Heyya
@srrxr71
You’re typing “peace of mind” but I think you’re trying to convey something other than what I meant by the phrase.
I don’t feel anyone in this thread, myself included, passed judgement on how much is spent on speakers - the thread title serves as a pretty good filter for that. What I stated is that by a certain price threshold (and for me, certainly by 5-figs) the speakers better sound
just as the listener wants, no less and surely not to be chalked up as “just” speakers (note how JUST can mean such different things; English as the nuisance always…). Same as hobby cars, indeed. Those kinds of prices mean, as you suggest, maximum return is warranted. I don’t think we are in disagreement here, more an issue of semantics.
In speakers, I’d say we are buying fun. The more peace of mind we enable when we buy fun, the more that fun can persist through time without our (potential) psychological bargaining getting in its way
I’m not sure I’m following your meaning of “peace of mind” above.
That’s a scenario where you opted to surrender exactly what I mean by “peace of mind” in making a purchase. Did you listen to the designer’s speakers before purchase? Do some true A/B comparisons? “No” to either query would be further reduction of peace of mind.
Perhaps in part because those speakers were bought without much (any?) peace of mind. There was a pressure factor in your purchase, as there is now with
@MKR Salon2’s.
Like it or not, that gives firsthand experience - sampling subjectively, in person - not eyeballing charts (also often subjective) or “having” impressions concatenated from reading the words of online strangers (i.e., expectations). Real-world experience (auditioning) can give a buyer peace of mind ahead of purchase. Lack of it potentially sacrifices peace of mind. Whether that manifests an issue for listening post-purchase would depend on a number of physical and psychological factors hard to tease apart.
To reiterate, while I don’t want to delve into the metaphysics of justifying/countering particular speaker purchases on ASR (after all, psychology is often mocked as a “soft science” at best, ha!), speakers are bought by listeners for fun. Peace of mind, I think not so much. Like almost anything else “hobby” with moving parts, yes?
You mentioned getting a new speaker/speakers from a line with which you’re already familiar, Genelec is it?
And you’re sure they’ll be great?
Only peace of mind earned by prior experience should give someone that level of confidence, and I’m glad for you that it’s enhancing your…
fun!
Hi benanders!
On your first point we certainly do not disagree. Having heard what is possible today the biggest issue imho is that you will be wasting some years with something you don’t absolutely love. That’s what happened to me.
I feel like at this level it’s beyond fun. Of course it’s fun. It’s also spiritual recharge. Music has been a part of every culture of every people on earth.
However for us - who definitely have a “need” for perfection - and I almost dislike to admit it - there is some external validation component. One easy one is perhaps “top 5 speakers as measured on ASR”.
In some sense this entire thread beyond being a chronicle of “first world problems” is also about external validation at least of the selection methodology.
So I suppose that ties into “peace of mind”.
This could be different for each individual. For me it’s simply I know the best studios on earth are making music on something comparable (especially with the Trinnov piece) to what I desire.
For another individual it could be:
“I went to LA spent 3 days and auditioned 6 different top systems of the world and I heard the differences and compromises of each and this one fits me like a glove”
In the case of my previous situation I bought the speakers directly from the designer after a local auction. They were amazing in the store. Pretty decent in my residence at the time. They were big expensive and made by a well renowned designer and I suppose I had to hype myself up with that thought process when I listened because they were not mind blowing at home as they were at the store.
After some years instead of just selling them I called the factory and got his son. His son offered me a trade in. I just took it. The guy designs good speakers with a following. I took the easy path.
I’d say even in 2012 the “audiophile” world was a mess. Every dealer has their showcase system with everything set up perfectly and the perfect music for that system. What can you do?
Either you could go to every hi-fi dealer in town and audition their lines knowing that none of it is going to sound the same at home or you could read reviews and get on some bandwagon of some sort.
I went against my judgment because at that point in my journey I was all about active designs. Because they take so many factors out of the equation. Sometimes you don’t want to be “master of your destiny” because you’re not on engineer and even if you are you did not engineer the speaker. At best you can buy the same amp the designer used to design and test the speaker. That was my thought process after about 15 years in the hobby (including teenage years as broke magazine reader).
Still I bought those passives because I had that trade in offer.
I also bought - keeping in line with my personal conclusion about actives and value - a pair studio monitors. They actually were a lot better. I just had to sit at a desk. Now they were “better” mostly due to ratio of direct/reflected sound facilitated by sitting close. Even in a midfield position, while not as pure, seemed to involve quite a bit less brain power to get a nice solid image from the soundstage than my huge floor standing passives.
So the floor standing passives were my main entertainment speakers and they did well. They played loud. Brought me much satisfaction but I had no idea is they were better than anything else just that the designer is well known in some circles.
Something purchased like this can’t be end game for you. Because it’s purchased in a vacuum in a sense. It was a much smaller budget so I sort of took the lazy path there.
I should have just sold the original speakers and developed my Focal system with subs and developed a system around those as my primary system and forgone the bedroom system. That would have been money much better spent in my case.
This was all complicated by the fact that those days it was not easy to integrate powered monitors into a home A/V system - even just plain stereo. We did not have all the nice products we have today.
In fact my current system is only possible thanks to the Bluesound Node with its HDMI to coax ability and that product came out only last year. For the passives I had a NAD integrated which was one of the first to have HDMI. But you could not use powered monitors with that setup.
So that’s a huge part of why I justified trading in my old passives for new ones. But I knew deep down that for me - at least mentally - actives were my holy grail. So I kept off my true path due to convenience and flexibility factors.
Fast forward to today and I have confirmed that for me active monitors are my holy grail.
I started with LS50W and loved them but whether I heard anything or not the very thought of IMD and “darn my mid range driver is moving like crazy - does that make sense?” Was what mentally devalued those otherwise excellent speakers in my mind.
So I had in my mind what I knew would solve that problem. A 3-way coaxial design. Add to that Amir’s reviews here. Nearly perfect objective measurements. Some subjective impressions also. That was enough to push the “order” button.
Prior to delivery I had a chance to audition by sheer luck. That day I knew I made the right choice. What I heard was magic on a level I had never before experienced on this journey.
All factors were satisfied.
My internal mental need for active design. Point source - which sitting close to the Focals taught me about very well, also from owning a pair of 8010 - both of those taught me about what happens if you sit close and move your head - everything shifts. You have only one ideal position for your head.
External factors such as the nearly perfect measurements as found here. The fact that a good amount of music is made and checked on these or something like these.
Then the final internal factor: the audition. That was end of the story for me. Done deal.
Then getting them home. So I know how this line sounds in my own space. Incredible!
Whether you have $6k or $28k they sound the same just depends on the space you need to fill. So I loved the sound of the $6k ones and when I moved into a bigger space - the only reason for which was to listen to my music louder - then it was obvious to just upscale what I already love. What already sorts out all my logical and psychological factors.
Yeah I can’t tell you how happy I am to find this place. For me it is literally aural heaven. If there is something better I really don’t care. It could be better in one aspect perhaps at the cost of something else.
For me this is it. With or without Trinnov amazing.
The impetus to add a Trinnov comes from both internal factors like reading over what it does. External factors such as reading people’s impressions of it. The fact again that many folks who make your music use it.
However I have not heard it. But I have no qualms about getting it and “knowing” that it will be the final icing on the cake in my journey.
Finally I can get off this site and listen to music
There is no better end goal.
Btw as an aside and everyone will take this as they will. If you look at the “W371 Holy Grail” thread. It is a rare thread in this site where the poster actually posts his music. That’s what this system inspires you to do. You stop thinking in terms of equipment and soundstage, dispersion etc blah blah and you start thinking in terms of the music. The vocals, guitars, drums. It’s incredible.
That’s my definition of end game. You can try it for $6k or $28k. Which is what I love about it. You pay more to scale up SPL. All other differences are minor until you add the woofer system which cleans up the mids and speeds up the bass.
Yes the woofer system does buy peace of mind. Because once you get it and calibrate it to will hopefully fix some issues which even 45 acoustic panels can not fix in here. When it comes to mitigating room effects it’s top 3 in world. Constant directivity down to 60Hz? That’s insanity. Magic. You even get a report which you can compare results with actual studios. Then as I will see later today you get a woofercal score apparently. Ideally I would get as close to 99 as possible as they have in the Genelec demo rooms. Even if I have 90 - I don’t care. I know it’s not perfect but it’s perfect enough for me right now. In fact would even pleased that there is some chase left as it will be sad to quit this chasing behavior I’ve had for the last 2 decades or more. Old habits dies hard and too much perfection at once might be too much to take in.
Then throw a Trinnov on that? Other dimension level.
At this level of expenditure I still hold that peace of mind is a factor but I do agree with you that the ultimate peace of mind is how those sweet waves hit your ear drums.
In terms of the actual purchase peace of mind is pretty much what a purchase at this level is. If spending $5k such i as I did on those trade in passives I knew I couldn’t afford peace of mind. Those days the price of that was $100k+ maybe some Wilson audio thing with huge mega mono blocks. Then someone will bug you about cables power conditioners and then panels.
Today $28k - for me. I’m peace’d out of this hobby and thrust into musical nirvana. Add the Trinnov and acoustic treatments and the only thing left would be maybe hire someone to optimize to the panels but since this is a rented space that is out of the question.
On every level logically, psychologically and most importantly AURALLY. I’m done.
. Just done. I can’t even believe it! 10 years ago I could not have imagined it! Give me any car on this planet and it will not give me even 10% of the satisfaction of this.
No this is not just a hobby. It is a way of life. You can choose to stay on the equipment side or embrace the music side. Finally I can get to the other side. Worrying more about keeping your ears clean and which music suggestion engine is best for me.