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$20-25k budget. Currently eyeing Genelec 8361A, KEF Blade One Meta, and the B&W 801D4.

Spotify really? It’s dull as hell I suggest Apple Music Lossless, and use any of those playlists converters (I use SongShift) to export your music library over and be happy! I was a Spotify Premium for over 8 years and the last few years desperately waiting for its lossless promise that never came.

MrT system : M1 Mac Mini USB > RME DAC 2FS> 2 x Hypex Nilai 500 Stereo amps > B&W 802 Nautilus + 2 x SVS SB 3000 > 40'X35’X22’ Great Room = AOK
 
Dedicate a portion of the budget to some room treatments that could also function as pieces of art ? Not too many pieces so that they won't become a burden when you decide to move. I think that you cannot escape SBIR effects with DSP/PEQ or by simply buying an expensive speaker.

Two pieces for primary reflection points.
Two pieces for secondary reflection points.
Thick absorption behind the listening space.
If the speakers you choose have constant directivity ( on and off axis mirrored) then placing absorption at the first reflection points could be detrimental.
Keith
 
Spotify really? It’s dull as hell I suggest Apple Music Lossless, and use any of those playlists converters (I use SongShift) to export your music library over and be happy! I was a Spotify Premium for over 8 years and the last few years desperately waiting for its lossless promise that never came.

MrT system : M1 Mac Mini USB > RME DAC 2FS> 2 x Hypex Nilai 500 Stereo amps > B&W 802 Nautilus + 2 x SVS SB 3000 > 40'X35’X22’ Great Room = AOK

One does not need $40K system to play lossy stream from Spotify. It will be a waste of resources.
 
Binary Amplitude Diffusers, they end up doing a good combination of diffusion and absorption. Also, for reasons that are somewhat obscure to me, they absorb bass a little better than just rockwool alone. https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/6a-alpha-panel-diffusor-absorber/

They provide some true diffusion, but apparent they also scatter well enough that they're usable at close distance.
i found pannels to be less useful than foam. i wonder whos salesman side we stand on :)
 
i found pannels to be less useful than foam. i wonder whos salesman side we stand on :)
There are many makers of panels. OP apparently leaves in apartment or other rented place and cannot do major remodeling of the room. Panels are a good choice and brand I mentioned makes them look nice to blend into modern design.
 
i found pannels to be less useful than foam. i wonder whos salesman side we stand on :)
If you have too much HF by far, (500hz+) then foam can be a good solution. Most people have problems throughout the frequency range, and of anything I've seen BAD panels are probably the most balanced acoustic treatment. They also scatter / diffuse in a way that you don't need to be sitting too far from them.

I used to run a small business selling acoustic foam, after that experience I wouldn't necessarily recommend it in most situations. It works for certain things but it's rarely going to be the one thing that fixes all your acoustic issues.
 
Looking to buy some nice speakers and I've been eyeing the used market. It seems that all of these options are in my budget if I'm willing to go used. I don't have any places near me to demo them, but I was curious if anyone's been able to compare these options previously. The wallet certainly says Genelec 8361A considering they're less than half the cost of the other 2 options. I definitely appreciate the aesthetics of the Blade One Metas and the B&W 801D4 more and was curious if there's also a big aural difference.

Musical genres I tend to listen to the most are techno, edm, pop, and R&B. Would greatly appreciate any input on this!
Asking back, if it was about a used car, used due to cost, a Porsche, a Lamborghini or, ah, a Cyber Truck for your daily commute in Tinseltown?
Blade versus Genelec is so much of a difference, and so much of the same in some criteria, example given the form factor, example given true to the source performance and both are coax designs, one active the other not?

In short B&W won‘t keep its monetray worth as long. Remaining decision‘s outcome wouldn‘t mean to much, leaving much room for non-audio criteria.

If I had the money and I had a knack for EDM and wouldn‘t need to care much about the size and stand I would feel lucky even without the speakers, but would anyway (!) take something less.

Edit: rather would chose a larger JBL, may be a vintage model even, with some heft to it, deliberately departing from exactness or neutrality in favor of fun factor, including style and joy of ownership, that most people couldn‘t afford.
 
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If the speakers you choose have constant directivity ( on and off axis mirrored) then placing absorption at the first reflection points could be detrimental.
Keith
Can you please explain why ?
 
Can you please explain why ?
Because early reflections are perceived as the same sound as the original source and therefore enhances what you might call the "spaciousness" of the sound. This only works well, however, when the off-axis sound that's getting reflected is substantially similar to the on-axis, hence wanting constant (or at least smooth) directivity. If the on-axis and off-axis don't match well due to poor directivity, then the reflections end up coloring the perceived sound. There's also the fact that absorbers generally act essentially as low-pass filters of varying frequency depending on their material and thickness, and it's easy to actually cause issues by misapplying and/or overapplying them.

Note that there are those who disagree with this, although studies show a listener preference for early reflections by my understanding (again, as long as they aren't unduly coloring the perceived sound). Rather than applying absorbers everywhere (though you certainly want some to tamp down liveliness, but often standard furnishings like carpet/rug and furniture achieve that goal just fine on their own), better to just get a speaker with good directivity in the first place IMO. Cardioid speakers (like the Dutch & Dutch 8c) or placing quality speakers into the wall would be my preference.

If I've made any errors here, I'm sure someone with more expertise will be along to correct me. :)
 
Because early reflections are perceived as the same sound as the original source and therefore enhances what you might call the "spaciousness" of the sound. This only works well, however, when the off-axis sound that's getting reflected is substantially similar to the on-axis, hence wanting constant (or at least smooth) directivity. If the on-axis and off-axis don't match well due to poor directivity, then the reflections end up coloring the perceived sound. There's also the fact that absorbers generally act essentially as low-pass filters of varying frequency depending on their material and thickness, and it's easy to actually cause issues by misapplying and/or overapplying them.

Note that there are those who disagree with this, although studies show a listener preference for early reflections by my understanding (again, as long as they aren't unduly coloring the perceived sound). Rather than applying absorbers everywhere (though you certainly want some to tamp down liveliness, but often standard furnishings like carpet/rug and furniture achieve that goal just fine on their own), better to just get a speaker with good directivity in the first place IMO. Cardioid speakers (like the Dutch & Dutch 8c) or placing quality speakers into the wall would be my preference.

If I've made any errors here, I'm sure someone with more expertise will be along to correct me. :)
Outstanding explanation! Well said

And fully agree, best to go with a modern speaker design that is room agnostic as much as possible to start. These days, especially with the newer crop of constant (and variable in some cases!) directivity and cardioid (go full range cardioid if possible), if you have to make your room look like a padded cell in an asylum to sound decent, you have chosen poorly.
 
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Because early reflections are perceived as the same sound as the original source and therefore enhances what you might call the "spaciousness" of the sound. This only works well, however, when the off-axis sound that's getting reflected is substantially similar to the on-axis, hence wanting constant (or at least smooth) directivity. If the on-axis and off-axis don't match well due to poor directivity, then the reflections end up coloring the perceived sound. There's also the fact that absorbers generally act essentially as low-pass filters of varying frequency depending on their material and thickness, and it's easy to actually cause issues by misapplying and/or overapplying them.

Note that there are those who disagree with this, although studies show a listener preference for early reflections by my understanding (again, as long as they aren't unduly coloring the perceived sound). Rather than applying absorbers everywhere (though you certainly want some to tamp down liveliness, but often standard furnishings like carpet/rug and furniture achieve that goal just fine on their own), better to just get a speaker with good directivity in the first place IMO. Cardioid speakers (like the Dutch & Dutch 8c) or placing quality speakers into the wall would be my preference.

If I've made any errors here, I'm sure someone with more expertise will be along to correct me. :)
For the sake of clarity I personally doubt your first paragraph‘s statement. Do you consider the directivity of an instrument, human voice included? There is something else going on, maybe pattern recognition? In case you have experience with most contemporary IEM transducers that bypass all reflections, even those from the individual‘s lugs (do you say that?), what is your opinion on the still spacious, clean sound?

If one is after unaltered sound right from the mixing console, would that enhance the fun? Look, with a caliber of KEF Blade or the top Genelecs, the sound may become anatomizing, dissecting, which may not be intended after all. Would a sound engineer anticipate the taste of a consumer, him chosing a cheaper, modest speaker with just the right colorations for the genre?
 
Because early reflections are perceived as the same sound as the original source and therefore enhances what you might call the "spaciousness" of the sound. This only works well, however, when the off-axis sound that's getting reflected is substantially similar to the on-axis, hence wanting constant (or at least smooth) directivity. If the on-axis and off-axis don't match well due to poor directivity, then the reflections end up coloring the perceived sound. There's also the fact that absorbers generally act essentially as low-pass filters of varying frequency depending on their material and thickness, and it's easy to actually cause issues by misapplying and/or overapplying them.

Note that there are those who disagree with this, although studies show a listener preference for early reflections by my understanding (again, as long as they aren't unduly coloring the perceived sound). Rather than applying absorbers everywhere (though you certainly want some to tamp down liveliness, but often standard furnishings like carpet/rug and furniture achieve that goal just fine on their own), better to just get a speaker with good directivity in the first place IMO. Cardioid speakers (like the Dutch & Dutch 8c) or placing quality speakers into the wall would be my preference.

If I've made any errors here, I'm sure someone with more expertise will be along to correct me. :)


My speakers are ancient.. here's how the ON/OFF axis response looks like w.r.t tweeter. This is from Stereophile..

Do you think that it will need treatments for the primary reflection points?
Screenshot_20250107_171405_Chrome.jpg




@MKR ... so the assertion and measurements are pointing to Cardioid and Linear Directivity as a better choice? This speaker should solve the SBIR and tonality changes because of primary reflections? Leaving only room modes which could be solved relatively easily..

This assumes that primary reflection points are bare and don't have thing such as bookshelves or other furniture that might introduce dips or peaks in reflections?
 
Looking to buy some nice speakers and I've been eyeing the used market. It seems that all of these options are in my budget if I'm willing to go used. I don't have any places near me to demo them, but I was curious if anyone's been able to compare these options previously. The wallet certainly says Genelec 8361A considering they're less than half the cost of the other 2 options. I definitely appreciate the aesthetics of the Blade One Metas and the B&W 801D4 more and was curious if there's also a big aural difference.

Musical genres I tend to listen to the most are techno, edm, pop, and R&B. Would greatly appreciate any input on this!

I don’t think this has been addressed yet, but it’s really important considering your music preferences, which involve a lot of bass and transients.

A) Your listening position is 18-19 ft or 5.8 m. from the speakers, correct?
B) Do you know how loud you typically listen?
 
Because early reflections are perceived as the same sound as the original source and therefore enhances what you might call the "spaciousness" of the sound. This only works well, however, when the off-axis sound that's getting reflected is substantially similar to the on-axis, hence wanting constant (or at least smooth) directivity. If the on-axis and off-axis don't match well due to poor directivity, then the reflections end up coloring the perceived sound. There's also the fact that absorbers generally act essentially as low-pass filters of varying frequency depending on their material and thickness, and it's easy to actually cause issues by misapplying and/or overapplying them.

Note that there are those who disagree with this, although studies show a listener preference for early reflections by my understanding (again, as long as they aren't unduly coloring the perceived sound). Rather than applying absorbers everywhere (though you certainly want some to tamp down liveliness, but often standard furnishings like carpet/rug and furniture achieve that goal just fine on their own), better to just get a speaker with good directivity in the first place IMO. Cardioid speakers (like the Dutch & Dutch 8c) or placing quality speakers into the wall would be my preference.

If I've made any errors here, I'm sure someone with more expertise will be along to correct me. :)

As a manufacturer of both cardioid and non-cardioid speakers I can confirm that this is often the case even with non-cardioid speakers as long as the off-axis response is relatively similar to the on-axis response.

That being said, reducing the overall decay in the room is almost always beneficial in my experience. So this is not a suggestion to prefer a reflective room.
 
Cardioid / constant directivity designs improve sound quality which is borne out by in room measurements compared to more conventional designs.
Keith
 
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For the sake of clarity I personally doubt your first paragraph‘s statement. Do you consider the directivity of an instrument, human voice included? There is something else going on, maybe pattern recognition? In case you have experience with most contemporary IEM transducers that bypass all reflections, even those from the individual‘s lugs (do you say that?), what is your opinion on the still spacious, clean sound?

Can you elaborate on what you doubt? I don't think there's much controversy in the message you replied to here. With regards to IEM / headpohones, I don't think they convey spaciousness and soundstage in the same way as a speaker with good soundstage. It does not sound the same.

If one is after unaltered sound right from the mixing console, would that enhance the fun? Look, with a caliber of KEF Blade or the top Genelecs, the sound may become anatomizing, dissecting, which may not be intended after all.

Not directed specifically to you, but I am not sure why we are talking about (or recommending) Genelec and Kef Blade as if they are one and the same. They both measure well, that doesn't (necessarily) mean they sound the same. The Kef Blade does not sound dissecting (assuming I understand what that means).

Would a sound engineer anticipate the taste of a consumer, him chosing a cheaper, modest speaker with just the right colorations for the genre?

This feels like a whole different topic, should it be a separate thread? But I think the answer to some extent is yes. :)
 
Hmm actually I may separate my room and set up a listening area for part of the room. The length of the listening area will be about 14’ long then, but I’ll probably be seated about 11’-12’ back from the speakers this way. I suppose I could get a carpet and some of those acoustic foam panels off Amazon and stick them onto the back wall behind my couch to help with reflections and onto one of the side walls. It’ll be an open space to the left though, but I think I heard open spaces aren’t too bad for listening environments as it doesn’t rebound back.

Looking at the price of everything, it appears that a used pair of KEF Blade One Metas and an amplifier from Buckeyes is very similar in price to a pair of Genelec 8351B and W371A so now I’m back to trying to figure out which will be my preferred setup.
 
Hmm actually I may separate my room and set up a listening area for part of the room. The length of the listening area will be about 14’ long then, but I’ll probably be seated about 11’-12’ back from the speakers this way. I suppose I could get a carpet and some of those acoustic foam panels off Amazon and stick them onto the back wall behind my couch to help with reflections and onto one of the side walls. It’ll be an open space to the left though, but I think I heard open spaces aren’t too bad for listening environments as it doesn’t rebound back.
You would be much better off with the open space directly behind the couch.
 
Can you elaborate on what you doubt? I don't think there's much controversy in the message you replied to here. With regards to IEM / headpohones, I don't think they convey spaciousness and soundstage in the same way as a speaker with good soundstage. It does not sound the same.
People say, that refelections of off axis sound of a speaker shall resemble the direct sound. yThe reasoning goes like „in that case the hearing is enabeld to identity the reflection as such, hence won‘t be irritated“.
In practical non-stereo situations a real soundsource may have any weired directivity, but still the hearing works. If the latter is true, the former is wrong. Or, please point me to what is missing in my argumentation.

Regarding the differentiation between KEF vs Genelec, or the lack of it, both are sound wise „perfect for the purpose“. That implies equivalence, logically. I even propose a vastly more humble approach, but that is in the eye of the beholder.

On clinical sound that needs to be translated using coloring speakers and (!) adopted listening volume and room size etc, that may be an extra topic. Here the musical preferences are well overseeable. I only wanted to give a hint.
 
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