$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[srrxr71]

Also I feel like you have to optimize for either HT or music. Rather discover your compromises and figure out what % use is going to be in which category.

In stereo these genelecs are useless outside of the sweet spot. That’s the truth.

So a solid center channel is a must to have a multiple person setup.

Then you have to consider the mains would need to be toed in less. They spray a 45 degree cone of sound. So for that case you may want diffusion more than absorption on the side. For music you may want something else.

If the M2 has wider dispersion then many of those problems are solved.

Studio monitors are meant for one person listening.

So you could do M2 x 2 plus 3 rhythmik 15” subs with multi sub optimization.

It’s more work and some research but worth it for that kind of space.

It’s all horses for courses. Also the advice to consult an acoustic consultant at least is good advice. That info is good to rule out unsuitable speakers.

Personally I don’t find HT to be worth spending so much on. Except the center channel.

I would just run my front 2 channels through a pair of JBL SRX835 for that purpose. 90 degree dispersion and loud!

Edit: another fun fact. Even the Genelec monitor selection guide tells you that even for the “giant” 8361 that it would rather not be ideal for you to be sitting further than about 10 feet from each monitor.

 

[MKR]

I can give you and answer on the phono questions: there are some phono stages with optical outs. Logically you´ll have a conversion no matter what (analog to digital), but once done, it can be sent to your actives. Of course if you end up using an AVR or similar, many include phono stages or analog outs to plug one.

BTW, for actives, they are not out yet, but Sigberg is working on the Manta speakers. Those will be able to get stupid loud, you may want to take a look at them.

@Vacceo Well, if converted digital I do not see the point of phono at all. Might as well skip all the hoopla hand go right to CD transport or stream. Will have to find a different way to continue to enjoy my very large LP collection

You mean these? Not available until summer 2023! Ain’t waiting that long, money burning a hole in my pocket

active loudspeakers wideband cardioid Sigberg Audio MANTA

wideband Cardioid speakers, cardioid bass, dynamic range the most efficient and high sensitivity cardioid hifi speakers. 12" midbass driver, designed for subwoofers

www.sigbergaudio.no

 

[Vacceo]

Vynil to digital will not "clean" the sound. All the elements present in the record, including ticks and imperfections, will be sent to your speakers. In fact, if the phono stage digitalizes well, you should not be able to notice a difference.

For the already existing Sigberg speakers, the monitors are quite, quite loud as they are too. 110 db tops is not a number to laugh at.

 

[srrxr71]

@Vacceo Well, if converted digital I do not see the point of phono at all. Might as well skip all the hoopla hand go right to CD transport or stream. Will have to find a different way to continue to enjoy my very large LP collection

You mean these? Not available until summer 2023! Ain’t waiting that long, money burning a hole in my pocket

active loudspeakers wideband cardioid Sigberg Audio MANTA

wideband Cardioid speakers, cardioid bass, dynamic range the most efficient and high sensitivity cardioid hifi speakers. 12" midbass driver, designed for subwoofers

www.sigbergaudio.no

Maybe some company will digitize and sort your records?

I always appreciate the nice people who publish their vinyl “rips” to YouTube. So pleasurable to listen to.

 

[Bugal1998]

@Bugal1998 Great stuff sir, very helpful, thank you. The fact that you have actually auditioned so many on my short list certainly gives your opinion more weight

I may be in the minority preferring the M2 over the Salon and Performa Be series, so definitely audition if you can.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

@Kal Rubinson Not sure they exist,yet. Actually, I thought Genesis was out of business, but seems not.

Gary Koh took over Genesis in 2002 and is still at it.
(as illustrated above. )

 

[MKR]

Also I feel like you have to optimize for either HT or music. Rather discover your compromises and figure out what % use is going to be in which category.

In stereo these genelecs are useless outside of the sweet spot. That’s the truth.

So a solid center channel is a must to have a multiple person setup.

Then you have to consider the mains would need to be toed in less. They spray a 45 degree cone of sound. So for that case you may want diffusion more than absorption on the side. For music you may want something else.

If the M2 has wider dispersion then many of those problems are solved.

Studio monitors are meant for one person listening.

So you could do M2 x 2 plus 3 rhythmik 15” subs with multi sub optimization.

It’s more work and some research but worth it for that kind of space.

It’s all horses for courses. Also the advice to consult an acoustic consultant at least is good advice. That info is good to rule out unsuitable speakers.

Personally I don’t find HT to be worth spending so much on. Except the center channel.

I would just run my front 2 channels through a pair of JBL SRX835 for that purpose. 90 degree dispersion and loud!

Edit: another fun fact. Even the Genelec monitor selection guide tells you that even for the “giant” 8361 that it would rather not be ideal for you to be sitting further than about 10 feet from each monitor.

@srrxr71 Well, you just burst my Genelec bubble. I do NOT want a narrow dispersion, that is a deal killer. Multiple people need to enjoy these speakers at the same time. With the 8361 sounds like I could only let one person in the listening room at a time LOL

 

[srrxr71]

@srrxr71 Well, you just burst my Genelec bubble. I do NOT want a narrow dispersion, that is a deal killer. Multiple people need to enjoy these speakers at the same time. With the 8361 sounds like I could only let one person in the listening room at a time LOL

Yeah for HT maybe a couple but that’s about it.

HT is a whole other ball game. But you could maintain 2 systems optimized for each at lower cost than trying to optimize each.

So Genelec are like “open air walkman”. The best in the world at that. But not really for HT.

 

[Absolute]

@Absolute Hmmmm … care to elaborate? A reminder I am looking also for accuracy/neutrality, not just output capability. I want it all! (for $30k max of course )

What do you need me to elaborate? The kii's sounds harsh when loud because the mid and tweeter are distorting badly. BXT helps the lower end, but can't save the day for the mid and tweet. You get more of the punch and impact, but the harshness remains. Up to a certain spl they are excellent, but these aren't home theater-speakers.

In my eyes the whole accuracy/neutrality thing is relative. Does it matter if the spinorama is better for a small two-way speaker than a Line source when the two-way lose the whole upper bass/lower mids in-situ due to SBIR cancellations and it distorts heavily when played at spirited levels in your room?

Elaborating the M2 upgrading; The M2 is a simple design, a square box with two drivers - easy to replicate for "cheap" since the drivers, box size, drawings and EQ settings are widely available. But it's still a two-way with certain compromises that could be improved upon.
A second woofer close to the floor gives far less upper bass cancellation, improves capacity in the area and allows for a midwoofer better suited for pure mids. The original one is rather heavy in order to play deep bass, making it compromised for higher frequencies.
Going further one could make the mid a 12 or 10" instead, allowing for a higher cross-over making the dispersion more constant. As a bonus the original D2 compression driver would live a way easier life - or any compression driver for that matter.

Or you could just go half-way there by finding a set of PBN Montana M2!5 on sale somewhere.

I think people underestimate how difficult it is getting to an end-game level of sound-quality in a large, acoustically treated room. For me there's a few things more important than the spinorama itself;

- Overkill capacity is needed at all frequency ranges.
- In-room response should be very smooth spatially averaged before any EQ.
- Dispersion should be consistent so that all seats hear the same sound quality.

This means you need a far bigger bass system than you think, a well-treated and optimized room and speakers with considered dispersion and number/placement of drivers - as well as equipped with high-capacity good quality drivers.

Depending on your room it may mean that you need soffit mounted speakers, line arrays, constant directivity horns or cardioide-based, so I would advise to include professionals in your design stage to avoid fecking yourself over from the get-go.

 

[Vacceo]

Yeah for HT maybe a couple but that’s about it.

HT is a whole other ball game. But you could maintain 2 systems optimized for each at lower cost than trying to optimize each.

Not that different, to be honest. If you start with an outstanding stereo, it is possible to be more contained with the rest of the speakers except the center.

 

[MKR]

Gary Koh took over Genesis in 2002 and is still at it.

Had no idea until today. Strange you never hear anything about them. Maybe because their offerings are bonkers expensive and only for the very wealthy… sigh

 

[srrxr71]

Not that different, to be honest. If you start with an outstanding stereo, it is possible to be more contained with the rest of the speakers except the center.

I suppose it depends on the size of audience you wish to cover. It his space 20x40 it really depends on his choice of who wants to do his triangle and also where the screen is and how big it is. How to treat that area etc

Also to be fair to Genelecs that guide for distance is based on ratio of direct to reflected for proper studio grade sound. With treatments maybe you can 15 feet away from each monitor. But not much more than that.

 

[MKR]

What do you need me to elaborate? The kii's sounds harsh when loud because the mid and tweeter are distorting badly. BXT helps the lower end, but can't save the day for the mid and tweet. You get more of the punch and impact, but the harshness remains. Up to a certain spl they are excellent, but these aren't home theater-speakers.

In my eyes the whole accuracy/neutrality thing is relative. Does it matter if the spinorama is better for a small two-way speaker than a Line source when the two-way lose the whole upper bass/lower mids in-situ due to SBIR cancellations and it distorts heavily when played at spirited levels in your room?

Elaborating the M2 upgrading; The M2 is a simple design, a square box with two drivers - easy to replicate for "cheap" since the drivers, box size, drawings and EQ settings are widely available. But it's still a two-way with certain compromises that could be improved upon.
A second woofer close to the floor gives far less upper bass cancellation, improves capacity in the area and allows for a midwoofer better suited for pure mids. The original one is rather heavy in order to play deep bass, making it compromised for higher frequencies.
Going further one could make the mid a 12 or 10" instead, allowing for a higher cross-over making the dispersion more constant. As a bonus the original D2 compression driver would live a way easier life - or any compression driver for that matter.

Or you could just go half-way there by finding a set of PBN Montana M2!5 on sale somewhere.

I think people underestimate how difficult it is getting to an end-game level of sound-quality in a large, acoustically treated room. For me there's a few things more important than the spinorama itself;

- Overkill capacity is needed at all frequency ranges.
- In-room response should be very smooth spatially averaged before any EQ.
- Dispersion should be consistent so that all seats hear the same sound quality.

This means you need a far bigger bass system than you think, a well-treated and optimized room and speakers with considered dispersion and number/placement of drivers - as well as equipped with high-capacity good quality drivers.

Depending on your room it may mean that you need soffit mounted speakers, line arrays, constant directivity horns or cardioide-based, so I would advise to include professionals in your design stage to avoid fecking yourself over from the get-go.

@Absolute … That’s exactly what I meant by elaborate, thank you.

Is there a speaker that exists that corrects all of the existing gaps you mentioned with the M2?

”Elaborating the M2 upgrading; The M2 is a simple design, a square box with two drivers - easy to replicate for "cheap" since the drivers, box size, drawings and EQ settings are widely available. But it's still a two-way with certain compromises that could be improved upon.
A second woofer close to the floor gives far less upper bass cancellation, improves capacity in the area and allows for a midwoofer better suited for pure mids. The original one is rather heavy in order to play deep bass, making it compromised for higher frequencies.
Going further one could make the mid a 12 or 10" instead, allowing for a higher cross-over making the dispersion more constant. As a bonus the original D2 compression driver would live a way easier life - or any compression driver for that matter.”

 

[Recluse-Animator]

Timberg looks like a Tidal speakers, very similar.

@Recluse-Animator
You can forget Borresen with only 30k.

Borresen M1

What do they have that cost so much? Bookshelf speakers for almost 100,000 Euro, with a bandwidth starting from 40 Hz, and probably with a decrease?

"Topology-optimized 3D-printed basket made of zirconium" The woofer is "two layers of spread tow carbon fiber, a layer of aramid honeycomb spacers in between and a titanium skin with Ansuz Supreme coating"

 

[garbulky]

Don’t bother spending that cash till you treat your room

 

[srrxr71]

Don’t bother spending that cash till you treat your room

Absolutely. That must be planned and budgeted out.

Otherwise it is not end game. Master the waves.

 

[Digital Mastering System]

I did not like country til a few years ago. If you’re open to suggestions, check out Sturgill Simpson, Billy Joe Shaver, Swamp Dogg, and Tony Joe White. I’ll add specific songs in a bit. These artists are all more “country adjacent,” with some very good tunes. I really started appreciating country music after mixing it live (sound guy here), and so on.

Just try to not like 'Boot Liquor', on Soma FM. It will change your mind.

 

[Recluse-Animator]

Surprised no one has mentioned JTR or RTJ.

https://www.jtrspeakers.com/

https://www.rtjaudio.com/

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I have come to understand that to paraphrase @jhaider , we massively overestimate our need for su

@FrantzM … Indeed, a bit of a drift, but entertaining and informative (at times) nonetheless

To confirm, I definitely plan for subwoofers, at least for the LFE, no question there. And yes, the more I research the 8C, the more it seems not the best choice given my requirements. Likely to be dropped from the list.

By the way, can you elaborate on your comment that some speakers on the short list do not have reputable/reliable measurements? Which ones?

Thanks!

Hi

Not an opinion as there are facts to back this up:
Regardless of the inherent bass capabilities of the speakers, It is advisable to use subwoofers. Even if the speakers in question were to come with their own powered attached "subwoofers". Small Room Rooms Acoustics" predict that in a room, smooth bass response across the listening volume is most likely to be achievable by several low frequency radiators than with one or two. Same "Small Rooms Acoustics predict also that the best position/placement that provides a good simulacrum of a real space where some audio event is occurring, is seldom the same for good, uniform bass. IOW placement of the speaker for best bass is not that for best imaging and the reproduction of the rest of the audio spectrum... Your room is large but falls, however under the field of "Small Room Acoustics". If budget allows it: Use subwoofers, for music, for movies, etc, for all and any audio reproduction, not just for LFE.


Perhaps "Reputable" is too strong a term but at this point. I would go with something @amirm, @hardisj (Erin) , or@napilopez or people of similar philosophy, have measured. A second distant would be measurements from Soundstage Networks... Interestingly, measurements from Genelec, Kef, Neuman and Revel tend to corroborate those of Amir, Erin or Napilopez. I consider thus, measurements from those brands as being "reliable" As for those of S'Phile , I tend to take them with a dim view... Perhaps reputable or reliable are too strong ters, but in my view S'Phile consider measurements as a sideshow, something with some entertainment value, It is definitely , not the basis of their determination..

Repeating and expanding on my first post, here.
I have no doubt the Genelec 8351 or 8361 are capable of lighting up that room if these are used with a pair of W371A .. If you add another subwoofer to the mix ... heavens!.
Same with the KH 420 plus subs. IMHO, Genelec and/or Neuman subwoofers are not cost effective; It seems to em there are better subwoofers out there for much less,
I have a hunch that the Kii3 + BXT would be up to the task too. No proof. Have seen measurements of the Kii3, splendid speaker .. the BXT add to its capabilities.
Knowing what I know now, about the 8C, I know it would shine in a smaller room. I don't know how it would integrate with subwoofers... in such a large room, I could be wrong...
The Revel Salon 2 or 328bE plus a trio of serious subwoofers (SVS SB 3000 (and up) or Rhythmik equivalent) would be endgame... I would think they can play louder and with more ease than the Kef Blade... This remains to be proven... though.

I have seen measurements for the Kaya and Perlsiten only on S'Phile .. see above ...

Peace.

 

[digitalfrost]

Honestly if you got that much cash to spend, why not build a double bass array? All your bass needs will be taken care of, and it opens up a lot of choice in speakers. Even a single bass array would be beneficial.