$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[Bugal1998]

I know speakers are expensive, but this isn't such a serious issue. Just buy them and enjoy them - if the speakers and the price are legit, there's nothing to regret. They're a known quantity and will sound great. Is it possible there's another speaker somewhere in the universe that you would prefer? Well it's entirely POSSIBLE, but who cares?

This!

The search was fun, but I don’t pretend to have the best speakers in the world, or even the best speaker for me. I have a speaker that I enjoy overall more than the other’s I’ve been able to audition, and I enjoy them enough to no longer care if there’s another speaker I might prefer; I’ve reached the end of the game and now I just enjoy them every chance I get.

 

[srrxr71]

@sarumbear I mean no offense, just to clarify that “S” in ASR:

Your first claim is fully subjective.
Your second claim, as worded, is nonsense in error.
Your third claim - buying a $30 SPL meter before spending $10,000 on kit - I could not agree with you more. Except that step is more common sense than science, and as such perhaps cannot be trained.

I mean we all have that AudioTools app on our phones. But do we have a system capable of that kind of SPL capability at our disposal before purchasing said system?

When you hear some of these high end modern systems you have no idea how sweet they sound. (Or maybe you do ) You want to crank them up. Some songs. Some guitar riffs.

One other point I’d like to make is that a studio monitor will alert you to protection and clipping because actually producing happens on them. The user needs to know if something is not absolutely 100%.


I can say that while those lights flash there is no audible effect that I can discern.


In a passive system things will distort to large degree without warning and before your ears can discern it.

I’ve probably listened to my old passive floorstanders running 20% distortion and didn’t even know it.

Yes of course I knew what my SPL level was with the 8341 via GLM dBc display. But it’s all over the place and are you looking at peaks and wondering how short of a peak etc. Generally I was seeing 99-107dBc. With the 8361 I see 99-112dBc.

You can time slice that in ways that give you different numbers. How does that correlate to satiety? No idea.

You can’t poindexter that stuff from even knowing the numbers that satisfy you.

You certainly can’t poindexter this stuff from some graphs. Those 2 graphs are identical. They may indicate to some poindexter that there is no difference or that no sub is needed.

The problem is music is dynamic. I saw numbers flash on a screen. Just moving up and down. I expected +11dB jump from the specs but really am getting +5dB at best. However those numbers are not telling me about the peaks which must be a LOT higher in terms of energy output. Also the air coming out of the slot woofers is on another level.

It’s such pity that our hearing is logarithmic. That line between just short of satiety and “just a little more” is so thin. It can fall anywhere and easily you can push for 2-3x the power requirement.

After the science is checked (here and mostly done by Amir) then it becomes a matter of art. Especially at this level of the game. Just too many factors which can or not cause satiety. Obviously at this level people are picky and have high expectations.

You can’t really know until they are in your space and you have experimented with walls, triangles and placement. The graphs did their job and did it well but now it’s another territory.

 

[sarumbear]

You can’t really know until they are in your space and you have experimented with walls and placement.

If that was true there would be no sound reinforcement system design of any type, planning or specifying.

Thankfully, it isn’t.

 

[srrxr71]

If that was true there would be no sound reinforcement system design of any type, planning or specifying.

Thankfully, it isn’t.

I’m not getting or building a sound reinforcement system. I’m just buying an audio system for my single spot in my sofa for me to sit and listen to music to my personal level of satiety.

I can certainly respect your perspective of perhaps building out a night club or even a restaurant.

But that’s not what we are doing here.

 

[LTig]

I’m not getting or building a sound reinforcement system. I’m just buying an audio system for my single spot in my sofa for me to sit and listen to music to my personal level of satiety.

I can certainly respect your perspective of perhaps building out a night club or even a restaurant.

But that’s not what we are doing here.

This is correct. Designing a system for private use in a private home is much less demanding and difficult than doing the same for a large audience.

 

[MKR]

Having watched @MKR throughout this thread, it’s obvious he has his act together and is capable of assessing the dealer and level of risk involved. I’m likewise sure he knows a really good deal when he sees one.

There’s really no such thing as a true end game speaker or any other component. We are talking here about a class of superb performing speakers, any one of which will be superb. Some may be more or less appealing to some people. With the right price, and assuming they are brand new, worst case you use them for a while and sell at little or no loss.

@mglobe Very kind of you sir. I like to think I have my act together, but sometimes I wonder ... It is indeed a very good deal (I used to actually own a high end audio retail business, and understand the financial and margin aspects, so know a good deal when I see one)

I have high confidence I will very much like (probably love, at least based upon my research) the Salon 2s. But at the same time I absolutely abhor buyer's remorse, hence the reasons for the auditions ... of course after having the Salon 2s if I never listen to another speaker again then no buyer's remorse

By the way, I would also acquire a brand new Voice 2 as part of this deal (for the home theater aspect of course )

 

[bo_knows]

@mglobe Very kind of you sir. I like to think I have my act together, but sometimes I wonder ... It is indeed a very good deal (I used to actually own a high end audio retail business, and understand the financial and margin aspects, so know a good deal when I see one)

I have high confidence I will very much like (probably love, at least based upon my research) the Salon 2s. But at the same time I absolutely abhor buyer's remorse, hence the reasons for the auditions ... of course after having the Salon 2s if I never listen to another speaker again then no buyer's remorse

By the way, I would also acquire a brand new Voice 2 as part of this deal (for the home theater aspect of course )

Go for it and settle down. After a while, no matter what speaker(s) you have, the analytical audiophile mind will always think that the bass can be a little tighter, and deeper, the sounds stage can be wider, and deeper and imagining can be more precise. and etc. It never ends...LOL.

 

[srrxr71]

This is correct. Designing a system for private use in a private home is much less demanding and difficult than doing the same for a large audience.

That’s a true statement without a doubt. However if you are doing sound reinforcement you can just add as you please extra sources as needed.

If my goal were to make this a nightclub I would simply walk around with a dB meter and see where I could add more sound sources of the needed frequency ranges.

However i’m not trained or educated in that field and if that were the goal I would hire someone.

Here the constraint is only 2 sources emitting reference (studio) quality sound creating a soundstage in front of me with satisfying levels. I want to hear as closely as possible what the person mixing my music heard. Which is different from sound reinforcement.

Now you could argue that line arrays used at concerts have a similar goal. They also have that advantage of using multiple sources of sound.

For my listening distances point source is my strong preference. That could be right or wrong but at 3m I would rather.

So just get the most powerful point source available is my strategy. Easy. Very easy. Just email my dealer. If that isn’t enough well thank heaven they made a woofer system for that purpose. If even that is not enough then try larger studio main monitors and perhaps sit a little further back. For my home circumstances I would rather sit closer and not emit sound all over the neighborhood by simply escalating output. Output is not the primary goal here, quality is. If I had to compromise on output or quality I’ll take the hit on output any day. The designer of a sound reinforcement system might look at it the other way around.

I have never heard a sound reinforcement system come up to this level of detail or simply just putting a solid voice right in front of my face. Maybe they exist. I haven’t heard it. This level of realism and holography is incredible and there is no Trinnov here yet. Which I hear will take it to another level.

 

[MKR]

That’s a true statement without a doubt. However if you are doing sound reinforcement you can just add as you please extra sources as needed.

If my goal were to make this a nightclub I would simply walk around with a dB meter and see where I could add more sound sources of the needed frequency ranges.

However i’m not trained or educated in that field and if that were the goal I would hire someone.

Here the constraint is only 2 sources emitting reference (studio) quality sound creating a soundstage in front of me with satisfying levels. I want to hear as closely as possible what the person mixing my music heard. Which is different from sound reinforcement.

Now you could argue that line arrays used at concerts have a similar goal. They also have that advantage of using multiple sources of sound.

For my listening distances point source is my strong preference. That could be right or wrong but at 3m I would rather.

So just get the most powerful point source available is my strategy. Easy. Very easy. Just email my dealer. If that isn’t enough well thank heaven they made a woofer system for that purpose. If even that is not enough then try larger studio main monitors and perhaps sit a little further back. For my home circumstances I would rather sit closer and not emit sound all over the neighborhood by simply escalating output. Output is not the primary goal here, quality is. If I had to compromise on output or quality I’ll take the hit on output any day. The designer of a sound reinforcement system might look at it the other way around.

I have never heard a sound reinforcement system come up to this level of detail or simply just putting a solid voice right in front of my face. Maybe they exist. I haven’t heard it. This level of realism and holography is incredible and there is no Trinnov here yet. Which I hear will take it to another level.

Looking forward to your impressions of the W371! Delivery tomorrow, correct? You must feel like a kid on Christmas Eve ... You are going to have a fun weekend I expect

 

[benanders]

But at the same time I absolutely abhor buyer's remorse, hence the reasons for the auditions ... of course after having the Salon 2s if I never listen to another speaker again then no buyer's remorse

Don’t we all, @MKR .
But I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss possible buyer’s remorse even if you never hear another speaker (ha!). You’ve already heard from at least one other person who dismissed the Salon2, as an owner, in favor of another model you’ve shortlisted, due to a perceived Salon 2 deficiency in one of your criteria for end game speakers. That’s someone who bought multiple speakers in your “end game” range you’ve never heard. That’s the sort of opinion I’d try to compare to my own, were I in your position, wry grin.

Of the apex-system-seekers I’ve met, many continue to experience shifting preferences/expectations over time. If they don’t hear something else they like better after a while, they may begin to perceive something(s) they want improved within their existing system. The psychological factors against truly “end game” audio seem to be what end that game.
I know, this is just me reiterating @Newman remark on “Grail vs. Search” using different words, and similarly, me not suggesting you’re one or the other.

What’s the warranty on the hot deal: new = full coverage, same duration as if direct from factory?
Personally I’m wary of anything that has to be bought quickly and comes as an increasingly convenient package (Voice 2). You simply can’t know if you like a speaker before you hear it. The inverse is not necessarily true, but at least a possibility!
Conversely, if the price is low enough to try out and, if not ideal, flip to financially accommodate any other model you’ve short-listed, well then by all means go for it… that’s basically an in-home trial with a hulking deposit - hard to beat.

Those bits aside, bear in mind a “low” price as to be sworn to secrecy is still highly relative: I wonder how many folks who’ve responded here have penetrated the 5-figure mark in a single pair of speakers, it’s surely relevant. Even $10k is a LOT of money for speakers, obviously (I’m not assuming that’s your Salon 2 price; it’s the lowest value without subtracting a place value from your budget, grin). Just because there are now many speakers priced into absurd territory does not mean $10k is too good a deal to pass up, IF that previously-$25k-speaker winds up only a “good” speaker to your ears. Them ain’t end game results, are they?

As a former dealer, I’m sure you must know well how much easier it is to feel apathetic about a speaker that doesn’t tick your boxes once heard, than it is to like LOVE a speaker sound unheard, once actually heard?

Btw: I don’t share the aforementioned sentiment that “it’s just a speaker.” No way. I’ve known too many folks who’ve had their lives wrecked over substantially less than $30k (or $10k or…), or who perhaps could’ve turned everything around with the same sum. Even if you won $30k at the tracks, your choice of speakers needn’t be so spontaneous. Which is clearly why you’re still here, yes? I think if you lay down 5 figures for a piece of audio (hobby) kit, it should be the ultimate for you. Perfect timing and big savings are not typically in line with your desired outcome. It’s easy for folks to be spontaneous with others’ money and may (I’m not saying does, but…) suggest how they handle their own. Are any of the responders here investment advisors for a living?

The biggest remorse that could come of holding off now is if you eventually decided to go with the Salon 2’s after auditions but have to pay a higher price. The difference between this initial deal now and price actually paid would be your cost for peace of mind. I’ve known more than a few audiophiles who refuse that sort of gamble (investment?), but their avoidance can cost them even more money over time.
#first_world_problems lol.

Just playing the guy on your other shoulder, that’s all!

 

[srrxr71]

@mglobe Very kind of you sir. I like to think I have my act together, but sometimes I wonder ... It is indeed a very good deal (I used to actually own a high end audio retail business, and understand the financial and margin aspects, so know a good deal when I see one)

I have high confidence I will very much like (probably love, at least based upon my research) the Salon 2s. But at the same time I absolutely abhor buyer's remorse, hence the reasons for the auditions ... of course after having the Salon 2s if I never listen to another speaker again then no buyer's remorse

By the way, I would also acquire a brand new Voice 2 as part of this deal (for the home theater aspect of course )

I don’t know how you would ever feel anything like buyer’s remorse if the Salons sound anything like these Genelecs and I bet they do. From all the measurements, testing and even impressions from people who heard both they are in the same league with advantages and disadvantages on a very fine scale.

Some prefer the wider dispersion of the Salons and some prefer the tighter dispersion of the Genelecs. If I had to speculate it comes down to music choice.

That debate will probably never die and it probably comes down to whether you listen to more natural space recordings like classical/jazz or studio recordings like mostly everything else.

I know what I prefer so I went to replicate a studio as far as I can.

Again I seriously doubt that I would hate classical out of studio monitors or hate studio music out of Salons. It might be slightly suboptimal as a suspicion which you will not know unless again they are both brought to your space and listened to.

I mean I doubt you would have actual regret from anything you bought from your list. It just sounds so good. In my 25 years of being in this hobby nothing I’ve heard even comes close. Even the LS50w as great as they are simply cannot put vocals in your face like this.

That’s the whole point imho. I had to use brain power to “get” the image on anything else I’ve heard in my life. With these zero brain power. Just plop yourself in front of them and press play. It’s like magic.

The one huge thing we are all losing from this is that you would have been the first person to have had detailed listening notes from about half a dozen of today’s state of the art audio reproduction system on the planet.

If the Salons take you to Nirvana then why regret? Even if you heard something else in another space and maybe thanks to some ephemeral conditions of that day, your travel, your mood, a million other factors you may never replicate made you feel some other speaker is better you might chase a bit with room panels instead.

You already know objectively you have one of the top 5 systems in the world in your own space. If there is a problem it isn’t the speakers. It could be anything else.

Do you have that confidence in the Salons? If not why?

 

[srrxr71]

Looking forward to your impressions of the W371! Delivery tomorrow, correct? You must feel like a kid on Christmas Eve ... You are going to have a fun weekend I expect

It’s going to be great! The only fly in the ointment is hopefully no drama from neighbors. I might make the effort to talk to them and negotiate times and let them know it’s only this weekend for testing that I will go that loud.

They’ve never confronted me but there is now HOA drama. I wonder if it’s just the crazy HOA lady. Which is what it seems to be as it’s not that loud outside. She’s been a real pain from day 1. Wanting to assert dominance by picking a fight with my movers. Haha.

I’ll talk to my actual neighbors and find out.

Edit: yes it’s exactly that. I went outside and controlled my levels with my phone. Even at blistering levels in my listening position it was barely 68dBa in any position outside. This is certainly not keeping any person in their second floor bedroom up at night.

In fact the first letter came from “daytime” listening when I had my 36 hour session. So it’s that stupid lady walking her dog by my house and hearing some music that caused it.

My actual neighbor is a cool guy so I’ll ask him. If needed I’ll place traps on the window closest to his side.

 

[srrxr71]

Btw: I don’t share the aforementioned sentiment that “it’s just a speaker.” No way. I’ve known too many folks who’ve had their lives wrecked over substantially less than $30k (or $10k or…), or who perhaps could’ve turned everything around with the same sum. Even if you won $30k at the tracks, your choice of speakers needn’t be so spontaneous. Which is clearly why you’re still here, yes? I think if you lay down 5 figures for a piece of audio (hobby) kit, it should be the ultimate for you. Perfect timing and big savings are not typically in line with your desired outcome. It’s easy for folks to be spontaneous with others’ money and may (I’m not saying does, but…) suggest how they handle their own. Are any of the responders here investment advisors for a living?

The biggest remorse that could come of holding off now is if you eventually decided to go with the Salon 2’s after auditions but have to pay a higher price. The difference between this initial deal now and price actually paid would be your cost for peace of mind. I’ve known more than a few audiophiles who refuse that sort of gamble (investment?), but their avoidance can cost them even more money over time.
#first_world_problems lol.

Just playing the guy on your other shoulder, that’s all!

Agreed.

There is no doubt $10k or $30k is life changing money.

However as I see them they bring so much to my life that I will likely do better in life overall as i’m just so happy. If after $10k one feels so strongly that adding another $18k is worth it because that money will come back in terms of just better performance in one’s career. Maybe it’s a cop out but I feel it lift my mood and my personal interactions on a level that will have me that money coming right back like a boomerang. Maybe magical thinking. But I can say for certain I would never feel that way about any car and I like cars a lot.

Secondly when you say “peace of mind” that is to some large degree what we are actually buying. It’s good to remember that.

That’s also where the impetus to get the woofer system came from. So I have for me “perfect” speakers to my ears and in my mind. Why not buy the peace of mind that comes with the dedicated woofer system for it? It’s just peace of mind that we are buying. For me it was easy.

Even if these are absolutely the best speakers for you, you may have a hard time feeling that given the circumstances of your purchase. Something will tend to eat away at you.

I can say that I had that happen to me once where the actual designer talked me into a trade in and sort of made my mind for me. I liked those speakers and they were perfectly adequate for living room music fun but I could never love them.

I suppose it comes down to how willing you are to buy/sell and ship things around. Personally I hate it. So that sense of remorse is much more likely in me.

However some folks are okay with it and see this as an in home demonstration opportunity with little downside.

But yes certainly this level of decision requires the guy on the other shoulder. Let’s not get carried away because it’s more easy to feel regret when decisions are made under these circumstances.

If you spending 10% of the budget on buying peace of mind it’s definitely worth it. Because the entire purchase is actually just that.

 

[benanders]

Heyya @srrxr71
You’re typing “peace of mind” but I think you’re trying to convey something other than what I meant by the phrase.

Agreed.

There is no doubt $10k or $30k is life changing money.

However as I see them they bring so much to my life that I will likely do better in life overall as i’m just so happy. If after $10k one feels so strongly that adding another $18k is worth it because that money will come back in terms of just better performance in one’s career. Maybe it’s a cop out but I feel it lift my mood and my personal interactions on a level that will have me that money coming right back like a boomerang. Maybe magical thinking. But I can say for certain I would never feel that way about any car and I like cars a lot.

I don’t feel anyone in this thread, myself included, passed judgement on how much is spent on speakers - the thread title serves as a pretty good filter for that. What I stated is that by a certain price threshold (and for me, certainly by 5-figs) the speakers better sound just as the listener wants, no less and surely not to be chalked up as “just” speakers (note how JUST can mean such different things; English as the nuisance always…). Same as hobby cars, indeed. Those kinds of prices mean, as you suggest, maximum return is warranted. I don’t think we are in disagreement here, more an issue of semantics.

Secondly when you say “peace of mind” that is to some large degree what we are actually buying. It’s good to remember that.

In speakers, I’d say we are buying fun. The more peace of mind we enable when we buy fun, the more that fun can persist through time without our (potential) psychological bargaining getting in its way

That’s also where the impetus to get the woofer system came from. So I have for me “perfect” speakers to my ears and in my mind. Why not buy the peace of mind that comes with the dedicated woofer system for it? It’s just peace of mind that we are buying. For me it was easy.

I’m not sure I’m following your meaning of “peace of mind” above.

Even if these are absolutely the best speakers for you, you may have a hard time feeling that given the circumstances of your purchase. Something will tend to eat away at you.

I can say that I had that happen to me once where the actual designer talked me into a trade in and sort of made my mind for me.

That’s a scenario where you opted to surrender exactly what I mean by “peace of mind” in making a purchase. Did you listen to the designer’s speakers before purchase? Do some true A/B comparisons? “No” to either query would be further reduction of peace of mind.

I liked those speakers and they were perfectly adequate for living room music fun but I could never love them.

Perhaps in part because those speakers were bought without much (any?) peace of mind. There was a pressure factor in your purchase, as there is now with @MKR Salon2’s.

I suppose it comes down to how willing you are to buy/sell and ship things around. Personally I hate it. So that sense of remorse is much more likely in me.

However some folks are okay with it and see this as an in home demonstration opportunity with little downside.

Like it or not, that gives firsthand experience - sampling subjectively, in person - not eyeballing charts (also often subjective) or “having” impressions concatenated from reading the words of online strangers (i.e., expectations). Real-world experience (auditioning) can give a buyer peace of mind ahead of purchase. Lack of it potentially sacrifices peace of mind. Whether that manifests an issue for listening post-purchase would depend on a number of physical and psychological factors hard to tease apart.

But yes certainly this level of decision requires the guy on the other shoulder. Let’s not get carried away because it’s more easy to feel regret when decisions are made under these circumstances.

If you spending 10% of the budget on buying peace of mind it’s definitely worth it. Because the entire purchase is actually just that.

To reiterate, while I don’t want to delve into the metaphysics of justifying/countering particular speaker purchases on ASR (after all, psychology is often mocked as a “soft science” at best, ha!), speakers are bought by listeners for fun. Peace of mind, I think not so much. Like almost anything else “hobby” with moving parts, yes?

You mentioned getting a new speaker/speakers from a line with which you’re already familiar, Genelec is it?
And you’re sure they’ll be great?
Only peace of mind earned by prior experience should give someone that level of confidence, and I’m glad for you that it’s enhancing your… fun!

 

[Vacceo]

I mentioned somethimg about spl and dynamic range before, but It would be more interesting to read some answers a bit more technical so I can learn somethimg.

In a recent video from Audioholics about Dirac Mimo, Gene and Matthew discussed types of speakers. Gene argued that KEF coaxials are, according to him, limited in output and thus, dynamic range. He contrasted them with Perlisten speakers.

Looking at numbers and polar graphs, bot companies seem to provide a very similar experience except for the SPL, but that should be a non-issue on a smaller room and thus, not needing a lot of sound pressure.

I may be getting all wrong, so comments and explanation are very welcome.

 

[srrxr71]

Heyya @srrxr71
You’re typing “peace of mind” but I think you’re trying to convey something other than what I meant by the phrase.


I don’t feel anyone in this thread, myself included, passed judgement on how much is spent on speakers - the thread title serves as a pretty good filter for that. What I stated is that by a certain price threshold (and for me, certainly by 5-figs) the speakers better sound just as the listener wants, no less and surely not to be chalked up as “just” speakers (note how JUST can mean such different things; English as the nuisance always…). Same as hobby cars, indeed. Those kinds of prices mean, as you suggest, maximum return is warranted. I don’t think we are in disagreement here, more an issue of semantics.



In speakers, I’d say we are buying fun. The more peace of mind we enable when we buy fun, the more that fun can persist through time without our (potential) psychological bargaining getting in its way



I’m not sure I’m following your meaning of “peace of mind” above.



That’s a scenario where you opted to surrender exactly what I mean by “peace of mind” in making a purchase. Did you listen to the designer’s speakers before purchase? Do some true A/B comparisons? “No” to either query would be further reduction of peace of mind.



Perhaps in part because those speakers were bought without much (any?) peace of mind. There was a pressure factor in your purchase, as there is now with @MKR Salon2’s.



Like it or not, that gives firsthand experience - sampling subjectively, in person - not eyeballing charts (also often subjective) or “having” impressions concatenated from reading the words of online strangers (i.e., expectations). Real-world experience (auditioning) can give a buyer peace of mind ahead of purchase. Lack of it potentially sacrifices peace of mind. Whether that manifests an issue for listening post-purchase would depend on a number of physical and psychological factors hard to tease apart.



To reiterate, while I don’t want to delve into the metaphysics of justifying/countering particular speaker purchases on ASR (after all, psychology is often mocked as a “soft science” at best, ha!), speakers are bought by listeners for fun. Peace of mind, I think not so much. Like almost anything else “hobby” with moving parts, yes?

You mentioned getting a new speaker/speakers from a line with which you’re already familiar, Genelec is it?
And you’re sure they’ll be great?
Only peace of mind earned by prior experience should give someone that level of confidence, and I’m glad for you that it’s enhancing your… fun!

Hi benanders!


On your first point we certainly do not disagree. Having heard what is possible today the biggest issue imho is that you will be wasting some years with something you don’t absolutely love. That’s what happened to me.


I feel like at this level it’s beyond fun. Of course it’s fun. It’s also spiritual recharge. Music has been a part of every culture of every people on earth.

However for us - who definitely have a “need” for perfection - and I almost dislike to admit it - there is some external validation component. One easy one is perhaps “top 5 speakers as measured on ASR”.

In some sense this entire thread beyond being a chronicle of “first world problems” is also about external validation at least of the selection methodology.

So I suppose that ties into “peace of mind”.

This could be different for each individual. For me it’s simply I know the best studios on earth are making music on something comparable (especially with the Trinnov piece) to what I desire.

For another individual it could be:

“I went to LA spent 3 days and auditioned 6 different top systems of the world and I heard the differences and compromises of each and this one fits me like a glove”



In the case of my previous situation I bought the speakers directly from the designer after a local auction. They were amazing in the store. Pretty decent in my residence at the time. They were big expensive and made by a well renowned designer and I suppose I had to hype myself up with that thought process when I listened because they were not mind blowing at home as they were at the store.

After some years instead of just selling them I called the factory and got his son. His son offered me a trade in. I just took it. The guy designs good speakers with a following. I took the easy path.

I’d say even in 2012 the “audiophile” world was a mess. Every dealer has their showcase system with everything set up perfectly and the perfect music for that system. What can you do?

Either you could go to every hi-fi dealer in town and audition their lines knowing that none of it is going to sound the same at home or you could read reviews and get on some bandwagon of some sort.

I went against my judgment because at that point in my journey I was all about active designs. Because they take so many factors out of the equation. Sometimes you don’t want to be “master of your destiny” because you’re not on engineer and even if you are you did not engineer the speaker. At best you can buy the same amp the designer used to design and test the speaker. That was my thought process after about 15 years in the hobby (including teenage years as broke magazine reader).

Still I bought those passives because I had that trade in offer.

I also bought - keeping in line with my personal conclusion about actives and value - a pair studio monitors. They actually were a lot better. I just had to sit at a desk. Now they were “better” mostly due to ratio of direct/reflected sound facilitated by sitting close. Even in a midfield position, while not as pure, seemed to involve quite a bit less brain power to get a nice solid image from the soundstage than my huge floor standing passives.

So the floor standing passives were my main entertainment speakers and they did well. They played loud. Brought me much satisfaction but I had no idea is they were better than anything else just that the designer is well known in some circles.

Something purchased like this can’t be end game for you. Because it’s purchased in a vacuum in a sense. It was a much smaller budget so I sort of took the lazy path there.

I should have just sold the original speakers and developed my Focal system with subs and developed a system around those as my primary system and forgone the bedroom system. That would have been money much better spent in my case.

This was all complicated by the fact that those days it was not easy to integrate powered monitors into a home A/V system - even just plain stereo. We did not have all the nice products we have today.

In fact my current system is only possible thanks to the Bluesound Node with its HDMI to coax ability and that product came out only last year. For the passives I had a NAD integrated which was one of the first to have HDMI. But you could not use powered monitors with that setup.

So that’s a huge part of why I justified trading in my old passives for new ones. But I knew deep down that for me - at least mentally - actives were my holy grail. So I kept off my true path due to convenience and flexibility factors.

Fast forward to today and I have confirmed that for me active monitors are my holy grail.

I started with LS50W and loved them but whether I heard anything or not the very thought of IMD and “darn my mid range driver is moving like crazy - does that make sense?” Was what mentally devalued those otherwise excellent speakers in my mind.

So I had in my mind what I knew would solve that problem. A 3-way coaxial design. Add to that Amir’s reviews here. Nearly perfect objective measurements. Some subjective impressions also. That was enough to push the “order” button.

Prior to delivery I had a chance to audition by sheer luck. That day I knew I made the right choice. What I heard was magic on a level I had never before experienced on this journey.

All factors were satisfied.

My internal mental need for active design. Point source - which sitting close to the Focals taught me about very well, also from owning a pair of 8010 - both of those taught me about what happens if you sit close and move your head - everything shifts. You have only one ideal position for your head.

External factors such as the nearly perfect measurements as found here. The fact that a good amount of music is made and checked on these or something like these.

Then the final internal factor: the audition. That was end of the story for me. Done deal.

Then getting them home. So I know how this line sounds in my own space. Incredible!

Whether you have $6k or $28k they sound the same just depends on the space you need to fill. So I loved the sound of the $6k ones and when I moved into a bigger space - the only reason for which was to listen to my music louder - then it was obvious to just upscale what I already love. What already sorts out all my logical and psychological factors.

Yeah I can’t tell you how happy I am to find this place. For me it is literally aural heaven. If there is something better I really don’t care. It could be better in one aspect perhaps at the cost of something else.

For me this is it. With or without Trinnov amazing.

The impetus to add a Trinnov comes from both internal factors like reading over what it does. External factors such as reading people’s impressions of it. The fact again that many folks who make your music use it.

However I have not heard it. But I have no qualms about getting it and “knowing” that it will be the final icing on the cake in my journey.

Finally I can get off this site and listen to music

There is no better end goal.


Btw as an aside and everyone will take this as they will. If you look at the “W371 Holy Grail” thread. It is a rare thread in this site where the poster actually posts his music. That’s what this system inspires you to do. You stop thinking in terms of equipment and soundstage, dispersion etc blah blah and you start thinking in terms of the music. The vocals, guitars, drums. It’s incredible.

That’s my definition of end game. You can try it for $6k or $28k. Which is what I love about it. You pay more to scale up SPL. All other differences are minor until you add the woofer system which cleans up the mids and speeds up the bass.

Yes the woofer system does buy peace of mind. Because once you get it and calibrate it to will hopefully fix some issues which even 45 acoustic panels can not fix in here. When it comes to mitigating room effects it’s top 3 in world. Constant directivity down to 60Hz? That’s insanity. Magic. You even get a report which you can compare results with actual studios. Then as I will see later today you get a woofercal score apparently. Ideally I would get as close to 99 as possible as they have in the Genelec demo rooms. Even if I have 90 - I don’t care. I know it’s not perfect but it’s perfect enough for me right now. In fact would even pleased that there is some chase left as it will be sad to quit this chasing behavior I’ve had for the last 2 decades or more. Old habits dies hard and too much perfection at once might be too much to take in.

Then throw a Trinnov on that? Other dimension level.

At this level of expenditure I still hold that peace of mind is a factor but I do agree with you that the ultimate peace of mind is how those sweet waves hit your ear drums.

In terms of the actual purchase peace of mind is pretty much what a purchase at this level is. If spending $5k such i as I did on those trade in passives I knew I couldn’t afford peace of mind. Those days the price of that was $100k+ maybe some Wilson audio thing with huge mega mono blocks. Then someone will bug you about cables power conditioners and then panels.

Today $28k - for me. I’m peace’d out of this hobby and thrust into musical nirvana. Add the Trinnov and acoustic treatments and the only thing left would be maybe hire someone to optimize to the panels but since this is a rented space that is out of the question.

On every level logically, psychologically and most importantly AURALLY. I’m done. . Just done. I can’t even believe it! 10 years ago I could not have imagined it! Give me any car on this planet and it will not give me even 10% of the satisfaction of this.

No this is not just a hobby. It is a way of life. You can choose to stay on the equipment side or embrace the music side. Finally I can get to the other side. Worrying more about keeping your ears clean and which music suggestion engine is best for me.

 

[MKR]

A HUGE thanks to all for your outstanding comments and advice. Felt like I was visiting a (good) psychologist and you all did well to analyze my psychotic behavior !

UPDATE on the situation ... Long story short I will be able to audition before the purchase. Dealer taking a risk here to acquire the speakers WITHOUT my purchase commitment, which I really appreciate. Note this dealer has a stellar reputation, so none of this is surprising (not to me anyway). So, I will be taking an audition trip in next 2-3 weeks, and as the dealer is located in a larger metro area, I will also be auditioning other speakers at other dealers while I am there. Getting back to that "peace of mind" track .

Thanks again all for your great counsel and words of encouragement, this forum truly is the best on the net for those seeking help to find their true audio nirvana.

More to come ...

 

[srrxr71]

I mentioned somethimg about spl and dynamic range before, but It would be more interesting to read some answers a bit more technical so I can learn somethimg.

In a recent video from Audioholics about Dirac Mimo, Gene and Matthew discussed types of speakers. Gene argued that KEF coaxials are, according to him, limited in output and thus, dynamic range. He contrasted them with Perlisten speakers.

Looking at numbers and polar graphs, bot companies seem to provide a very similar experience except for the SPL, but that should be a non-issue on a smaller room and thus, not needing a lot of sound pressure.

I may be getting all wrong, so comments and explanation are very welcome.

Yes I agree. It’s all converging to that point.

Which is why given the dimensions of OP’s room I wonder why he has not gone to the Harman experience center yet to audition the JBL M2. That would be where all my pointers would be pointing for highest probability of suitable fit for his space.

Plenty of time to go and get that cheap insurance before dropping $20k unless the goal is to get everything sent home and listen and then send back what didn’t work.

A good chunk of the budget would be spent on that and it’s okay because it’s buying “peace of mind”. The ultimate. Listening to each in your own space. Nothing can beat that.

 

[srrxr71]

A HUGE thanks to all for your outstanding comments and advice. Felt like I was visiting a (good) psychologist and you all did well to analyze my psychotic behavior !

UPDATE on the situation ... Long story short I will be able to audition before the purchase. Dealer taking a risk here to acquire the speakers WITHOUT my purchase commitment, which I really appreciate. Note this dealer has a stellar reputation, so none of this is surprising (not to me anyway). So, I will be taking an audition trip in next 2-3 weeks, and as the dealer is located in a larger metro area, I will also be auditioning other speakers at other dealers while I am there. Getting back to that "peace of mind" track .

Thanks again all for your great counsel and words of encouragement, this forum truly is the best on the net for those seeking help to find their true audio nirvana.

More to come ...

I love it! Great news! Of course you mean LA. You can audition everything there. The only other option is Nashville I believe.

 

[MKR]

I love it! Great news! Of course you mean LA. You can audition everything there. The only other option is Nashville I believe.

Not LA (or Nashville), but certainly I can audition most of what I have on my short list, except for some of the lesser known boutique brands ;-)