classic idea proven in the marketplace and advancing it to modern transducers. Given its price point, I doubt the distortion measurements or spin will be as good as a Revel Salon2. However, in stereo, I would expect the L800 to perform far better than expected due to its unique technology. Stated another way, the single channel differences between a L800 and L600 will likely be smaller than the differences between stereo comparisons.

2) Magnepan speakers remain popular despite the logistical hurdles and the poor measurements, since a stereo pair actually translates into great music. It’s also possible that the inherent dynamic range limitations also gives it a more vinyl-like sound.

3) I keep sticking with my JBL S/2600 even though it has very clear weaknesses from its age including limited high frequency — but the asymmetrical horns gives me a better off-center stereo image, which works for my large sofa where multiple people may be listening at the same time.

There should be a lot of wrongness from the inconsistent frequency dispersion but it still sounds better overall.

 

[MKR]

$30k for a pair of speakers with no form of built in adjustment ,I would want to hear them in my room, the dealer could charge a fee and deduct that from the purchase price.
Obviously dealers would prefer to make only one trip to your place, I believe ‘we’ have to add some value, otherwise the manufacturer might as well ( and many will) sell direct.
Keith

No form of built in adjustment? Ugh. Once again Keith, actives not the only way to skin the cat. And note the Salon 2s do have built in adjustment, as an example, albeit very minimal. Plus there is this cool thing called EQ that you can implement in many different and cost effective ways these days with passive speakers

And again, such a scenario may be possible for folks that live close to said dealer, but I do not. My closest dealer that carries products I am interested in is ~16 hr drive from me! Would you deliver a pair of massive floorstanders to a customer that was a 16hr drive from you? If yes, well, then you are indeed a rare fella (I mean that in a very positive way )

 

[Purité Audio]

16 hours!
That is a drive!
Keith

 

[MKR]

16 hours!
That is a drive!
Keith

Welcome to the USA! Spending a lot of time in EU and interacting there with many colleagues and friends, they are always shocked at the distances us Americans typically drive. A 12 hour drive is really no issue for me, fully used to this, above that starts to get a bit rough even for me

 

[Mr. Widget]

You must take everything dealers say with a pinch of salt!

Unfortunately the maxim, "caveat emptor" is very true.

A dealer I know won’t even mention the Kiis if the customers budget is more than the Kiis, the opportunity to sell more product is just too strong!

There is a local dealer who can sell snow to Alaskans. I knew he was a crook by reputation and still almost went to work for him after a lunch... he is that good.

There are crooks and charlatans in every field.

 

[Lsc]

This is just fully impractical…. Unless you live very close to a dealer (which I don’t!), there is no way any dealer is going to ship you a pair of $30k multi-hundred pound pair of loudspeakers for an in home audition. It is just a huge pain in the buttocks in so many ways. MAYBE if you offered to pay shipping, dealer might consider, but even then they are giving up a demo pair for some length of time, so an opportunity cost for them. Again, if you lived very close to dealer, maybe they would let you take a pair of the behemoths home for a time, but then they risk damage to a very expensive pair of loudspeakers. If I were a dealer, no way I would do this, and I wouldn’t hold it against them for telling me to go pound sand if I made such a request.

Now, for a smallish pair of actives, Kii for example, this becomes more realistic, but for large floorstanders, I would never expect this from a dealer, nor will I ask them. Silliness.

It definitely is not practical plus I don’t really think this in home audition is really necessary especially with speakers.

When I bought the F208, I listened to the F206, B&W competitor around the same price range, Parasound, GoldenEar whatever audio etc. Bringing those speakers home would not have changed my mind. Large variations in speakers vs other components. Now yes, if I’m buying a new preamp, I’d love to do an in home to see if
It makes a difference to what I currently have.

All this horn talk got me to bring out my old vintage Klipsch Forte IIs. It still has that dynamic pop and is mostly listenable but so rough around the edges compared to the salon2. Still fun speakers!

Honestly the salon2 may be the ones to get for you based on everything you have said so far. Welcome to the club! (In advance )

 

[Lsc]

Well that lasted 2 songs. While not as dynamic, the salon2 is so much more enjoyable to listen to. It may be time for me to sell these OG Forte II that I’ve owned for 30 years as my ears are not bleeding but in a bit of pain . Revels are so much smoother.

 

[GXAlan]

Well that lasted 2 songs. While not as dynamic, the salon2 is so much more enjoyable to listen to. It may be time for me to sell these OG Forte II that I’ve owned for 30 years as my ears are not bleeding but in a bit of pain . Revels are so much smoother.

The first question is how do you think modern horns would sound to you?

The second question: do you have a home office or study that might benefit from a second audio system?

 

[FlyingFreak]

Once again Keith, actives not the only way to skin the cat.

This how I skin the cat, always active. How do you do it?

I can see myself out.

 

[MKR]

This how I skin the cat, always active. How do you do it?
View attachment 262318

I can see myself out.

LOL … well played sir, well played

 

[MKR]

Well that lasted 2 songs. While not as dynamic, the salon2 is so much more enjoyable to listen to. It may be time for me to sell these OG Forte II that I’ve owned for 30 years as my ears are not bleeding but in a bit of pain . Revels are so much smoother.

Not to offend your Fortes, but those are a literal broken design … every time I hear Klipsch, from the bottom of their lineup to the top, my ears literally detach from my skull and run away … listen to a well engineered compression/horn design and I strongly suspect you would have a very different opinion. My very modest JBL Studio 590s are anything but ear bleeders