What to trust ear or measurement?

[Koeitje]

Leica is not essentially pairing a natural picture with accurate colors like real life.

Uh, it captures exactly what it sees (that's the point of shooting RAW). It is up to the user to tweak as pleased.

 

[mansr]

Uh, it captures exactly what it sees (that's the point of shooting RAW). It is up to the user to tweak as pleased.

That latter part is equivalent to mixing and mastering in audio.

 

[Koeitje]

That latter part is equivalent to mixing and mastering in audio.

Yes, true. So we agree that Leica cannot be compared to high-end audio .

 

[Frank Dernie]

think most people have gotten great pleasure from a flawed or lower-fi system.

My experience too.
I loved music before I knew hifi existed and whilst I do enjoy listening to super reproduction at home I would rather listen to music I like on a modest system to stuff I don't on a super system.
Somewhat why I don't like hifi shows, almost never any music I want to hear being played.

 

[Eurasian]

No. He doesn't know what he is hearing. He knows what he is perceiving based on biases (including commercial ones), using his imagination, preconceptions of price, designer reputation, etc. I have tested myself and countless other people this way. The conclusions are almost always wrong.

You have to first do proper listening where you are only judging sound. Only then you can make inferences regarding whether the sound is better or worse, preferred, or not.

I have listened to countless types of tube and high distortion audio products that people say color the sound to one's liking. In vast majority of times the colorations and distortions are beyond just about any audiophile to detect let alone characterize as being coloration. In other times, they make things sound terrible as it harsher, brighter, etc. which no self-respecting audiophile would admit is "good."

Steve used to be an audio salesman so let me tell you a story about that. At our company, Madrona Digital we get reps visiting us representing audio companies all the time. A new rep came over one day and I asked him about his background. He said he knew nothing about audio when he worked at a high-end audio company but quickly rose to be the #1 salesman. I asked him how he did that. He said he would have someone come to buy a cheap CD player (this is years ago). He would show him one but before the deal was done, he would take him to a high-end CD player. All he had to do was push the button to open the drawer. The smooth operation of that mechanical motion was enough to make the customer pay thousands of dollars more for that CD player!

Similar story from years before that: I was talking to engineering VP at a large high-end audio company about supporting new high-def video formats (they also built AV products). He asked if he could get our help to build their own drives. I asked why? He said the sound that the drawer made was everything to them! That they spent huge amount of time researching the gearing and motor used to give that wonderful feeling of quality of that drawer opening.

Here is the kicker: that company's product was what that rep was selling!!!

We eat with our eyes, chefs say. Same for audio. Don't put value on faulty listening tests. Don't be a victim of marketing. Don't believe in people who don't know what they are doing.

We once had a Porsche in my shop that had an in-dash cup holder that stopped working. The replacement assembly was well over $1000 for the part alone and my customer couldn't live without it. He was so impressed with it's slick action and his passenger's reaction when the thing unfolded that he spent several hundred dollars to have one shipped overnight from Germany!

 

[JeffS7444]

Yes, true. But this all started with somebody comparing Leica to high-end audio. I said that is not true, because Leica is a high quality product that creates high quality images. While high-end hifi seems to have a lot of bad performers.

No I did not compare Leica (or Mercedes Benz) to high end audio except in the sense of illustrating how powerfully our perceptions can be shaped by other factors, and you erred in trying to make broader generalizations. If pure performance is your objective, you have other options.

 

[Dichotome]

I think any listening comparison that is done without controls can be safely dismissed out of hand. I doubt you are suggesting he sold it based on the measurements from his array of 'extremely expensive test equipment.' Does he point out on the graphs where he messed with the signal to change the sound for the better? Would be easy to see where they were audibly different...if in fact they were in any audible sense.

Guided listening to sell a product isn't really useful as a reference.

What on earth are you talking about? The owner of the Chord offered to visit JW and compare it with JW’s DAC. JW wasn’t trying to sell him one, he was just curious to see how a hugely more expensive DAC compared to his prototype. It was the owner of the Chord who decided to place an order for JW’s DAC after hearing it.

 

[Koeitje]

No I did not compare Leica (or Mercedes Benz) to high end audio except in the sense of illustrating how powerfully our perceptions can be shaped by other factors, and you erred in trying to make broader generalizations. If pure performance is your objective, you have other options.

In what way does Leica shape perceptions?

 

[mansr]

In what way does Leica shape perceptions?

Through optical refraction, mostly.

 

[BDWoody]

What on earth are you talking about?

Uncontrolled listening test...that's what I'm talking about.
Meaningless.

I would posit that the guy with the $16k DAC is a bit of a pushover for a good salesman/story...might be why he has it in the first place.

 

[mansr]

I would posit that the guy with the $16k DAC is a bit of a pushover for a good salesman/story...might be why he has it in the first place.

What on Earth gave you that idea?

 

[BDWoody]

What on Earth gave you that idea?

Yeah...i don't know what I was thinking... I'm sure that was chosen after extensive DB/ABX...because it couldn't just be 'cause of a good story...that's crazy.

 

[JeffS7444]

In what way does Leica shape perceptions?

Did you not read my original post on the matter? It's the promotional video itself which I expressed admiration for.

 

[tomelex]

I only trust the measurements and my ears.
My ears are not those of Dan D 'Agostino, Steve Guttemberg.
Nor do I trust Amir ears.

Do you "really, really" trust you ears? Enough to bet BIG money on blind comparisons or abx testing? Not me buddy, especially when the systems are measurable close.

 

[Objectivist01]

In simple words:

if you are after a particular sound (neutral or colored) and if you know how the several parameters like thd, freq response and other similar stuff for that sound is, look for the measurements of several devices and decide which one matches it.

if you don’t have a clue about what the hell you are looking at then choose your poison by hearing. But problem with that is, it must be done in an environment you are really familiar with.

 

[oldsysop]

Can someone list the names of all the YouTube subjective bullshit reviewers ?

Paul McGowan .

 

[Robbo99999]

Consider the expensive and beautifully engineered bespoke loading mechanism for a TOTL CD player is all about the continuation of the premise that you are buying the best that company could make. Amir worked for Sony, he should know. The world's first player, the Sony CDP-101 had a solid metal drawer mechanism running on twin linear ball races- you could pick up the entire machine by the drawer and hold it in mid air, all 7.6kg of it.

Take any of their TOTL CD players of yore, they used the BU-10 die cast base unit, linear high speed motors for tracking, BSL sapphire bearing spindle motors and a loading/chucking mechanism that runs on polished stainless steel rods and ball bearings driven by decoupled twin motors.

Basically, they never wear out.

Those machines also produced absolute state of the art figures back in the day. Nothing came close. And, what's more, they still produce those same figures 30 years later. All with 16/44 content. My favourite single box machines are the 1990 X7esD, 17kg of absolutely magnificent Sony engineering. Apart from a few loading belts every 10 years or so, they are as new.

Let me tell you, the joy of a beautiful acoustically sealed loading mechanism silently and positively loading and unloading discs never gets old. Reading a TOC in less than half a second never gets old, and neither does track access anywhere on a disc in less than a second. Couple that with flawless technical performance and it doesn't get much better.

Sure, they may have cost nearly AU$2799 (USD $2,000) back in the day, but who got the better value, the guy who went through four or five plastic players, gave up and ended up using a DVD player for audio, or the guy who still gets joy, three decades on, from products built to last?

The guy who bought a $10 dollar USB CD player and ripped all his CD's in lossless format and checked they were bit perfect using something like PerfectTunes!

 

[Sal1950]

I don't trust my ears to make decisions on things in which the differences are fairly subtle, that's what measurements are for and how I will usually chose my audio purchases. In my racing days, I didn't trust my "seat of the pants" impression on how any particular modification affected the vehicle.
That's what you have the tools such as a dyno, dragstrip, or roadrace course for and the timing measurements from them. Too many outside things will effect perceptions.
If you think your smarter than that, put your money on your perceptions.

 

[oldsysop]

Do you "really, really" trust you ears? Enough to bet BIG money on blind comparisons or abx testing? Not me buddy, especially when the systems are measurable close.

I mean I trust my ears to determine whether I like it or not. Only that.
If I like it I would never say that it sounds good, only that I like it. And I know that only works for me.
The same happens to me with the visual.
I like this :

And I don't like this:

But I would never say that what I like is better. It's only better for me.

 

[tomelex]

I mean I trust my ears to determine whether I like it or not. Only that.
If I like it I would never say that it sounds good, only that I like it. And I know that only works for me.
The same happens to me with the visual.
I like this :

And I don't like this:

But I would never say that what I like is better. It's only better for me.

Oh yeah baby, that Sansui looks impressive! Looks do count (for something, sometimes). I was just saying that I might trust my ears when I compare say two different systems playing the same recording, but I can not guarantee that if I come back 3 months later I will pick the same system as I originally did, my ears and my brain and my feelings are not accurate enough. Yes, I do know what I like when I hear it, I just don't believe I always know I hear what I hear. For example, sometimes I am in the mood for the SET amp, sometimes I am not, sometimes I want the Sennheizer headphones and sometimes the other brand. +++That is enough right there for me to not believe my ears, as something else inside me is telling me what I want to hear, not my ears.+++