Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

[amirm]

I was under the impression that you used the same test methods and HDMI source for the x3600h. If I recall correctly this is when you switched away from the NVIDIA source that was giving you issues. Did I assume incorrectly?

Not sure. It has been too long.

 

[Anterantz]

Can it be the case that this failure is only present in the 2020 models? The 3600h did not present this problem, did it? it could be a consequence of the hdmi 2.1 ... looking forward to the measurements of the 8500h

 

[amirm]

I asked D&M for official statement on the downmix issue and they were kind enough to provide one:

“Our engineering team is investigating the audio issue highlighted in the updated Audio Science review of the Denon AVR-4700H. This issue was observed when the receiver is set to a 2.0 speaker configuration and being sent a multichannel PCM signal. We will respond as soon as we identify the root cause. Thank you for your patience.”

 

[amirm]

Can it be the case that this failure is only present in the 2020 models? The 3600h did not present this problem, did it? it could be a consequence of the hdmi 2.1 ... looking forward to the measurements of the 8500h

I don't have one to confirm (3600 or 8500). But seeing how the marantz SR6104 had the same problem, it is likely that the issue exists in all Denon/Marantz products.

 

[peng]

I don't have one to confirm (3600 or 8500). But seeing how the marantz SR6104 had the same problem, it is likely that the issue exists in all Denon/Marantz products.

Now I see that I was wrong in saying you have measured two 2020 models but you have actually measured two X4700H so that's just one 2020 model.

The SR6014 is 2019, so since it has the same issue then the X3600H, being also 2019, must have the same issue. You didn't get the degradation only because you use toslink for the 32 tones test on the X3600H.

 

[peng]

I asked D&M for official statement on the downmix issue and they were kind enough to provide one:

“Our engineering team is investigating the audio issue highlighted in the updated Audio Science review of the Denon AVR-4700H. This issue was observed when the receiver is set to a 2.0 speaker configuration and being sent a multichannel PCM signal. We will respond as soon as we identify the root cause. Thank you for your patience.”

Good to know they are still responsive. That's encouraging, that means we still have hope.

 

[Ucftechguru]

The review is finished but waiting for D&M team to review and comment. This is the issue with running measurements past manufacturers. It significantly delays things. I sent them a note again today.

This is double trouble for me because I spent all that time to measure that AVR but can't post anything on it. Whereas I could have measured something else to share with you all.

Thanks for the update. I’m sure if you posted your review, they would respond much quicker to address any issues. Can you give us any hints like if the SR6014 overall performs somewhat similar to the Denon 3600 and AVR-4700H??

 

[simbloke]

Gene’s now responding that he’s NEVER seen anyone send a multi-channel signal to a receiver for stereo listening, which makes me ask a REW question. Maybe @amirm knows the technology behind the REW software. Since I’m configured for multiple-channel via HDMI and I test just one speaker via REW, is it sending a NULL signal on the other six channels? Thus my SINAD would be even worse than the original tested result? Thanks.

Yeah right. He can't possibly know what other people are doing - or more to the point what their operating systems and applications software are doing.

This looks like a software path that was never considered or tested until Amir came along. If more people were doing tests like this then more bugs would be found and fixed.

 

[peng]

Can you give us any hints like if the SR6014 overall performs somewhat similar to the Denon 3600 and AVR-4700H??

Pretty sure he did it in a subtle, indirect and perhaps unintended way already..

 

[BsdKurt]

Not sure. It has been too long.

This post is where you refer to fixing multichannel out on HDMI (after the initial testing):
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-av-receiver-review.12676/page-14#post-380325

I don't have one to confirm (3600 or 8500). But seeing how the marantz SR6104 had the same problem, it is likely that the issue exists in all Denon/Marantz products.

Ah, so likely not a model-year type issue.

I asked D&M for official statement on the downmix issue and they were kind enough to provide one:

“Our engineering team is investigating the audio issue highlighted in the updated Audio Science review of the Denon AVR-4700H. This issue was observed when the receiver is set to a 2.0 speaker configuration and being sent a multichannel PCM signal. We will respond as soon as we identify the root cause. Thank you for your patience.”

Is this limited to just multichannel PCM or does it affect Dolby Digital Plus?

 

[amirm]

Can you give us any hints like if the SR6014 overall performs somewhat similar to the Denon 3600 and AVR-4700H??

It doesn't unfortunately.

 

[amirm]

Is this limited to just multichannel PCM or does it affect Dolby Digital Plus?

I don't know. It will take some work to create such a stream without compression artifacts.

 

[SimpleTheater]

@amirm I'm officially authorizing the SR6014 review be published. To give you plausible deniability I'm letting you know I'm Kevin Duffy, the CEO of Sound United and just hiding behind this moniker.

 

[Vasr]

I asked D&M for official statement on the downmix issue and they were kind enough to provide one:

“Our engineering team is investigating the audio issue highlighted in the updated Audio Science review of the Denon AVR-4700H. This issue was observed when the receiver is set to a 2.0 speaker configuration and being sent a multichannel PCM signal. We will respond as soon as we identify the root cause. Thank you for your patience.”

This is HUGE!! They have now publicly acknowledged a problem exists. If this didn't come from marketing, their marketing guy would be blowing his head off right now for someone to have provided such a statement. This is very unusual for a corporation if it did come from their marketing/product management.

I think it would be fine to publish the Marantz review now noting this in a box right at the top and possibly holding off a final recommendation (may be a gagged panther? and why is the panther never wearing a mask?) one way or the other until this is settled (unless the unit is so bad that you would recommend against it regardless of this). I don't see a reason to wait for the above determination. It will likely take weeks to determine the problem, the possible fix, finalize the marketing spin, etc., before they would give you a publishable statement.

 

[amirm]

There is one item that is being investigated on the Marantz. THey need more information from me so I have to give that to them and see what they say. Almost all of the test results are confirmed to be correct by them.

 

[Dj7675]

The review is finished but waiting for D&M team to review and comment. This is the issue with running measurements past manufacturers. It significantly delays things. I sent them a note again today.

This is double trouble for me because I spent all that time to measure that AVR but can't post anything on it. Whereas I could have measured something else to share with you all.

While it is a different than your normal mode, I think Denon/Marantz has earned quite a bit of goodwill with how they handled things... working with you to get to the bottom of things, publishing their own measurements, and making a statement regarding the issue. Clearly, by how they responded they care enough to put time/resources into looking into things. Contrast that with other brands... With NAD Amir sent a message regarding the NAD T758V3 and heard nothing back. I sent a message to NAD and they told me they do not ever comment on 3rd party reviews. Also, if I am recalling correctly very little was heard back from Harman regarding the Arcam results. So I think when a major brand cares at the level they are showing, it seems to be a good thing to send them the bench test to see if it matches theirs.

 

[peng]

While it is a different than your normal mode, I think Denon/Marantz has earned quite a bit of goodwill with how they handled things... working with you to get to the bottom of things, publishing their own measurements, and making a statement regarding the issue. Clearly, by how they responded they care enough to put time/resources into looking into things. Contrast that with other brands... With NAD Amir sent a message regarding the NAD T758V3 and heard nothing back. I sent a message to NAD and they told me they do not ever comment on 3rd party reviews. Also, if I am recalling correctly very little was heard back from Harman regarding the Arcam results. So I think when a major brand cares at the level they are showing, it seems to be a good thing to send them the bench test to see if it matches theirs.

They upgraded that LSI/jammed pack AVR chip to a bunch of separate MSI multiplexor switch and vol control chip for both D+M and also upgraded the heavily IC based HDAM to discrete ones in 2017 following hometheaterhifi's extensive review and analysis by Dr. Rich on the AV8801. So evidently they had taken technical reviewers criticism and suggestions before and I fully expect they will do the same again if they are getting suggestions from ASR that they need to do more internal tests and should do something to maximize SINAD of the pre-outs at higher output level, as well as work on providing a more flexible pre-amp mode so that people can disconnect not just the left and right but also the very demanding center channel, and still be able to use the internal amps for the less demanding surround and height/Atmos channels.

Customers and reviewers feedback should be welcome by a company like D+M with open arms.

 

[kokishin]

Customers and reviewers feedback should be welcome by a company like D+M with open arms.

And welcomed by other review sites too such as AH. For them to criticize ASR exposes their own hypocrisy. BTW peng, this was not aimed at you. Just glommed onto your sentiment.

 

[Chromatischism]

And other review sites too such as AH. For them to criticize ASR exposes their own hypocrisy. BTW peng, this was not aimed at you. Just glommed onto your sentiment.

They have been. Remember they did a video on the 3600H and its preout performance that resulted in the units selling out everywhere.

 

[gtoblerone]

4700 vs. 3700 - for a 7.1.2 setup? Which would everyone go with? Is the 125 watt output vs. 105 watt output worth the jump to 4700? Or could the 3700 be a better receiver?