Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Mart68]

Currently I'm deploying a DAC from 1989. Reverb tails reproduce just fine.

I'm amused by the idea that only 'audio professionals' are aware of such things.

You don't need to know how the equipment works to be able to mix and master, just how it is operated. This distinction seems to be missed when people use the opinions of studio engineers as appeal to authority. Most of them don't know any more about how audio replay works than the man in the street

 

[KSTR]

Currently I'm deploying a DAC from 1989. Reverb tails reproduce just fine.

I'm amused by the idea that only 'audio professionals' are aware of such things.

You don't need to know how the equipment works to be able to mix and master, just how it is operated. This distinction seems to be missed when people use the opinions of studio engineers as appeal to authority. Most of them don't know any more about how audio replay works than the man in the street

In Germany at least, you need to have a university degree to call yourself "Tonmeister". Half of that very demanding degree is about "how stuff works" from the ground up, the other half is musical education. If you only know how gear is operated you'll never be anything more than just that, an operator, lightyears away from a true engineer.

Among the real engineers, when somebody has that foundation plus, say, 30,000+ hrs of experience under their belt, I'm taking their words seriously as I've been demonstrated a few times listening skills that would seem outright impossible to the average ASR visitor or participant and thus can never be a topic of meaningful discussion here, sadly (I can live with that, and ASR is still a site of valuable information for me).

 

[Mart68]

In Germany at least, you need to have a university degree to call yourself "Tonmeister". Half of that very demanding degree is about "how stuff works" from the ground up, the other half is musical education. If you only know how gear is operated you'll never be anything more than just that, an operator, lightyears away from a true engineer.

Among the real engineers, when somebody has that foundation plus, say, 30,000+ hrs of experience under their belt, I'm taking their words seriously as I've been demonstrated a few times listening skills that would seem outright impossible to the average ASR visitor or participant and thus can never be a topic of meaningful discussion here, sadly (I can live with that, and ASR is still a site of valuable information for me).

I'm always happy to pay attention to a genuine expert and although I'm nothing of the sort myself I know enough to be able to distnguish them from the bullshitters.

It's not all so cut and dried. I know guitar players who have way more than 30,000 hours and could strip and rebuild a guitar blindfolded but they'll insist they can hear the tonal differences of different woods inlaid in the fretboard.

Although they've never tested this ability in controlled conditions they're still convinced that they have it.

When it comes to extraordinary claims the default position should always be scepticism and a request for data and/or evidence. Regardless of the background of the person making the claim.

 

[SIY]

Amir does not do the -100 or -90 dB sine test but it can be inferred from his other test for example linearity that this must be the case .

Actually, it can be more than inferred. See this, for example.

 

[Mnyb]

Actually, it can be more than inferred. See this, for example.

Very good , I don’t have the know how to reverse engineer the measurement

What I meant ( as English is not my first language ) is that amir has a linearity measurement and it “shows the same thing “ as I as layman sees it if the DAC is linear in a >20bit range and also has low noise it should be able to pass the low level sine test too .

 

[KSTR]

When it comes to extraordinary claims the default position should always be scepticism and a request for data and/or evidence. Regardless of the background of the person making the claim.

We can certainly agree on this.
It all depends on what we define as extraordinary claim and within which context, of course.

 

[Mart68]

It all depends on what we define as extraordinary claim and within which context, of course.

It does, but the bar needs to be set quite low.

 

[pkane]

Thanks. I checked my notes. The waveform I shared was 30uVrms, which at 5.2V max I think is -105dBFS. What system are you using to capture a visual waveform? And what preamp for the +60dB gain?

I used -100dBFS at 4.1v max (0.0dB on DO300 display). This was amplified by an E1DA APU at +60dB setting and recorded by E1DA Cosmos ADC (https://e1dashz.wixsite.com/index/cosmos-apu and https://www.linsoul.com/products/e1da-cosmos-adc).

 

[pkane]

Thanks. I checked my notes. The waveform I shared was 30uVrms, which at 5.2V max I think is -105dBFS. What system are you using to capture a visual waveform? And what preamp for the +60dB gain?

Here's +2.0dB setting (5v max) and -105dBFS 1k test signal with DO300:

 

[signalpath]

I used -100dBFS at 4.1v max (0.0dB on DO300 display). This was amplified by an E1DA APU at +60dB setting and recorded by E1DA Cosmos ADC (https://e1dashz.wixsite.com/index/cosmos-apu and https://www.linsoul.com/products/e1da-cosmos-adc).

Thanks. As long as you're not using the "notch" inputs, that setup looks good. The DO300 website cites 5.2VFS. For visual waveform prints, I think it's time to jettison the trusty AP2722 and start using an external ADC. We're in fact working on an advanced multi-path ADC currently. This is such a great forum!

 

[pkane]

Thanks. As long as you're not using the "notch" inputs, that setup looks good. The DO300 website cites 5.2VFS. For visual waveform prints, I think it's time to jettison the trusty AP2722 and start using an external ADC. We're in fact working on an advanced multi-path ADC currently. This is such a great forum!

No notch, just the 60dB gain preamp.

 

[signalpath]

No notch, just the 60dB gain preamp.

Good. What are you using to generate the initial digital sine wave? Also, how is the vertical scale interpreted (the "-60 to -50" scale)? -- what waveform viewer program is that? How does this scale translate into Vrms?

 

[pkane]

Good. What are you using to generate the initial digital sine wave? Also, how is the vertical scale interpreted (the "-60 to -50" scale)? -- what waveform viewer program is that? How does this scale translate into Vrms?

My own Multitone Analyzer (MTA) software: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...t-multitone-loopback-analyzer-software.27844/

The waveform scale for that plot is ADC dBFS. Actual voltage at the output of the DAC with +2dB setting and -105dBFS sine wave was 29.2µV

 

[pkane]

Good. What are you using to generate the initial digital sine wave? Also, how is the vertical scale interpreted (the "-60 to -50" scale)? -- what waveform viewer program is that? How does this scale translate into Vrms?

Just for fun, here's that same DO300 at +2dB (red) with -120dBFS generated signal (blue). Units are volts at the output of the DAC:

 

[krabapple]

Currently I'm deploying a DAC from 1989. Reverb tails reproduce just fine.

I'm amused by the idea that only 'audio professionals' are aware of such things.

You don't need to know how the equipment works to be able to mix and master, just how it is operated. This distinction seems to be missed when people use the opinions of studio engineers as appeal to authority. Most of them don't know any more about how audio replay works than the man in the street

Indeed.

Audible (at enhanced levels) degradation of 'reverb tails' is an issue when there is insufficient bit depth ('resolution') and/or truncation has occurred (e.g. conversion without dither).

Neither has been an issue for decades.

 

[AVphile]

This is beginning to get really annoying — reading posts of those ignorant self-professed experts. This past weekend, I attended AXPONA. Prior to coming, I had arranged to have a one hour private session with the CEO/founder of Grimm Audio — primarily to explore the capabilities of the company’s new MU2 DAC. In particular, I brought along three of my CDs (Take Five/Dave Brubeck; Heart Shaped World/Chris Issak; and Beethoven’s 9th Symphony/Cleveland Orchestra) to see how this Bricasti DAC performed in reproducing specific challenging elements of a track from each disc in comparison to the two DACs I use currently. At, present I have a Wadia CD transport and a Wadia 2000 DAC as well as a Theta Digital Casablanca V DAC and a Theta Digital Compli CD/SACD transport. The Wadia components were considered stat-of-the-art 20 years ago; the Theta Digital DAC was unquestionably state-of-the-art five years ago. My power amps are two mono McIntosh 611s (600 watts), my speakers are Revel Ultima Studios, and my cabling is all Wireworld Eclipse and Silver Eclipse. Overall, my audiophile friends think my audio system is really quite good.

With the Take Five track, I wanted to hear how the opening notes of the alto sax sounded, but more importantly how lifelike did the drum set solo sound when reproduced by the MU2. Using my Theta system, the alto sax sounds pretty good. The drums, however, are a mixed bag; the snare drums comes across nicely tight, but the toms decreasingly so, and the bass drum “thunky”. With the Bricasti DAC, the alto sax was vividly lifelike and all of the drums sounded like a professional drum set. Moreover, I could easily tell how the five drums were positioned — something I had never experienced previously with either of my DACs.

In Chris Isaak’s song Wicked Game, a female chorus very softly sings “this world is only gonna break your heart”. With neither of my two DACS, am I able to clearly hear all of these words. In comparison, with the MU2 DAC, every word — still sung softly — was crystal clear. Frankly, I wa amazed.

Lastly, The 4th movement of Beethoven’s 9th symphony was played. Heretofore, all I could make out were mass choruses; and the positioning of the lead singers were never sharply defined. With the Grimm Audio DAC, I could tell these choruses consisted of numerous individual singers and the lead singers were clearly positioned in front of them. Listening to all of the singing “Ode to Joy” was simply astounding.

The point I am trying to make is that all DACs are not the same, and the best of them help enable a listening experience truly better than most people will ever hear from a CD or streamed. Frankly, until this AXPONA experience, I had no idea a CD recording could sound so good.

 

[amirm]

The point I am trying to make is that all DACs are not the same,

When you combine your ear with your eyes, sure, they will be completely different. After all, no two DACs look the same, have the same marketing story, etc. Use just your ear and the situation changes drastically. For one, you will be saving a ton of money!

 

[amirm]

This is beginning to get really annoying — reading posts of those ignorant self-professed experts.

You are "posting" things. We are analyzing and telling you exactly what the gear is doing. Don't confuse the two. We follow reliable methods to determine fidelity. You rely on your perception that is trivially fooled by your brain to manufacture things. Until you learn this, you will have a much lower checking account balance as a result of chasing fantasies in audio....

 

[Blockader]

This is beginning to get really annoying — reading posts of those ignorant self-professed experts. This past weekend, I attended AXPONA. Prior to coming, I had arranged to have a one hour private session with the CEO/founder of Grimm Audio — primarily to explore the capabilities of the company’s new MU2 DAC. In particular, I brought along three of my CDs (Take Five/Dave Brubeck; Heart Shaped World/Chris Issak; and Beethoven’s 9th Symphony/Cleveland Orchestra) to see how this Bricasti DAC performed in reproducing specific challenging elements of a track from each disc in comparison to the two DACs I use currently. At, present I have a Wadia CD transport and a Wadia 2000 DAC as well as a Theta Digital Casablanca V DAC and a Theta Digital Compli CD/SACD transport. The Wadia components were considered stat-of-the-art 20 years ago; the Theta Digital DAC was unquestionably state-of-the-art five years ago. My power amps are two mono McIntosh 611s (600 watts), my speakers are Revel Ultima Studios, and my cabling is all Wireworld Eclipse and Silver Eclipse. Overall, my audiophile friends think my audio system is really quite good.

With the Take Five track, I wanted to hear how the opening notes of the alto sax sounded, but more importantly how lifelike did the drum set solo sound when reproduced by the MU2. Using my Theta system, the alto sax sounds pretty good. The drums, however, are a mixed bag; the snare drums comes across nicely tight, but the toms decreasingly so, and the bass drum “thunky”. With the Bricasti DAC, the alto sax was vividly lifelike and all of the drums sounded like a professional drum set. Moreover, I could easily tell how the five drums were positioned — something I had never experienced previously with either of my DACs.

In Chris Isaak’s song Wicked Game, a female chorus very softly sings “this world is only gonna break your heart”. With neither of my two DACS, am I able to clearly hear all of these words. In comparison, with the MU2 DAC, every word — still sung softly — was crystal clear. Frankly, I wa amazed.

Lastly, The 4th movement of Beethoven’s 9th symphony was played. Heretofore, all I could make out were mass choruses; and the positioning of the lead singers were never sharply defined. With the Grimm Audio DAC, I could tell these choruses consisted of numerous individual singers and the lead singers were clearly positioned in front of them. Listening to all of the singing “Ode to Joy” was simply astounding.

The point I am trying to make is that all DACs are not the same, and the best of them help enable a listening experience truly better than most people will ever hear from a CD or streamed. Frankly, until this AXPONA experience, I had no idea a CD recording could sound so good.

cool story bro

 

[napfkuchen]

... my cabling is all Wireworld Eclipse and Silver Eclipse. Overall, my audiophile friends think my audio system is really quite good.

You should not go cheap on cables. That's the problem.